Something Wicked (Villainous Magical Boy Quest)

Which, I mean, I don't hate ViVid, but it sure as heck ain't a classical magical girl show anymore.
Yeah after Strikers it basically stops being a magical girls/boys show and starts being a magical mma sports show.

Which is fine if that is what you like but it is not what I expected. Imagine if if Futari wa Pretty Cure mainly centred on Nagisa playing Lacrosse and ignored the rest of the story. That is basically how I feel about Vivid and Vivid Strike.
 
Does anyone hope that the Captain continues to devolve into scope creep so Zaiyu can continue to do as he pleases?

I believe that this is essential for basically all our plans. Fortunately, we have no shortage of sources of mission creep, especially since our Captain also seems to be plotting behind the back of the higher-ups.


On another note, I think that it's safe to say we have a broad consensus in favor of preventing genocide, and while future events may change our trajectory, I think it's important to keep the different ways we can do so in mind. In order of preference:

1. We can work to change the mind of the leadership and persuade them that genocide is not a desirable solution.
2. If the current leadership is not receptive, we can seek to bring a new leadership to power that is receptive to not committing genocide.
3. If a coup seems impossible, we can defect to the humans and aid them in defending themselves, or in transporting them off world as a last resort.

Obviously, we should do everything in our power to make sure that option 1 works out, and if it doesn't, that option 2 works out. I would consider resorting to option 3 a failure condition in its own right, although it's less of a failure than actual genocide.

With these three avenues in mind, here are the things that I feel we should prioritize in the near-to-midterm. Many of these insights have already been proposed by other people, but I feel that by collating them, we can have a clearer sense of direction and a good starting point for further deliberations.

1. We should continue to do our job as an infiltrator. It is vital that we remain in good standing with the Captain and Estili leadership for the time being, and infiltration will also give us the resources we will need for all the other priorities.
2. We should seek to unravel the mysteries that surround our mission. It is abundantly clear that everyone on this task force is substantially in the dark about many of the details of the invasion plan, and the Captain is also not telling us everything he knows. There is also much reason to suspect that some or all of the information we do have about the invasion may be false. In order to accomplish any of our objectives, including basic self-preservation, we need better intel.
3. We should aggressively conduct research on humans, the Earth's manasphere, and any Estili technology which remains on Earth. Direct access to these research subjects, the first instance of direct access in millions of years, can yield massively valuable information for basically any purpose, including persuading the higher-ups not to commit genocide or stopping them by force.
4. We should seek to build our relationships with our teammates. Any treason that we may seek to commit would be easier with their assistance, and psychologically speaking Zaiyu is lonely and would benefit from many friends who he doesn't need to deceive on a fundamental level. The Captain would be particularly useful as an ally, since Rins is loyal to him, and as a descendant of the line of Mythos, he would be a relatively socially acceptable alternative leader if we do need to pull a coup (Lady Starspite would be most optimal, but she's one of the genocidal members of the leadership).
 
I could also add the objective of actually confronting the local magical girls, and giving them experience in fighting Estil against an opponent who doesn't actually want to kill them and will as such pull their punches.
 
Anyways, since we're talking about accomplishing the faction goals, I also feel like I should point one thing out. In my experience with magical girl anime (or rather, mostly Precure, but the first season of Nanoha and first two seasons of Sailor Moon are in there too), it's important to note that the faction goals and goals for the individual generals don't necessarily correlate. Or rather, in many cases the actual faction goal is actively in opposition to the goals of the individual "evil generals", which they often don't end up discovering until it's too late to get out.

It's also perhaps worth noting that while a lot of people want to shrug off the idea of "getting redeemed by the magical girls" like that's the default... It really isn't. How likely redemption is depends a lot on the themes of the story, the presentation of the villain in question, and how willing the magical girls are to go to bat for you. In some seasons every villain is redeemed, while in others none of the villains actually survive the finale. I've also seen at least one case where the girls actively refused to participate in a redemption arc, leading to the relevant villain's death shortly afterwards. It was one of the inspirations for Sasori, even!

...Healin' Good had a lot of fun stuff, like how the default finisher for the magical girls was literally ripping the hearts out of their enemies, making them by far the most metal magical girl team I've seen so far.
 
Are we abandoning the Estil? Like, I'm all for preventing genocide but I've mostly been hearing pro-human and pro-Earth plans even though Zaiyu is distinctly... not human. Even if there are clearly things being hidden from the crew about the mission, the fact remains that the Estil population is dying off and needs to finds a mana-abundant planet is still true. So is Zaiyu going to be ignoring all those lives in favor of the new shiny friendships and love he's gonna find on Earth? And what happens after he manages to achieve "victory"--what is victory in our case?
 
Anyways, since we're talking about accomplishing the faction goals, I also feel like I should point one thing out. In my experience with magical girl anime (or rather, mostly Precure, but the first season of Nanoha and first two seasons of Sailor Moon are in there too), it's important to note that the faction goals and goals for the individual generals don't necessarily correlate. Or rather, in many cases the actual faction goal is actively in opposition to the goals of the individual "evil generals", which they often don't end up discovering until it's too late to get out.

I think that we have been very mindful of the fact that our own victory condition is incompatible with our faction's current victory condition at the point in which it includes committing genocide against humanity. We're still focused on accomplishing our faction's goal to the extent it involves settling the Estil on Earth through whatever means necessary, but that's because Zaiyu would want to do that, not because the Estili leadership does.


It's also perhaps worth noting that while a lot of people want to shrug off the idea of "getting redeemed by the magical girls" like that's the default... It really isn't. How likely redemption is depends a lot on the themes of the story, the presentation of the villain in question, and how willing the magical girls are to go to bat for you. In some seasons every villain is redeemed, while in others none of the villains actually survive the finale. I've also seen at least one case where the girls actively refused to participate in a redemption arc, leading to the relevant villain's death shortly afterwards. It was one of the inspirations for Sasori, even!

I think the extent to which "getting redeemed by the magical girls" is desirable to begin with depends on how we define "redeemed". To the extent that we want Zaiyu to act to prevent the genocide of humanity, influence from the magical girls is likely unnecessary. Even Evil Has Standards, and Zaiyu is not all that evil anyway. Some time to humanize, for a lack of a better word, humans in his mind and let the implications of the invasion plan sink in should be enough to make him want to prevent genocide, with a minimal need for actual character development.

As for "redeemed" in the sense of defecting from the Estil, there's a reason why I called that a failure condition. Zaiyu has a lot of reasons to be loyal to his people, and I don't think an ending that entails Zaiyu betraying everything he had ever loved prior to his arrival on Earth is very satisfying, either from Zaiyu's perspective or from a narrative perspective.

Finally, "redeemed" in the sense of abandoning imperialist precepts that saving his people necessarily requires the subjugation of humanity is probably desirable in at least some senses, although I am receptive to a narrative where that never occurs. I'm not sure to what extent this requires magical girl intervention, though, as much as the genre conventions would push toward that. That sort of redemption only requires the recognition that 1) the subjugation of humanity is not necessary to secure the security and welfare of the Estil and 2) while the biological and cultural differences may be immense, in a very real sense nothing human is alien to him. As long we continue to push him in the direction of creating meaningful relationships with humans over the course of his infiltration, I think that this road remains open to us no matter what the magical girls may choose to do.

And what happens after he manages to achieve "victory"--what is victory in our case?

My opinion is that our victory condition consists of the following elements:

1. Zaiyu is alive and possesses sufficient physical and mental faculties for a decent standard of living
2. The exile of the Estil is ended, with their settlement on Earth through methods that guarantees their safety and welfare.
3. Zaiyu is able to make and preserve bonds of friendship (and potentially romance) conducive to his mental health and happiness
4. No atrocities were committed over the course of the War (if there is a war) between the Estil and humanity, or in the aftermath thereof, not limited to but especially any instances of genocide against anyone.

Note that none of these elements says anything about siding with humanity. As an Estil, Zaiyu is likely to want to side with his people except in extremis (the need to prevent genocide makes a situation in extremis by definition). I think that in terms of achieving a happy and narratively satisfying ending for Zaiyu, an Estili Empire sovereign over all Earth is an acceptable outcome as long as mass casualties are avoided.
 
I cannot enough recommend watching at least Princess Tutu, that show is art.

The battles aren't exactly what you'd expect if you're only used to Nanoha and the first Sailor Moon anime though. Tokyo Mew Mew is more in line to the whole concept of color coded teams fighting monsters. Kamikaze Kaito Jeanne has more fighty fights, and a lot of dark shit happening, but no team stuff. Mermaid Melody has color coded fighting via music and some wild shit happening later in the series... They're all going to be bigger on the shoujo than Nanoha though.

Oh, and there's actually recent TMM and MM content that has come out. One was a magical boy manga, and it was definitely made with some humor in mind. I didn't complete it but found it enjoyable.
 
...Huh. I never actually considered Princess Tutu a magical girl series, though I mean. Now that I think about it, it certainly is one. Though it's a very different part of the genre from the sentai stuff that defines Precure and Sailor Moon, yes.

...It perhaps should be noted that my main experience with magical girl series is Precure, since there's so many of them. Like i just started with "my friends really liked Happiness Charge and Hugtto, maybe I should watch those", and now I'm like 8 seasons in, watching 3 seasons, and I haven't even touched the classic seasons yet.
 
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Fortunately, humans have had millennia of making that same argument, so they should have got it down by now - Zaiyu can just ask them how they prevented hostile genocidal empires from sweeping across the globe when they could have just settled down anywhere! Right? Right?

"I see! We just need to defeat them with superior firepower and industry!"

WWII but in space and with friendship magic—wait, is this just Star Wars?
 
Rins uses they/them pronouns.
Brain fart. Fixed.

I said nothing regarding temperature, as my point was about ambient magic.
To clarify, the reason the Estil need a planet to colonize isn't because they're cold. It's because they're mana-starved.
And my "point" was a joke, because Venus's surface is almost certainly too hot for the Estil. And too acidic. And too pressurized.

Venus is a terrible place to live. (If you can't fly, the upper atmosphere is merely unpleasant.)


Venus is definitely in the right temperature range, but it's too far from Earth for the Estil to properly recover mana-wise.
Wait, really? That sinks the whole joke.
(Didn't they used to live on Earth? Earth was never 450-500 degrees Celsius, at least not after it initially cooled down.)


Just imagine: dueling friendship beams going back and forth.
Zaiyu and the girls aggressively shouting affirmations at each other with every attack.
The heroes are successfully affirming each other, the villains are arguing about whether the things they said are compliments or insults.


Also I feel like I am totally lost with these references what's Nanoha and what makes it so unique? Is this another Madoka situation?
I know it from TV Tropes as the Gundam magical girl series where "befriend" is a fandom euphemism for "blow up". The latter of which is mentioned on the previously-linked wiki page.


There are magical boys for a while before the creators [...] decide not to do anything interesting with Chrono or Yuuno (and turn Zafira permanently into a dog).
...
This is probably funnier without context.





Are we abandoning the Estil? Like, I'm all for preventing genocide but I've mostly been hearing pro-human and pro-Earth plans even though Zaiyu is distinctly... not human. Even if there are clearly things being hidden from the crew about the mission, the fact remains that the Estil population is dying off and needs to finds a mana-abundant planet is still true. So is Zaiyu going to be ignoring all those lives in favor of the new shiny friendships and love he's gonna find on Earth? And what happens after he manages to achieve "victory"--what is victory in our case?
My position is as follows:
  • Genocide is bad.
  • Convincing our god-emperor to not do genocide without substantial force on our side is probably impossible.
  • The best source of such force—and also the most likely reason Zaiyu would decide genocide is bad—is the magical girls.
  • There are less than a Singapore of Estil left. We can figure out somewhere to put them without displacing or murdering the local population. Maybe a Sahara greenhouse, maybe a moonbase, maybe a charm-warded mixed-race city.
    All we need to do is stop the fleet from murdering (or displacing) the local population.
So my plan is...throw the Zaiyu at the nascent magical girls until he gets a chance to get anti-genocide character development, then improvise from there. I know it sucks, but I don't think we can make a more precise long-term plan (for any goal) without more information. If I'm not mistaken, that's what the Estil also believe—that's why they sent an illusion-disguise scout to mingle with the locals, despite the risk of character development.
 
Damn battery dying and making me miss tons of interesting discussion!

1. We can work to change the mind of the leadership and persuade them that genocide is not a desirable solution.
2. If the current leadership is not receptive, we can seek to bring a new leadership to power that is receptive to not committing genocide.
3. If a coup seems impossible, we can defect to the humans and aid them in defending themselves, or in transporting them off world as a last resort.
Some ideas for more fidelity here,
1. - Find a use for humans that necessitates their current numbers and standard of living.
- Find evidence that subjugation would be significantly more efficient than genocide.
- Abuse the hell out of any possible sense of cultural honour.
2. - Starspite is probably our best bet here.
- Need to convince or incapacitate our teammates.
3. - Teach girls proper magical theory/do what we can to upgrade the ancient tech they're using.
- Search for magic capable humans.
- As many monsters as physically possible (base off Sasori? Mana eater = good against Estil?)
 
Anyways, one more post from me on the topic. I decided to go back a bit and check out the time where Zaiyuu clarified what his personal goals are: This would be the "Hospital (Part 4)" post, I believe.

"So what? I'm dangerous too. It's a good thing to be, honestly. If you aren't strong enough to defend yourself and your interests, you can't protect anything."

He glances up at you. For some reason, his eyes widen out of their perpetual squint. His mouth doesn't go slack, exactly, but you get the impression it wants to. "What do you want to protect?"

"Good question. The future, I guess?" That sounds about right. "This planet, if possible. And I'll protect you if you let me."

So this basically gives Zaiyuu three priorities, though they aren't necessarily in any particular order.

1: "The Future" - Let's be real here, this is entirely about the future of the Estil race, and ensuring they have the ability to continue to survive, which they need to be... At the very least, at roughly the orbit of the moon to Earth for. We're all for this one for the most part, I think. The real problem is...

2: "This planet, if possible" - So, let's be real here, the fact that Earth is basically necessary for the Estil means that he's not so much talking about the planet itself, but something akin to the current situation of Earth: The general lifestyle of those living on Earth, perse. The addition of "if possible", also implies that he doesn't actually think this goal is very likely to achieve, and might have to be abandoned if he concludes it's not possible. ...This is also the one that we're mostly fighting over, because it's the one that's hardest to pull off in the face of an actual invasion, particularly since the royalty apparently treat everyone not a royal as potential sacrifices.

3: "You, if you let me" - And here we have... Yes, it's the "people he cares about" section. This is probably the one with the most potential to cause moral conflicts in the story. He's already evaluated the current situation of Earth as something that should be protected if possible, but otherwise give up on. But the core for this section is "if you let me". If people he cares about want his help, and that help flies in conflict with the overall invasion plan of the Estil, how does he deal with that? That's likely to be the core deciding point on what side he ends up on in the end.
 
An Idea
Had an idea how things could be resolved without genocide. Ended up expanding somewhat. Framed it in the context of a hypothetical Magical Girl show.
Throughout the show, the Power of Friendship (And other such Magical Girl classics) is shown to be no guarantee of victory, and likewise your willpower by itself can only get you so far, no matter how immense it is. Simply running in and expecting to save the day because you care about people and they care about you is a recipe for disaster. It helps, but it only does so much, and against actually dangerous enemies you are almost certainly going to get your ass kicked, and even against lesser enemies you can get unlucky. You have to train, to prepare, to fight smart (In addition to the Magical Girl classics of teamwork and determination). And even then, you may not have a guarantee of winning. Sometimes you may even have less chance to win than to lose. And sometimes you may have no chance at all.
Then, final episode (Or episodes), things are looking bleak. While it has previously been established that cohabitation is doable, the leaders of the Estil do not care and wish to conquer the planet and remove humanity. And they vastly outclass the Magical Girls. And while a few Estil (Very, very few. Count them on one hand few) oppose the whole conquest and genocide thing, and want both species to coexist, they are not nearly enough to give the Magical Girls a serious chance at winning. Then suddenly Zaiyu, who up until this point had appeared to be a loyalist, pops up and gives the magical girls a massive powerup. And now the fight is a lot more even.
Later, perhaps in some bonus episodes, or simply a flashback after the climactic showdown is finished, the viewers get to see what happened with Zaiyu. It turns out, he was always sympathetic, and didn't want people to die (And suddenly the viewers might remember the many times Zaiyu could have killed one or more Magical Girls but just... didn't. Previously assumed to be because he didn't see them as a real threat and wanted to mock them, now they take on a different light). Problem was, the Estil need Earth to live, even if he defected and somehow managed to fight off his entire species, that just means the Estil all die, so someone is going to get genocided anyway, might as well go along with the invasion, not like it's going to change anything. Then it is discovered that coexistence can be done, yay! But the Estil leaders don't care and want to conquer Earth and get rid of the humans anyway. And he tries to figure out a way to get everyone living together in peace, meanwhile pretending to still be fully loyal. Problem is, every plan he comes up with, it seems that no matter what he does, one or both of the species dies off. Then he has a realization: Every plan he came up with has him saving the day. And he happens to have previously discovered a way to boost the Magical Girls powers a lot (Maybe some magical procedure, or maybe some artifact he stole to deny the Magical Girls the powerup). So his plan ends up being empowering the magical girls to beat the Estil, then having them available to slap down any attempt by one side to attack the other, essentially enforcing peace until both sides get used to living alongside each other.
So in the end, despite having been beaten down throughout the series ,the Power of Friendship and Co. are what save the day. Because even after they failed many times, the Magical Girls did not abandon them. And so, despite all of Zaiyu's mockery when they failed to bring the Magical Girls victory, they are the reason that, ultimately, when it came down to it, Zaiyu knew he could trust the Magical Girls with the lives of his entire species.
 
Rayearth is pretty fantastic, but I'd almost call it an early isekai or mecha series rather than a standard magical girl series.
It's genre fluidity. GIant mecha show up, and an isekai event is the premise of the story, but that doesn't stop it from being a magical girl show.

The Barsoom novels are isekai; that doesn't stop them from also being pulp adventure or planetary romance.

It's even in Super Robot Wars now.
Yeah, well so's Space Battleship Yamato; that doesn't make the series a mecha show rather than a space opera or whatever.
 
It's genre fluidity. GIant mecha show up, and an isekai event is the premise of the story, but that doesn't stop it from being a magical girl show.

The Barsoom novels are isekai; that doesn't stop them from also being pulp adventure or planetary romance.

Yeah, well so's Space Battleship Yamato; that doesn't make the series a mecha show rather than a space opera or whatever.

Fair point, but I still think space operas are closer to mecha stuff by default than magical girls are. Captain Harlock is in Super Robot Wars too and he kinda fits right in, but I'd be very confused if Cardcaptor Sakura showed up.
 
Fair point, but I still think space operas are closer to mecha stuff by default than magical girls are. Captain Harlock is in Super Robot Wars too and he kinda fits right in, but I'd be very confused if Cardcaptor Sakura showed up.
Makes sense.

But then, the main reason Cardcaptor Sakura can't really show up is that the show doesn't really have anything on the "mecha" scale, right? Most magical girl combat doesn't. Neither the heroines nor the villains ever go around in something twenty meters tall. But that doesn't mean no magical girl show could, y'know?

At that, if I recall correctly, they had to deliberately play up some elements of the Rayearth setting into mecha-scale antagonists when they normally fought the girls at human scale.
 
...Fittingly, a lot of Precure typically fight enemies on the kaiju scale as their "monsters of the week"... With their bare hands...

Anyways, didn't Rayearth give the girls like. Actual mechas?
 
But yeah, Rayearth is a series I've seen and I'm pretty sure I watched it to completion, but I have no recollection of the actual plot of, just... random details. I remember mokona, mechas, and... something about the red one getting a daughter that my vague memories are telling me was an evil clone of her? But everything else is vague and comes by in bursts like a fever dream. Like as I was writing, I vaguely remembered something about the green one getting an evil boyfriend? And I can't tell if that's real or just my brain having recalled shipping instincts from times long past.
 
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