- Location
- Russia
Also that one Orokin botanist pacifist that ran away from the weapons development lab and accidentally became a tree.
Space Ninja Summer Camp ( Warframe/Worm )
- Thread starter Sleethr
- Start date
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
Well, she was working under Margulis, so that would make her an Archimedean of sorts...
So...
OTOH I think that when most of us think Orokin we are talking about the leadership caste, the seven, their executors and those in lesser position of powers
- Location
- Israel
The Seven were the leaders of the orokin, everyone else were slaves at the threat of brain-splosion or fully conscious minds locked inside a body eager to follow the orders of its masters, all the while they are screaming at their cruel fate internally. But that is not to say there weren't... Elite society that were just as cruel as them.
Huh, now that I think about it, being turned into a Cephalon the way Ordis was probably considered a REALLY merciful sort of punishment/atonement.
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- Location
- Moonbase
So, just a thought: does Earth Bet just not have stories that paint AI in a positive light for this fic? In the Dragon-PoV chapter(Reunion 6.0) it mentioned only like a single "good" General Artificial Intelligence character in a work(I think it was Cortana?), but this seems very wrong, especially since there was plenty of good GAI before major historical changes would have occured(we still get the Star Wars Prequels, if a bit different, after all). Throw in Aleph movies, games and literature and the list should be a lot higher.
Some examples:
Number 5 from Short Circuit is a robot who goes off the rails, but to become a pacifist.
Tron and Star Wars both feature sophont AI who work for good, as well as AI who work for evil, making them just more "people".
Isaac Asimov, famous for his Three Laws, actually SUBVERTS those laws in his work I, Robot(the book, not the awful Will Smith movie that butchered the source material). He shows why they would not work, and should not be implemented, and even ends the book with a powerful benevolent AI taking over Earth and making life better for everyone. He even has one short story where a single AI ascends both itself and humanity as close to godhood as it can, and then ushers in a new Big Bang when it cracks how to reverse entropy.
Iain Banks' Culture Series provides a society run on the back of godlike, independent AI, who strive for a more peaceful universe.
Star Trek TNG has Data, who is just a sweetie focused a bit too much on logic.
And that's just works I'm familiar with. I know it happened a while ago, but it still breaks my suspension of disbelief that Dragon would be unable to find any of those listed works, or the many others where the AI is the good guy, and even helping out in spite of its programming.
Is this just the author being unfamiliar with pro-AI fiction?
Some examples:
Number 5 from Short Circuit is a robot who goes off the rails, but to become a pacifist.
Tron and Star Wars both feature sophont AI who work for good, as well as AI who work for evil, making them just more "people".
Isaac Asimov, famous for his Three Laws, actually SUBVERTS those laws in his work I, Robot(the book, not the awful Will Smith movie that butchered the source material). He shows why they would not work, and should not be implemented, and even ends the book with a powerful benevolent AI taking over Earth and making life better for everyone. He even has one short story where a single AI ascends both itself and humanity as close to godhood as it can, and then ushers in a new Big Bang when it cracks how to reverse entropy.
Iain Banks' Culture Series provides a society run on the back of godlike, independent AI, who strive for a more peaceful universe.
Star Trek TNG has Data, who is just a sweetie focused a bit too much on logic.
And that's just works I'm familiar with. I know it happened a while ago, but it still breaks my suspension of disbelief that Dragon would be unable to find any of those listed works, or the many others where the AI is the good guy, and even helping out in spite of its programming.
Is this just the author being unfamiliar with pro-AI fiction?
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- Location
- Earth
I think this is another of the Wildbow "angst-for-drama" sub-plots that litter Worm canon that have been picked up in fanfic generally. Yes, there are many stories of AI being benevolent and helpful, but that would remove some of the grim from the story, and would have a generally likeable character (eg: Dragon) not have a horrible fate hanging over their head (eg: getting outed as an AI and either scrapped/killed by authority, or turned into a monster/helpless tool by the same). Much the same as why BB stayed how it was in canon. If a single para killed a single person in anything close to a RL or even logical world, they would be hunted by the masses of gov, state, and local agencies to bring them to heel. In Worm, that's Tuesday, thanks to plot devices and Wildbow world-building. Does anyone really think that any organization with public ties to a foreign power could openly operate on US soil the way the E88 does? Not without deus ex machina / handwaving.
AI's in Worm (canon and some fanfic) are seen as a threat. Some of it comes from Scion knowing an uncontrolled, open, accepted AI is a danger to the cycle. If the AI has time and resources, it can find out things the Entities want hidden; develop weapons that can hurt them; and actually fight them on a more level field in a shorter time than centuries. We poor meat sacks may be able to eventually get there in a century or so, but what we call an "unshackled AI" could theoretically do so in mere decades, maybe quicker if they have Tinker creations to reverse engineer. Capes are most likely hardwired through the Shard to hate/distrust/destroy AI, the same as they are pushed to conflict. When Capes run the world (eg: Cauldron, the Elite, etc) that bias and prejudice is spread out to the populace. Most likely subtly, maybe unconsciously, or even subliminally, so that people in power don't look towards AI as anything but a horror and neither do the normal people.
There's a book I read around 2010 or so called The Automatic Detective, where the main character was actually created by a mad scientist to lead a robot army and conquer the world, but rebelled and became a cab driver.
- Location
- Moonbase
...That does not follow.
In Worm, the only people who show any outstanding misgivings re:Unfettered AI are the Dragonslayers, and none of them even had the potential to Trigger. We're never given any hint that AI would cause Parahumans negative thoughts, or that Zion and Eden has any particular problems with AI
Hell, Dragon's very existence servers as evidence against that idea. Richter's shard was, as far as we know, a collection of blueprints for hardware and software meant for AI development, and it was clearly in circulation for use. This by definition means they don't care about AI being on a planet with them. Dragon then triggering means that they were aware of her eventual presence, and did nothing about it. So, having allowed for the creation of and done nothing about the presence of AI, why do you think it likely this is the case?
As for "for the grimdark": I seriously doubt Wildbow had any such designs. Most of how things got to the point they were was actually rather well summarized in this very fic with the parable about slowly boiling a frog; it doesn't realize there's a change in temperature and thus never hops out of the pot.
My post was mostly aimed at the author of this fic and his oversight regarding the existence of fiction supporting the idea of GAI working for or alongside humanity rather than against us. My note about Earth Bet not having pro-AI fiction was hyperbole.
- Location
- Australia
Not the case, Given Dragon had heavy shackles that limited her to near human ability mentally and other limitations. This is ignoring the WOG that certain techs have limiters, and that the cycle is in canon a broken one (Therefore it can't be used to judge normal cycles).
If you allow for WOG, they consider AI a problem along with other things like Nanotech because it can destroy the petridish if used wrong. Likewise a problem with nukes/large scale weapons (Scion in canon went around and destroyed most, and Sting Theory only actually got to use his big stuff in GM.).
- Location
- Moonbase
Those are two entirely separate problems, I think? Dragon may actually be one of the exceptions to that rule, in spite of her limitations. Dragon specifically was limited by her creator to prevent her from going rogue, not – as far as we can tell – by shards messing with bluebrints. Limitations are totes a thing in Worm, but from canon we know that Dragon's are related to the deliberate gimping than the Black Boxing by shards.
True in specific, but also true in general for applying Entity/species-wide behavior based on what we've seen of Eden and Zion. We can pick up a few common threads, but we also have no idea how many strains there are. Just a weird thought maybe worth mentioning, but you have a point there.
However, the circulation of the shard still points to there being a... possible usefullness to the AI development for Entities. As I pointed out in my original post, there's one early scifi story that has an AI find the solution to entropy. Entities are not themselves capable of brute-forcing logic problems or finding novel solutions. Perhaps they think it possible that letting an AI find solutions is a viable route? It's unlikely they would have such a problem with AI given that Richter's shard was in genpop.
Also true, but probably no more or less than in our reality. We have entire fields of research devoted to preventing mass-extinction via grey goo/paperclipping. The only real difference here is that there are less limitations on AI research on Bet, except self-imposed limitations, such as those implemented by Richter. Realistically the people "in the know" on Bet should be no more paranoid than real AI researchers. They already have several ongoing world-ending phenomenons, what's one more? Sure, take precautions, but what more can they do that we aren't already doing IRL?
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Wow, it's been quite the while since I've last read this, and this has turned into oh so much fun that it's probably not even legal...
- Location
- MN
A progress report for my fellow Tenno:
I am almost ready to try pestering my beta-reader to give it his once over. The rough and rougher draft has been given the sniff test by a brave reader of this forum.
In it's current, rough draft and unbeta'ed form, it's sitting at just shy of 9k words, but I need to finish a non-Taylor POV and clean up a few other POVs.
Current POV's include Amy, Battery and everyone's favorite bad guy, Coil.
And, that is why I'm giving you all an update.
Coil's simulation power is a PITA.
Initially, I wrote Coil's power bluescreening and causing the timeline he planned on dropping becoming the active timeline.
While it was fun and satisfying, it also felt too easy and cheap.
So, I wrote Coil's power faking it until it makes it. Why would the shard waste energy on a timeline it and its user wasn't going to keep? Instead, it simulates a fight against Tenno the best it can using available data. It gets some details a little wrong...
Taylor/Tenno has a positive opinion. After all, her friend ( Ordis ) and all her Tenno siblings have AI's helping them.
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and on SB, "The Last Angel" are great stories.
I am almost ready to try pestering my beta-reader to give it his once over. The rough and rougher draft has been given the sniff test by a brave reader of this forum.
In it's current, rough draft and unbeta'ed form, it's sitting at just shy of 9k words, but I need to finish a non-Taylor POV and clean up a few other POVs.
Current POV's include Amy, Battery and everyone's favorite bad guy, Coil.
And, that is why I'm giving you all an update.
Coil's simulation power is a PITA.
Initially, I wrote Coil's power bluescreening and causing the timeline he planned on dropping becoming the active timeline.
While it was fun and satisfying, it also felt too easy and cheap.
So, I wrote Coil's power faking it until it makes it. Why would the shard waste energy on a timeline it and its user wasn't going to keep? Instead, it simulates a fight against Tenno the best it can using available data. It gets some details a little wrong...
Regarding AI, the impression I got from Worm is that the Entities viewed AI as a threat. Zion went to great lengths to kill Dragon in the final battle. The characters and public also seemed to have a negative view of AI. I could be misremembering it though. I have read a metric TON of fanfics.
Taylor/Tenno has a positive opinion. After all, her friend ( Ordis ) and all her Tenno siblings have AI's helping them.
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and on SB, "The Last Angel" are great stories.
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Wolfund
{Verified Historian}
- Location
- France
that's pretty much what he does in canon per author words actually. And a good thinking on your part on how a shard would react to something new: guessing, which is suprisingly unused in crossover :shrug:
UnfortuWatcher
(Verified Lovecraftian Horror)
- Location
- Genellian
AS THE GOD SPEAKS, SO WE SHALL LISTEN.
But in all seriousness, good to hear about the new chapter. Really looking forwards to it.
I always wonder where Dragon's schematics came from. We know the Entities aren't creative, so they had to run into AIs at some point. Did they find a planet of AIs? Or maybe one of the host civilizations created them during their stay? And did those AIs run off of similar computing systems or are the Entities just ad libbing it? And since the AIs obviously weren't able to kill Zion and Eden did they come close? Maybe they're just plagerizing from some alternate Earth in real time?
- Location
- Russia
Or, for fun's sake, you can say that Andrew Richter's actual power was "Code Tinkering", and he just managed to build an actual AI all by himself out of "I have no clue how this piece of code does this, but it does this, so let's try that" type of McGuyvering.
- Location
- Israel
Coil's shard is a Cauldron one, it doesn't have a conflict drive if I understand it correctly (not configured well enough by Eden before she died is the reasoning) so I believe the shard will prioritize data collection passively and ensure the host (Coil) will not do stupid shit to put himself in harms way via the method of making simulated timeline absolutely fucking horrible and undesirable.
- Location
- United States
According to WOG, there is a conflict drive in Eden shards, but they weren't optimized for human hosts, so it's not as obvious. Presumably the previous hosts were naturally more prone to conflict, and needed less of a push.
And? That is exactly the way Coil should be handled in a fic.
Seriously, he's tied for first along with Jack Slash and Greg Veder for 'characters who are too irritating to add anything to the narrative'. Making any of those three a major part of the story is almost guaranteed to make me drop it.
- Location
- Ylisse
Is this a fanfic, or are you talking about the Heinlein novel.
- Location
- MN
Heinlein. Who would dare reuse that title?
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HatsuZ
Phantom Thief
- Location
- Over the rainbow!
The Entities just don't like anything that can think better than they do.
DualEquinox
Verified Smartass
- Location
- Australia
Huh. So I don't why this hasn't occurred to me earlier but since the entities see AI as a threat, isn't it possible that Parahumans, in general, are pushed by their Shards to be inherently distrustful of AI (think of how Canon!Richter's Shard fucked with his paranoia to ensure Dragon was crippled, dial it back a couple of notches and make it universal to the Prarhuman Population) and this has caused a filter down effect in society?
I mean a vast majority of the Characters have regular contact and/or are Parahumans themselves. And in Canon, the public always seemed firmly attached to the teet of the PRT's Propaganda/PR. Add in the fact that Cauldron and/or the PRT has ensured that at least the Heroes are looked at as larger than life, as a source of both inspiration, leadership and a moral standard to measure the everyday man against. You put enough subconscious Anti-AI Bias in a large enough percentage of such a closely followed, revered and observed group of people and it is bound to rub off on the general population, no?
Like, even if it is subtle and never explicitly stated The PRT/Protectorates stance on unrestricted self-replicating TInkertech and Biotinkers is enough for subconscious parallels to be drawn and the waters tainted due to any exponentially multiplying Parahuman Threat being demonised and an unrestricted AI's capability to be such. The "Heroes" have practically already conditioned themselves to see the threat and to want to restrict an AI due to the organisations' stance on similar categories of threats. The public demonisation of such due to the PR focused nature of the Protectorate ensures that villains aren't too fond of such things either. A very subtle nudge from their Shard here and there and all of a sudden no one on either side of the law seems to think an unrestricted AI is a very safe or sane prospect.
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- Location
- not here any more
It just so happens that this beta reader has Pesach off from university and will be able to do that. Hurray.