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Starship Design Bureau

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Starship Design Bureau Starfleet Design Bureau
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LunaMoth said:
Eh science doesn't really matter on this ship, unless science means scanners or the ability to quickly swap phaser frequencies. This ship is meant to fight borg right?
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Somewhat, but I'm not sure that's a big mark against science bays. For one thing, I think there's a strong argument that science does mean better scanners and ability to do technobabble, that's like half the point of the science score. For another, it's not like an extra cargo bay is any more useful in fighting the Borg than the labs. In fact, based on the whole scanners thing, I think it's actively worse than the labs for fighting the Borg, it's mostly just useful for turning the ship into a budget freighter. Which is valuable in its own right don't get me wrong, but isn't making it more of a warship.
 
So, the ship is already capable of science. It's Starfleet standard. But is extra science labs really going to be that useful compared to giving the ship a decent cargo capacity? As we saw with the Reliant, cargo shipping is still a much task capacity for Starfleet ships, and right now I don't think this ship is able to carry much more than it's own basic supplies. Sure, it could be better at science missions, but as a Starfleet ship it should already be capable of basic science stuff, while it currently isn't capable of any missions that require moving cargo, of which there must be plenty of. I see the extra cargo bay as a way to increase the kinds of missions we send this ship on, and that versatility likely will count more for how much this ship is manufactured and used.
 
Derpmind said:
So, the ship is already capable of science. It's Starfleet standard. But is extra science labs really going to be that useful compared to giving the ship a decent cargo capacity? As we saw with the Reliant, cargo shipping is still a much task capacity for Starfleet ships, and right now I don't think this ship is able to carry much more than it's own basic supplies. Sure, it could be better at science missions, but as a Starfleet ship it should already be capable of basic science stuff, while it currently isn't capable of any missions that require moving cargo, of which there must be plenty of. I see the extra cargo bay as a way to increase the kinds of missions we send this ship on, and that versatility likely will count more for how much this ship is manufactured and used.
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I mean, that's partially true given the computer cores, but I don't think it has any default science labs. It already has a cargo bay though.

@Sayle, can ye confirm or deny, would the Saber have a science lab of some sort installed either way, or is this vote for a science lab period?
 
7th Hex said:
Other way around actually, we'd run out of casings before we'd run out of antimatter. But given that the antimatter is also the limiting factor on our mission duration, that implies throwing on an extra cargo bay to stuff full of torpedo casing and using the antimatter to fill them instead of as fuel will reduce the maximum mission duration.
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Given what we're building this ship for, that might be a tradeoff Starfleet will take from time to time.

[X] Utility-focused. (Extra Cargo Bay)
 
We have created what is in many ways a Federation version of a Bird-of-Prey. But a lot deadlier thanks to the technology. Foreward firing arc that is crazy powerful and high speed. The problem is that it has no aft firing ability. On the Bird-of-Prey that is not too crazy an issue thanks to its ability to cloak: it essentially chooses when and the situation in which it engages.

The Federation does not have that ability. This ship really should not be operating on the border alone as it has a blind spot in its rear. Looking at the description, the science lab is an optomistic view: that the ship would eventually be able to do science on the border. Which is nice, but looks at a future where the Star Fleet is rebuilt. At which point in time, we should have dedicated science ships out.

If we design the ship to service the interior of the Federation and as a rapid-response ship, that actually would be better. One: it would provide security within the border. But two: it would free up other ships that are more mission-specific for science to be able go to the border and do the science. If you look at Star Trek, there are a lot of times the Enterprise is ferrying around things like grain (Quadotriticale) or Colonists (A Colony of Potentially Offensive Stereotypical Irish People?). If we have a class of ships that can do the ferrying and the fixing in the Federation, the science ships or the flagships like the Enterprise can deal with the larger missions.

Starfleet is currently working towards more mission specific designs.

Sayle said:
The same applies to most other starships designed over the last fifty years, all of which were made with the focus of being able to defend themselves rather than making their armament a core focus of the design, and often capable of multiple mission profiles with a great deal of competence. Which has been wonderful, but clearly that era of largess is at an end.
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We have designed something that could be an amazing rapid-responder, combat support, and a logistical transporter (also potentially troop transporter). Let's help it to reach its potential by focusing on utility.

On a side note: I am curious what a Dahar Master like Kang would be able to do with a Federation style of Bird-of-Prey.
 
[X] Science-focused. (Science Lab)

KNakamura said:
My dry opinion is that Starfleet has a problem, and this period exposes it. Yes, having ships capable of doing border science is great. But there's a real case of "Starfleet wants it's cake and to eat it too" in designs. A Miranda replacement would need more budget, flat out, to do what it did. I'm not actually opposed to this, but I think we should look to make a more rounded design in a Heavy Crusier, which has the hull budget for it.
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Here is the thing; in Startrek a ship's science score might as well be it's max health value when exploring the unknown. And Federation's claimed space has a lot of unknowns.
 
Derpmind said:
So, the ship is already capable of science. It's Starfleet standard. But is extra science labs really going to be that useful compared to giving the ship a decent cargo capacity? As we saw with the Reliant, cargo shipping is still a much task capacity for Starfleet ships, and right now I don't think this ship is able to carry much more than it's own basic supplies. Sure, it could be better at science missions, but as a Starfleet ship it should already be capable of basic science stuff, while it currently isn't capable of any missions that require moving cargo, of which there must be plenty of. I see the extra cargo bay as a way to increase the kinds of missions we send this ship on, and that versatility likely will count more for how much this ship is manufactured and used.
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Jensaarai said:
I mean, that's partially true given the computer cores, but I don't think it has any default science labs. It already has a cargo bay though.

@Sayle, can ye confirm or deny, would the Saber have a science lab of some sort installed either way, or is this vote for a science lab period?
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An extra/bigger science labs will improve the ship's Science score, which is important because science is something every Federation starship is called upon to do. Having a higher score makes it better in this core capacity, whilst having a lower rating makes it worse. Not having at least a decent science rating - which a ship of this size with no dedicated science facilities will not have by default - greatly limits its utility as a starship, where scientific missions are a core part of the mission profile. Cargo is useful, to be sure, but upgrading this design from "niche starship that is useful basically only for patrol and combat" to "plausible successor to the Miranda" is vastly more useful.

This is a lesson we already should have learnt with the Reliant project, and I really hope we aren't going to have to learn it again here.
 
I really do not think at all that scientific missions are core anymore than humanitarian ones are and cargo leans that way. If anything, I think we should look to wet navy ships which often use a ton of auxiliary ships for these functions.
 
Skippy said:
An extra/bigger science labs will improve the ship's Science score, which is important because science is something every Federation starship is called upon to do. Having a higher score makes it better in this core capacity, whilst having a lower rating makes it worse. Not having at least a decent science rating - which a ship of this size with no dedicated science facilities will not have by default - greatly limits its utility as a starship, where scientific missions are a core part of the mission profile. Cargo is useful, to be sure, but upgrading this design from "niche starship that is useful basically only for patrol and combat" to "plausible successor to the Miranda" is vastly more useful.

This is a lesson we already should have learnt with the Reliant project, and I really hope we aren't going to have to learn it again here.
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The issue is this isn't the era of generalist designs. You're looking at the old era of designing paradigm and assuring us it's the same thing. It isn't. Starfleet is having to make more focused designs over the generalists of the past. In large part due to the utter ass kicking they got at Wolf 359. Furthermore your assertion this will replace the Mirana is utterly absurd. Starfleet is as likely going to replace those as the USAF is going to replace the B-52. Is it talked about endlessly? Yes. Is it ever done? No. Because the Miranda is so incredibly commonplace and piss easy to make that they can make an entire batch as a rounding error of the budget as compared to the Ambassadors or worse the Galaxies. We're never, EVER going to be able to make this a Miranda successor simply due to the combat focus and use of prototypical technology some of which is entirely experimental.


So instead, we have to look to doctrinal use. This ship is terrible for border patrol. It's got a massive blind spot and limited torpedo firing arc. It's Fast but it's not THAT fast. If something on the border is larger than it, has a cloak or simply runs in packs its goose is cooked. Science is explicitly for having it be a border patroller. That's not the best way for it to be used when not on a combat mission. Being a QRF with the ability to carry things is far more useful and less likely to get this bird shot out the void.

Would Science be good to have? Absolutely, but we lack the space and this is not going to be a good border patrol craft. As a QRF unit, which was BADLY needed at Wolf 359? It will excel. This is not the era of generalist design, Focused use is preferred and this craft does still have at least some scientific capability as per word of QM.
 
KNakamura said:
I really do not think at all that scientific missions are core anymore than humanitarian ones are and cargo leans that way. If anything, I think we should look to wet navy ships which often use a ton of auxiliary ships for these functions.
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Wet navy ships just aren't similar in that way to starfleet doctrine. If an aircraft carrier finds something odd it can probably get experts there in less than 24 hours if they needed to, along with enough equipment to take samples that could easily be sent to a lab on ground. The same cannot be said for Federation ships that are much further from support even if they're capable of sending a message far enough to arrange it in the first place
 
KNakamura said:
I really do not think at all that scientific missions are core anymore than humanitarian ones are and cargo leans that way. If anything, I think we should look to wet navy ships which often use a ton of auxiliary ships for these functions.
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Wet navies enjoy a much smaller operational sphere in comparison to the vast interstellar distances that starships travel. How many times has the plot of an episode been "there's no one else, we're the closest ship in x light-years?"

Along with the fact that Starfleet loves their multirole ships, which have been proven time and time again that it works.
 
But in this Era Starfleet is no longer in love with multi role ships. And this ship would be not-great in a multi role capacity even if they were. Frankly, this ship should not be at the border alone.

It could be a great Rapid Response Force, if it has some more cargo space.
 
Jensaarai said:
Wet navies enjoy a much smaller operational sphere in comparison to the vast interstellar distances that starships travel. How many times has the plot of an episode been "there's no one else, we're the closest ship in x light-years?"

Along with the fact that Starfleet loves their multirole ships, which have been proven time and time again that it works.
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.. yeah, thats writer fiat. Bluntly, a navy operating that way can't retain control of space. Having auxiliaries at space-bases being able to be dispatched works within Federation space.
 
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