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Starship Design Bureau

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strictpig said:
This ship was never going to be anything but a combat vessel. Giving it more space for extra supplies for a longer patrols and ranges makes more sense.

A science lab while useful, would be too small to do anything but tell you to call another ship that has better science labs and equipment.
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Extra cargo bays do not increase patrol ranges or duration. The limiting factor there is antimatter in-quest.

The Reliant-class can actually carry more cargo than the Renaissance-class while being smaller, but even despite also having half the crew it needs supply a Reliant still has only 2/3s of the Renaissance's certified patrol duration. Which is notably measured in "months from refueling station" not "months from resupply." The one option we've gotten to increase patrol duration is the extra antimatter storage for the Reliant and Ambassador.
 
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[X] Utility-focused. (Extra Cargo Bay)

We can just create a science ship for science needs, the Federation badly needs a workhorse ship to service interior and patrol needs.
 
EternalStruggle said:
[X] Science-focused. (Science Lab)

We already tried an all-Utility design with the Reliant. Starfleet A. Didn't like it and B. Still has the ones it did build for interior ops. Let's make a proper Light Cruiser here.
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A. that was a time more focused on not being at all-out war. This new ship is a direct response for a statistically significant amount of the fleet getting annihilated. While the feared invasion isn't coming, we don't know that yet.
B. The interior ops fleet are mostly MIRANDAS or at least their renovated and not much improved descendants, something to which the Borg can and will respond to with a LOL, LMAO even. They were utterly useless against the Borg and are horribly outdated back before we had the time skip. They are basically armed freighters with a budget science lab now, at best.
 
strictpig said:
A science lab while useful, would be too small to do anything but tell you to call another ship that has better science labs and equipment.
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That is the case with whatever science facilities the design already has. I say this as a reminder, because all Federation starships - yes, even the Defiant - have science labs. It is a basic job requirement for all starships under normal circumstances to be able to do science. If we choose to put in extra science labs, then it will definitely lead to a meaningful increase in our Science rating, because this isn't a trap option. The update outright states that adding in labs would let the ship do "border science" - presumably a lot of routine surveys and the like. That meaningfully frees up the time and resources of our more capable science ships, which are not infinite.

To be clear, I'm not saying this because you have to vote for science or anything - although I think we should, and voting for cargo bays here will be repeating our mistake with the Reliant class. But it is important not to get into the mindset of assuming the other voting option does not actually provide the benefit it says it does. Adding cargo bays certainly will add some versatility to this design - I don't think it's the best choice given the size of the ship, but it's possible to imagine it coming in handy. Equally, adding science labs will make this ship far more capable at the scientific missions it will constantly be asked to perform for the entirety of its service life as a Federation Starship.
 
Skippy said:
That is the case with the singular science lab the ship already has. I say this as a reminder, because all Federation starships - yes, even the Defiant - have science labs. It is a basic job requirement for all starships under normal circumstances to be able to do science. If we choose to put in extra science labs, then it will definitely lead to a meaningful increase in our Science rating, because this isn't a trap option. The update outright states that adding in labs would let the ship do "border science" - presumably a lot of routine surveys and the like. That meaningfully frees up the time and resources of our more capable science ships, which are not infinite.

To be clear, I'm not saying this because you have to vote for science or anything - although I think we should, and voting for cargo bays here will be repeating our mistake with the Reliant class. But it is important not to get into the mindset of assuming the other voting option does not actually provide the benefit it says it does. Adding cargo bays certainly will add some versatility to this design - I don't think it's the best choice given the size of the ship, but it's possible to imagine it coming in handy. Equally, adding science labs will make this ship far more capable at the scientific missions it will constantly be asked to perform for the entirety of its service life as a Federation Starship.
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My dry opinion is that Starfleet has a problem, and this period exposes it. Yes, having ships capable of doing border science is great. But there's a real case of "Starfleet wants it's cake and to eat it too" in designs. A Miranda replacement would need more budget, flat out, to do what it did. I'm not actually opposed to this, but I think we should look to make a more rounded design in a Heavy Crusier, which has the hull budget for it.
 
DecaffeinatedOwl said:
What about spares/raw feedstock for repairs? Torpedo magazines?
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While spare parts remains a factor for post-battle maintenance specifically, for torpedoes the last time the subject came up Sayle explicitly said that we'd run out of antimatter for them before we run out of casings. Adding a second cargo bay (and this is a vote to add a second cargo bay) won't increase our torpedo capacity by even a single torp.
 
It's so cute! lil fishy!

[X] Science-focused. (Science Lab)

I can see this being a fast response ship for unknowns in the future, safe with the knowledge it can handle itself.
 
KNakamura said:
My dry opinion is that Starfleet has a problem, and this period exposes it. Yes, having ships capable of doing border science is great. But there's a real case of "Starfleet wants it's cake and to eat it too" in designs. A Miranda replacement would need more budget, flat out, to do what it did. I'm not actually opposed to this, but I think we should look to make a more rounded design in a Heavy Crusier, which has the hull budget for it.
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Starfleet absolutely has its cake and eats it too, just from the numerous amazing generalist/all-rounder designs they put out that can go toe-to-toe with dedicated warships and pull off victories. Sometimes because of their science labs. :V

Also, like @Skippy said, even the Defiant, the warshippiest warship that Starfleet ever warship'd, has science labs. Because war isn't all Starfleet builds for, even when shit gets serious like with the Borg or the Dominion.
 
Question, was the Saber in Canon meant to operate in fleets/Convoys? Because I'm trying to look up what it was actually used for, and it looks like it was almost always seen with at least one other ship.
 
KNakamura said:
My dry opinion is that Starfleet has a problem, and this period exposes it. Yes, having ships capable of doing border science is great. But there's a real case of "Starfleet wants it's cake and to eat it too" in designs. A Miranda replacement would need more budget, flat out, to do what it did. I'm not actually opposed to this, but I think we should look to make a more rounded design in a Heavy Crusier, which has the hull budget for it.
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I think that whatever the merits of the underlying doctrine here, if the quest keeps attempting to essentially force Starfleet to accept a ship doctrine fundamentally at odds with its guiding principles, then the quest is going to lose that fight every single time, just as we did over the Reliant. This ship is small in relative terms, but keep in mind it massively outmasses a Miranda or the original Constitution, which were perfectly capable of balancing weaponry and scientific facilities.

I would also note that, even if the quest believes that the "optimal" choice is building small single-role combatants like the Romulans and Klingons do, which are incapable of doing science, Starfleet's choice not to do this has not exactly hurt its economic or technological prospects. Indeed, the Federation is clearly positioned as the 800lb gorilla of the Alpha Quadrant by the end of the Dominion War. So it seems like it works out for them.

Is that just authorial favouritism? Faster technological growth due to every ship contributing towards pure research? The ability to pull out Tech of the Week on the fly coming in handy when dealing with the exigencies of a universe which seems to have strange perils hanging around every corner*? Maybe all of the above, but whatever it is... it works.

Swimming upstream against a defining feature of the setting we're in does not seem that likely to result in success to me.


*(If you watch The Lower Decks, this seems to be true even for run-of-the-mill workhorse starships, not just protagonist ships like the Enterprise or Voyager.)
 
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