Shipping It Stargate Style [Worm/Stargate]

The issue is you need to make rings large enough to go around the thing you are building, so while Ancient tech can fabricate smaller stuff easily, they can't just print an entire skyscraper or spaceship.

Of course they can use a swarm of Replicators to accomplish the same thing, probably not as rapidly as Asgard beaming, but still very quickly.
The two races had different specialties and it's interesting to see how consistent the limitations on their portrayal were. Notably, the Ancients seemed to be fifty-percent mad scientist at times.
 
Notably, the Ancients seemed to be fifty-percent mad scientist at times.
And the other times they were 100% mad scientist.

You mean, in the sane part of their cycle?
Yes, this.

And that's just the 'normal civilian average Joe' Ancients, their actual scientists started at somewhere around 150 - 160% mad scientist and were capable of reaching at least the low thousands under the right conditions.


Of course, it's worth noting that ~90% of the Ancients technology base was apparently produced by like half a dozen individuals, Merlin and Amelius key amongst them. However, as we see with Orlin, literally any random Ancient was a technological wizard with no sense of OSHA regs or basic sanity.

So it is more likely that the few Ancients who produced most of the technology were just the most creative ones that decided to use their mad scientistry to solve new and interesting problems, while the majority of the population spent their time building a new teleporter every time they wanted to visit someone different, because they hard-coded the target for each teleporter and felt it was easier to just build a new teleporter out of whatever was lying around the place than change the target coordinates on an old one.
 
Except the Odyssey, which uses Asgard NIGs on top of them

Really wondering when the Odyssey got the NIGs. I don't remember Thor mentioning that when the Asgard did their version of "Pimp My Ride" .

I know the Asgard Core contained it's own power source, because Thor mentioned something about it not pulling from the ZPM.
 
Really wondering when the Odyssey got the NIGs. I don't remember Thor mentioning that when the Asgard did their version of "Pimp My Ride" .

I know the Asgard Core contained it's own power source, because Thor mentioned something about it not pulling from the ZPM.
Oh, that's a good point, the Odyssey got the Asgard Power Core instead of NIGs, which is implied to pull energy from subspace instead of using fuel.
 
Which means that the Asgard succeeded where the Ancients failed. That's something I didn't notice before.
Yup, the Ancients had ZPMs which pulled energy from subspace, but ZPMs could only pull from a miniature artificial subspace dimension, not 'true' subspace itself. Subspace is rather a lot bigger than the ZPM's artificial subspace dimensions.

The Asgard Power Core is, quite likely, a superior power source than ZPMs; ZPMs can probably provide greater burst power, but an Asgard Power Core will keep generating energy effectively forever.

The two together, each covering the weaknesses of the other, is a very potent combination, albeit with the downside that the Asgard Power Core emits a subspace signal that can be detected by certain extremely advanced sensors while it is active, but the ZPM's storage capacity helps cover that problem too.


There are a few other areas where the Asgard are either implied or outright demonstrated to have superior technology than the Ancients; the Ancients have a lot of individual examples of stuff which is The Best, but Asgard tech is largely superior overall.


Shame that the Odyssey was never outfitted with Drone Weapons, those things remained one of the best known weapons systems in the setting right to the very end, albeit massive power hogs like most Ancient technology.
 
Last edited:
There are a few other areas where the Asgard are either implied or outright demonstrated to have superior technology than the Ancients; the Ancients have a lot of individual examples of stuff which is The Best, but Asgard tech is largely superior overall.
I think this says something about Ancient versus Asgard society. I at least think that the Ancients were heavily fragmented. Lots of places where they went off and did their own thing, and only occasionally engaged with each other. So you see a lot of places where people are trying oddball stuff, with relatively little overlap. For one thing, we see a lot of Ancient tech over the course of the show that is distinctly buggy. Now, some of that is it just being very, very old. However, Stargate technology as a whole seems to lean hard towards stuff where you can bury it in the sands for a few centuries and be fine. So I think that there is a substantial amount of bugginess that the Ancients either worked around, or was a result of trying to push the envelope on a fairly short development cycle.
It also comes from what we see. With the ancients, there are a lot of research bases, isolated hideaways, and the like, but really only the one city ship.

On the other hand, there are the Asgard, which, I think are a much more unified society. Asgard stuff is, for the most part, a single coherent approach, with very few serious issues. And we actually see Asgard cities, although they have the issue of extreme automation coming from low population. However, that has to be a relatively recent development. When looking at the Beliskner for example, it is clearly a ship that is designed to have a crew moving through it. Otherwise, why are the hallways so big? Why have so much empty cargo space if not for food and spare parts and other supplies?
 
I think this says something about Ancient versus Asgard society. I at least think that the Ancients were heavily fragmented. Lots of places where they went off and did their own thing, and only occasionally engaged with each other. So you see a lot of places where people are trying oddball stuff, with relatively little overlap. For one thing, we see a lot of Ancient tech over the course of the show that is distinctly buggy. Now, some of that is it just being very, very old. However, Stargate technology as a whole seems to lean hard towards stuff where you can bury it in the sands for a few centuries and be fine. So I think that there is a substantial amount of bugginess that the Ancients either worked around, or was a result of trying to push the envelope on a fairly short development cycle.
It also comes from what we see. With the ancients, there are a lot of research bases, isolated hideaways, and the like, but really only the one city ship.

On the other hand, there are the Asgard, which, I think are a much more unified society. Asgard stuff is, for the most part, a single coherent approach, with very few serious issues. And we actually see Asgard cities, although they have the issue of extreme automation coming from low population. However, that has to be a relatively recent development. When looking at the Beliskner for example, it is clearly a ship that is designed to have a crew moving through it. Otherwise, why are the hallways so big? Why have so much empty cargo space if not for food and spare parts and other supplies?
Ancient tech tends not to be very buggy at all actually, in fact it's usually extremely reliable; it almost always does exactly what it was supposed to do.

The problem is that the Ancients apparently designed all their technology under the assumption that the only people who would ever use it were also Ancients, and thus knew what they were doing. Ancient tech is energy-hungry, but exceptionally reliable and completely lacking in any kind of sensible safety features.

Like the Ancient databases, which happily shove vast amounts of advanced knowledge into the brains of anyone who looks in them, without any regard for whether the brain in question can actually handle having that much information shoved into it.

Even the Stargate, one of the few pieces of Ancient technology that actually has failsafes and the like, has a number of glaring OSHA flaws; like the unstable vortex (the 'woosh') that disintegrates everything in front of the gate when it opens.


There's a really good short story about Ancient engineering, which is so absolutely perfect that I like to pretend it is canon, because it really does fit so well.
 
Last edited:
The problem is that the Ancients apparently designed all their technology under the assumption that the only people who would ever use it were also Ancients, and thus knew what they were doing. Ancient tech is energy-hungry, but exceptionally reliable and completely lacking in any kind of sensible safety features.
This. They'd won the Game of Life, and were about to win the Game of Death (via Ascension). Any given one of them is smarter than entire spacefaring civilizations. The Asgard were the only ones exempt from being utterly irrelevant to them beyond academic/moral interests.

Even before their Ascension, the Ancients were already little-g gods just through Clarketech alone. It would make sense to them that the chances of their technology being misused were as close to zero as statistically possible. They, like the Asgard, were probably "incapable of such primitive thinking", and didn't consider the possibility of a team of Florida Men from their old homeworld mucking about with god-tier hypertech.
 
Last edited:
You should probably consider that all of the Ancient tech we see on screen is well... ancient.
Saying that the Asgard have better things when their competition died out millennia ago is a bit of a stretch. We'd have to look at them and compare them as they lived side by side and existed as part of their respective empires, and not based on derelict artifacts.
 
This. They'd won the Game of Life, and were about to win the Game of Death (via Ascension). Any given one of them is smarter and wiser than entire spacefaring civilizations. The Asgard were the only ones exempt from being utterly irrelevant to them beyond academic/moral interests.

Even before their Ascension, the Ancients were already little-g gods just through Clarketech alone. It would make sense to them that the chances of their technology being misused were as close to zero as statistically possible. They, like the Asgard, were probably "incapable of such primitive thinking", and didn't consider the possibility of a team of Florida Men from their old homeworld mucking about with god-tier hypertech.
Considering some of the shit they just left lying around for anyone to use to do all kinds of horrible things, like the Dakara Superweapon, very much so.

Like, the Goa'uld wouldn't exist as an interstellar polity without the Ancients leaving their tech lying around; almost the entire Goa'uld technology base is actually poorly reverse-engineered kitbashed Ancient technology.
 
Well, Ancients seemed to understand their own technology and know how to use it; so - why would they add 'safety' to it? That's like telling your average adult human that knifes are sharp - you don't have to, it's known.
Okay, sometimes they get a little fo by Murphy, like with the Wraith - but come on, that was totally not predictable.
And if, after ascending, some pre-sapient species found their tech and hurt themselves - that's like, Darwinian principle in action, nothing to fret about.
 
Well, Ancients seemed to understand their own technology and know how to use it; so - why would they add 'safety' to it? That's like telling your average adult human that knifes are sharp - you don't have to, it's known.
Okay, sometimes they get a little fo by Murphy, like with the Wraith - but come on, that was totally not predictable.
And if, after ascending, some pre-sapient species found their tech and hurt themselves - that's like, Darwinian principle in action, nothing to fret about.
Yeah that's basically how the Ancients saw it, as far as I can tell.
 
Ackshully
The Milky Way was actually seeded by them millions of years ago, as were several other galaxies, like the Pegasus galaxy where Atlantis was and many more, but they originally came from yet another galaxy, IIRC the same one the Ori were from. The Ori were a splinter of the Ancient species originally, as I remember it, and the Ancients we know ran away and left them there thanks to a religious schism - as in, the Ori wanted to be worshipped, the others didn't, or something along those lines.
 
Ackshully
The Milky Way was actually seeded by them millions of years ago, as were several other galaxies, like the Pegasus galaxy where Atlantis was and many more, but they originally came from yet another galaxy, IIRC the same one the Ori were from. The Ori were a splinter of the Ancient species originally, as I remember it, and the Ancients we know ran away and left them there thanks to a religious schism - as in, the Ori wanted to be worshipped, the others didn't, or something along those lines.
Your interpretation of the timeline doesn't work, as them coming from the Ori galaxy running from them implies they were already Ascended. They weren't, at all, because then none of their tech would exist here because they weren't around to build it. Aside from the Gate Network, whose construction was likely heavily automated, they didn't seed MW. They built up organically.

As far as my admittedly rusty Stargate lore-ness remembers:
They started on earth a long, long fucking time ago.
Colonized and/or Gate-Networked basically everywhere in the Milky Way.
Built and launched both the Destiny and its forward-fleet to seed the Destiny Gate Network.
A splinter of the Ancients for Pegasus (don't remember the precise reason, knowing Ancients probably just because they could). IIRC Atlantis/city-ships in general already existed, and they used that as a colony ship, but not completely sure about that.

After this, my memory gets fuzzy as to the order of things, but they start experimenting with Ascension and make hostile first-contact with the Wraith. At this point, they've colonized several galaxies already, including the Ori galaxy.

They slowly lose ground to the Wraith through sheer numbers and Zerg-Rushing, things really aren't going so well in Pegasus.

Eventually, the Alterrans get swamped by the Wraith, the Ascension research is finished, and the Ancients all go "poof". [insert number of years] later, the Ori figure out the whole "Worshipped!Ascended > Not-Worshipped!Ascended", and everything goes to shit.

The Ancients run home to the Milky Way and go silent-running for hundred-or-so thousand years, cut to start of SG-1.

I'd love if our resident Lore-Buff (aka OP) could verify this, since I'm certain I got a few things wrong, but I'm 99.998% certain they didn't start out in the Ori Galaxy...
 
From my memory:

The original split from the Ori was "focus on science" vs "focus on religion", with the "focus on science" group leaving. Unknown to them, the "focus on religion" group would figure out a path to Ascension through religion and then eventually push all those that didn't ascend into worshipping them for more power.

Wandering to Pegasus happened because of the plague, and they took Atlantis from Earth to Pegasus as part of that. Other city-ships might have made the trip as well from other planets, or might've been built in Pegasus after they got there.

The "return to the Milky Way" only worked because the plague had essentially been dealt with by then (might've been a "reseed the entire galaxy with life again with the Dakara superweapon to wipe the plague out" thing?), but if they had a proper cure then they didn't take the one person left in stasis out and cure her. Instead they just went and mingled with the rest of humanity that was there now.
 
Guys did you forget that there's an entire wiki page regarding the history of the Ancients?

Hundreds of millions of years ago, the Alterans lived in another galaxy on the evolutionary path to Ascension. Over time, two factions arose within the Alteran peoples; one faction was dedicated to scientific endeavors and the physical aspects of Ascension, the other faction was dedicated to religious study and the spiritual aspects of Ascension. The religious faction came to call themselves 'Ori' while the scientific faction continued to refer to themselves as 'Alteran'.

Eventually the friction between the factions escalated to open conflict and the Ori went full religious crusade on the Alterans, trying to exterminate them entirely. Because the Ori were the more numerous faction at this point, the Alterans faced a war of attrition that they knew they could not win, so instead they used their scientific superiority to build a spaceship and run away. (This happened somewhere between 50 million and 100 million years ago.)

Approximately 50 million years ago, the fleeing Alterans arrived at the Milky Way. There they colonized the planets of Dakara and Terra, established the Stargate network, invented ZPMs and spread a variety of outposts throughout the galaxy for whatever random-ass projects they felt like investigating. Many of these projects were never completed for a variety of reasons, the most prominent example of which being the Destiny and Seed Ships; a project to automatically propagate the Stargate network throughout the universe for later exploitation, which never went anywhere because the Alterans abandoned their material stuff when they figured out Ascension. This was also the time period when the Alterans formed an alliance with the Asgard, Nox and Furlings.

Approximately 5 to 10 million years ago, a virulent plague struck the Milky Way (believed to have been sent by the pre-ascended Ori in an attempt to wipe out the Alterans). The plague basically gutted the entire Milky Way of life, destabilizing planetary biospheres as it attempted to genocide the Alterans. Unable to cure the plague, even with time travel (which is why that time travel device exists), the Alterans built themselves a big ole city-ship called Atlantis and did what they always do when confronted with the unwanted consequences of their actions; they ran away, this time to the Pegasus galaxy. (Not all of them fled though; some stayed behind to fight the plague, the ones that stayed behind eventually built and fired the Dakara Superweapon, repairing all the ecosystems the plague had destroyed by turning them into healthy Canadian pine-forest.)

In Pegasus they went back to their usual SCIENCE! experiments, and at approximately 11,000 BC one of those experiments went hilariously wrong: Fearing that Ascension might be impossible, a group of Alterans began a series of experiments with the goal of achieving biological immortality. For reasons known only to themselves, they decided that the way to run these experiments was to kidnap 100 humans of each gender from around the galaxy and attempt to hybridize them with an unusual arthropod native to Pegasus known as the Iratus bug, which had a unique method of feeding involving consuming its preys 'life force' directly to extend its own life.

99 of the males and 9 of the females survived the experiments and became what would later come to be known as the Wraith, unexpectedly they also developed telepathic abilities, which they used to trick the guards of the facility and escape into the wild with the failsafe weapon that was intended to kill them if they went rogue, and a stolen ZPM.

The Alterans chased the fledgling Wraith around Pegasus for awhile, but eventually lost them thanks to the Wraith using their (at the time unknown) telepathic abilities to steal various ships and equipment. They also found a really big mollusc on one of the worlds they hid on, which would later become the basis of their bioengineered Hive Ships.

Overconfident and arrogant, the Alterans kept throwing ships at the Wraith and the Wraith kept stealing them, eventually managing to collect a nice hoard of ZPMs which they used to power a cloning facility, stamping out new Wraith drones by the thousands. This sudden surge in Wraith numbers completely threw the Alterans for a loop, and the Alterans found themselves on the losing end of another war of attrition. This time, rather than just run away immediately, the Alterans attempted to fight back by building their own mass-produced army, combining their nanite technologies with their construction drones (aka Replicators) to create the Asurans, and in a moment of sheer fucking genius they decided to hard-code the most powerfully virulent aggression code they could come up with into their nanite von-neumann machines so as to ensure they would fight the Wraith with everything they had.

The Asurans were not happy about the aggression code and begged the Alterans to remove it, but the Alterans were desperate and stupid and the code was part of the fail-safes preventing the Asurans from rebelling against the Alterans, however the code rendered the Asurans psychotically unstable even at the best of times, and so the Alterans concluded that the Asurans were not the solution that they had been hoping for, deleted all references to the project from their databases and glassed Asuras itself to destroy the nanites. (Unsurprisingly, some of the nanites survived and replicated back to full force.)

With the Wraith winning and their counter-strike a failure, the Alterans attempted diplomacy with the Wraith, which failed miserably. Faced with the unwanted consequences of their own actions once again, the Alterans did the thing and ran away, returning to Earth in hope that the plague had burned itself out by now. This was approximately 10,000 BC, when primitive humanity on Earth, having been left to their own devices for 5 - 10 million years, were just starting to figure out that if they took the seeds of an edible plant, planted it somewhere and looked after it as it grew, they could then harvest the edible parts for a reliable long-term food source!

Having apparently grown something resembling a conscience after the whole thing with the Wraith, the Alterans decided that conquering humanity and raising up their empire once again in the name of SCIENCE! was not an acceptable course of action. As they had figured out how to make Ascension work by this point, even to the point of 'forcefully' Ascending through Ascension Machines, the Alterans once again split into two factions; one faction Ascended and began twiddling their thumbs, or whatever the fuck it is Ascended do when refusing to interact with the material world. The other faction intermingled with primitive humanity and primitive humanity did to the Alterans as it had done to its other cousins that had evolved over the last few million years; they had lots and lots of dirty primate sex with them and popped out legions of hybrid babies, to 'set a path to future civilization' or something. (Personally I think that last part is bullshit, the Alterans were just sick and tired of their SCIENCE! projects blowing up in their faces and decided to take a vacation and bang some primitives.)

Unfortunately, neither of these two groups bothered to investigate the rest of the Milky Way after returning, and thus completely failed to notice that a bunch of parasitic snakes had discovered some Alteran tech lying around in ~22,000 BC and were busily building an intergalactic empire of slaves. This is especially ironic, as the Goa'uld discovered Earth around the same time that the Alterans returned, but by the time the Goa'uld (specifically, Ra) showed up on Earth in force the dirty primate sex faction had all grown old and died or Ascended, and the Ascended faction had decided on their 'no interference' policy. So when Ra conquered Egypt some time around ~10,500 BC, rather than do anything to clean up their mess, the Alterans decided to just not do that and, in fact, not do anything really.


And that's about it; Merlin later descended for awhile to build the Sangraal because the Ori had also figured out how to Ascend and their method was better than the Alteran method in the sense that it made the Ori more powerful, meaning that the Alterans could not fight the Ori on equal ground and thus would need a cheat code, but that's another story.
 
Last edited:
Guys did you forget that there's an entire wiki page regarding the history of the Ancients?

(SNIP)
Much of that Wiki page concerning this time period is unclear, and the source that could be construed as direct proof (i.e. main-character dialogue) of the Ancients being extra-galactic is vague and unclear at best, and flat-out wrong at worst. With how imprecise it is, it could genuinely reference them returning from Pegasus after the plague.

"Once upon a time, there was a race of people that went on a great journey through space, across the universe. They were called the Alterans. After much time they found a great belt of stars. The Alterans named their new home Avalon and built many 'Astria Porta'."
Daniel Jackson, reading from an Ancient book found in the Avalon vault

This isn't a literal translation, it's massively simplified, and it's written as vaguely as possible because reasons. The Ancients may like flowery language, but this is a historical document being stored in a dedicated data-storage vault. There's no way this is what the actual text said, and Jackson's wildly mistranslated things before, to the point of being plot points in a few episodes.

Oh, also:
"Alteran History Summary\Paraphrased"
Not exact, nor clearly cited. Adding fact to speculation only works if it's Word of God.

A Wiki page with exactly one external citation, which is some random guy's blogging site, is very much not WoG.

--------------------------------------------

Either way, this discussion is encroaching on Thread Derail territory, so let's get back on track:

How hard are Armsmaster and Dragon going to Tinkergasm when they see all the hypertech Taylor is now made of?
 
Last edited:
Much of that Wiki page concerning this time period is unclear, and the source that could be construed as direct proof (i.e. main-character dialogue) of the Ancients being extra-galactic is vague and unclear at best, and flat-out wrong at worst.
While I cannot provide an exact quote off the top of my head for the multiple times that characters explicitly reference the Ori coming from another galaxy, I do remember that Adria gives a little speech to Vala and Daniel while shes flying the Ori warship in Counterstrike, one of the earlier episodes from Season 10. In said speech she mentions that many more Ori warships are coming through the Supergate, so many more that she estimates the [Milky Way] galaxy will be conquered within 1 year.

If the Ori aren't from another galaxy, then why haven't they already conquered the galaxy with all those warships; why did they need the Supergate? Ori warships are demonstrably capable of intragalactic FTL, seeing as Adria is flying the warship from another planet to Dakara at the time.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top