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Shipping It Stargate Style [Worm/Stargate]

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  • Staff Post
    • Gatemaster said:
    I admit, I've mostly been following the discussion while silently agreeing or disagreeing with various points of both sides.
    But the bolded statement below actually made me chime in.

    ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS?! SMOKING CRACK? HIGH ON SOMETHING ELSE IF NOT?

    At this point in the timeline, she is the opposite of everything in the bolded statement. Her mother dying, father absent, her best friend turning on her, not to mention the bullying campaign and everything around it...

    Odyssey and SMSGBS will help, but she is a long way from arrogant at this point. Ans that means that her personality up to this point in-story (and beyond) practically needs a rewrite.
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    stop
    This post is a violation of Rule Three: Be Civil. Gatemaster has been infracted for 25 points and been banned from the thread for three days.
     
  • Staff Post
    • SlickRCBD said:
    The Wraith didn't bother with shields for the same reason modern warships don't bother with the kind of armor plating that WWII battleships and cruisers had.
    The same reason that until recently soldiers stopped using armor (though it has now started making a comeback).
    The shields didn't work on the ancient's drones, so it was a waste of power.
    Although I'm surprised the ancients didn't have other weapons. IIRC one of the main problems the Daedalus and Prometheus class had was that they simply couldn't do enough damage to the huge hive ships, which could self-repair. It was kind of like in WWII an aircraft strafing a tanker or cargo ship with the machine guns, or a PT boat trying to do the same when their torpedoes were expended (although they did have some success using a 37mm gun against barges).
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    The Ancients did have other weapons; Alteran spaceships are armed with pulse weapons for point defense and the like, with the Destiny having an older version. The Destiny also apparently predates the invention of drone weapons, as it has a much larger 4 barreled pulse weapon instead of drones.

    Drone weapons are just the primary weapon system used by the Ancients because they are the ultimate offense; only the most advanced shields (Ancient and Asgard) are capable of stopping drone weapons, and even then they still drain a huge amount of power from the shields, IIRC even Ori warships are forced to retreat in the face of drone weapons.


    Drones work on basically everything, from fighters to capital ships, so it is not surprising that the Ancients used them for everything and relegated other weapons to secondary status.
     
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    SlickRCBD said:
    Although I'm surprised the ancients didn't have other weapons.
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    Neruz said:
    Drones work on basically everything, from fighters to capital ships, so it is not surprising that the Ancients used them for everything and relegated other weapons to secondary status.
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    They were also a society of scientists, so they never had a militaristic viewpoint. They also were incredibly arrogant, even while being defeated by the wraith. These 2 things combine into a mindset of "drones already work best, and we even have the pulse cannons as backup, we don't need amything else".
    So they never put more weapons in their ships, even if some labs likely had more types of weapons developed.
     
    lymbo said:
    They were also a society of scientists, so they never had a militaristic viewpoint. They also were incredibly arrogant, even while being defeated by the wraith. These 2 things combine into a mindset of "drones already work best, and we even have the pulse cannons as backup, we don't need amything else".
    So they never put more weapons in their ships, even if some labs likely had more types of weapons developed.
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    Yeah, basically if they ever encountered a problem that needed weapons other than drones and pulse cannons, they just built new weapons, used them to solve the problem and then left them lying around once they were finished, because now that the problem was dealt with they didn't need the new weapons anymore.

    And then when they encountered problems that they couldn't solve like that, they just ran away instead.
     
    Also they had the holy grail that is swarm projectile warfare on the very tip of their hands... and instead of spending less and making more drones which could hammer down shields with sheer walls of pulse cannons, they made them far more expensive, unrecoverable phase weapons.

    Smh, Alterans. Shame on you.
     
    TCGM said:
    Also they had the holy grail that is swarm projectile warfare on the very tip of their hands... and instead of spending less and making more drones which could hammer down shields with sheer walls of pulse cannons, they made them far more expensive, unrecoverable phase weapons.

    Smh, Alterans. Shame on you.
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    C: Basically, they had the techbase for some absolutely terrifying carriers and went for missiles instead.
     
    Well from what I remember Drones could be used then recharged when used. and as they phased and anything they phased through ended up superheated. they could be used more than once. I do know that if their charge ran out they detonated.

    So in my mind Drone weapons were pretty effing effective. Used properly nothing is going to live longer than a few shots and it was a reusable weapon with only a few losses.
    Would have to read the wiki and watch a few videos to make sure I'm remembering rightly. I will give you that it's damn expensive to be made. but when you have a pocket dimension energy Battery I don't think you have a very big problem of cost.

    Oh and if you had to choose between a carrier boat with fighters that while can be remotely controlled and refitted if they sure survive. but limited in number. Or hundreds of thousands of little oil barrel-sized missiles that will quickly overwhelm any point defense on the enemy side and be can quickly (relatively speak compared to making a new fighter) produced. I'd go for quantity over quality in that case.

    Edit: correctly spelled battery
     
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    cailco said:
    Well from what I remember Drones could be used then recharged when used. and as they phased and anything they phased through ended up superheated. they could be used more than once. I do know that if their charge ran out they detonated.

    So in my mind Drone weapons were pretty effing effective. Used properly nothing is going to live longer than a few shots and it was a reusable weapon with only a few losses.
    Would have to read the wiki and watch a few videos to make sure I'm remembering rightly. I will give you that it's damn expensive to be made. but when you have a pocket dimension energy batter I don't think you have a very big problem of cost.

    Oh and if you had to choose between a carrier boat with fighters that while can be remotely controlled and refitted if they sure survive. but limited in number. Or hundreds of thousands of little oil barrel-sized missiles that will quickly overwhelm any point defense on the enemy side and be can quickly (relatively speak compared to making a new fighter) produced. I'd go for quantity over quality in that case.
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    Actually I've run the numbers before and using purely Tau'ri and Tollan tech, you can make Interceptor Drones with a Tollan Ion Pulse Cannon in the nose that are a tenth the cost of an Alteran Drone. And they'd have Goa'uld shields and a naquadah reactor on board so they can't run out of energy. And they're reuseable. And if for some reason you still want to use them as missiles, they've got massive nukes for generators.

    Now imagine a Tau'ri Aurora equivalent fielding a hundred thousand of these things (irrc the Aurora had a 10k complement of Alteran Drones), all coordinated via an onboard AI or VI.

    :V
     
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    TCGM said:
    Actually I've run the numbers before and using purely Tau'ri and Tollan tech, you can make Interceptor Drones with a Tollan Ion Pulse Cannon in the nose that are a tenth the cost of an Alteran Drone. And they'd have Goa'uld shields and a naquadah reactor on board so they can't run out of energy. And they're reuseable. And if for some reason you still want to use them as missiles, they've got massive nukes for generators.

    Now imagine a Tau'ri Aurora equivaent fielding a hundred thousand of these things (irrc the Aurora had a 10k compliment of Alteran Drones), all coordinated via an onboard AI or VI.
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    Yes, but the Atlanteans didn't think they would be facing an enemy who relied on swarm tactics. Thus they armed themselves to fight themselves. An interceptor drone would be extremely weak to simply being phase droned with each phase drone killing many many many interceptor drones. The only defense against drones is more drones and fuckoff powerful shields. The Atlanteans built to that philosophy.

    So the Atlanteans failed when they fought an enemy who simply tanked drones until they gave up, and even then it took the Atlantean civilization basically shutting down due to plague for their industry to be weak enough to not be able to simply supply Pegasus with enough Drones to win.
     
    Look whoever invented the fancy burning force-field tech that the drones use was really proud of it okay?

    Drones were also preferred because they are precision weapons; they only destroy what they hit and cause very little collateral damage, which the Ancients appreciated.
     
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    Neruz said:
    Look whoever invented the fancy burning force-field tech that the drones use was really proud of it okay?

    Drones were also preferred because they are precision weapons; they only destroy what they hit and cause very little collateral damage, which the Ancients appreciated.
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    Alterans appreciating a lack of collateral damage is an intensely hilarious concept for some reason...

    And yeah, the odds of their weapons guy going for the shinier phase drones over an interceptor design because it's fancier are higher than I'd like to admit.

    Fouredged Sword said:
    Yes, but the Atlanteans didn't think they would be facing an enemy who relied on swarm tactics. Thus they armed themselves to fight themselves. An interceptor drone would be extremely weak to simply being phase droned with each phase drone killing many many many interceptor drones. The only defense against drones is more drones and fuckoff powerful shields. The Atlanteans built to that philosophy.

    So the Atlanteans failed when they fought an enemy who simply tanked drones until they gave up, and even then it took the Atlantean civilization basically shutting down due to plague for their industry to be weak enough to not be able to simply supply Pegasus with enough Drones to win.
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    Counterpoint; the sheer swarm potential of these Interceptors would decimate Phase Drones. Sure they can phase through the pulse cannon bolts, but you can have wolfpacks of the Interceptors coordinating to hunt down each Phase Drone, and Phases have limited energy while the Interceptors can basically fire endlessly until well after the battle is over. On top of that, Phase Drones actually have to make contact to do damage, whereas Interceptors can engage in that epic pasttime of gamers everywhere; they can kite the bastards.
     
    TCGM said:
    Alterans appreciating a lack of collateral damage is an intensely hilarious concept for some reason...
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    Too much collateral damage is why they mothballed the Asurans instead of using them to destroy the Wraith; the Lanteans were confident that the Asurans could destroy the Wraith, but they feared that the Asurans would destroy all the transplanted 'primitive' human and native alien populations in the process.

    TCGM said:
    And yeah, the odds of their weapons guy going for the shinier phase drones over an interceptor design because it's fancier are higher than I'd like to admit.
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    We are talking about the species that decided to terraform 90% of the habitable planets in the galaxy into Canadian pine forest, after all. Making major decisions on a momentary whim is pretty standard practice for the Ancients.
     
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    Neruz said:
    Look whoever invented the fancy burning force-field tech that the drones use was really proud of it okay?

    Drones were also preferred because they are precision weapons; they only destroy what they hit and cause very little collateral damage, which the Ancients appreciated.
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    until one drone happens to go through the ships head, on taco night
     
    TCGM said:
    Alterans appreciating a lack of collateral damage is an intensely hilarious concept for some reason...

    And yeah, the odds of their weapons guy going for the shinier phase drones over an interceptor design because it's fancier are higher than I'd like to admit.



    Counterpoint; the sheer swarm potential of these Interceptors would decimate Phase Drones. Sure they can phase through the pulse cannon bolts, but you can have wolfpacks of the Interceptors coordinating to hunt down each Phase Drone, and Phases have limited energy while the Interceptors can basically fire endlessly until well after the battle is over. On top of that, Phase Drones actually have to make contact to do damage, whereas Interceptors can engage in that epic pasttime of gamers everywhere; they can kite the bastards.
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    The problem is you need bigger and bigger and bigger ships to carry all those interceptors. The size of ship required to use them offensively would render them economically inefficient.

    And primitiveness does not always decrease cost as manufacture methods advance. The Atlanteans likely printed drones pretty cheaply.

    And the drones are faster than anything else on the show. You can't kite that. They can't be shot down when active. They remain active long enough for an engagement to be resolved. Endurance only matters if you are tough enough to actually reach the end of the enemy endurance.
     
    Fouredged Sword said:
    The problem is you need bigger and bigger and bigger ships to carry all those interceptors. The size of ship required to use them offensively would render them economically inefficient.

    And primitiveness does not always decrease cost as manufacture methods advance. The Atlanteans likely printed drones pretty cheaply.

    And the drones are faster than anything else on the show. You can't kite that. They can't be shot down when active. They remain active long enough for an engagement to be resolved. Endurance only matters if you are tough enough to actually reach the end of the enemy endurance.
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    Bigger and bigger ships you say. Destiny and the city ships say that they obviously have the tech to make them.

    In regards to primitiveness it is more of less exotic materials would be needed in regards to the scenario. Sure overall it might be a higher quantity of materials but they would be more common or easier to get.

    The main issue that I have with drones is that they required a lantean or someone with their genes to mentally target the enemy. That is a major weakness when it comes to dealing with swarms. Though that might just be my schetchy memory of the show.
     
    Alsor Daechir said:
    Bigger and bigger ships you say. Destiny and the city ships say that they obviously have the tech to make them.

    In regards to primitiveness it is more of less exotic materials would be needed in regards to the scenario. Sure overall it might be a higher quantity of materials but they would be more common or easier to get.

    The main issue that I have with drones is that they required a lantean or someone with their genes to mentally target the enemy. That is a major weakness when it comes to dealing with swarms. Though that might just be my schetchy memory of the show.
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    The gene is a safety, not a requirement. The Atlanteans put it in to stop someone from using their tech against them.

    Humans have a hard time using a chair device. The Atlanteans had no problem using their almost ready to ascend brains to control everything. Hell, the Atlantean version of a library almost killed people due to how primitive human brains are in comparison.
     
    Fouredged Sword said:
    Humans have a hard time using a chair device. The Atlanteans had no problem using their almost ready to ascend brains to control everything. Hell, the Atlantean version of a library almost killed people due to how primitive human brains are in comparison.
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    How wrinkly were Atlantean brains? For people that don't know the surface of the brain is where the higher function is. The wrinkler the brain surface is the better the intelligence and such.
    Take a look at a human brain and compare it to an ape and then compare the apes to a koala's. Then take the human brain and compare it to a Dolphin's
     
    cailco said:
    How wrinkly were Atlantean brains? For people that don't know the surface of the brain is where the higher function is. The wrinkler the brain surface is the better the intelligence and such.
    Take a look at a human brain and compare it to an ape and then compare the apes to a koala's. Then take the human brain and compare it to a Dolphin's
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    They are "Pushing the edge of what is physically possible" wrinkly. Telekinesis, telepathy, precognition... They had all of these showing up in people are preascended people. They didn't do all their thinking in their brain meat. Stargate has a physics system with a end state. You can reach the end of technology where everything past that is merely application of known physics. There is nothing more to learn, nothing more to discover short of ascension. Atlanteans pushed up against that barrier. Asgardians pushed up against that barrier. Furlings pushed up against that barrier. The Atlanteans ascended. The Asgardians fell into an immortality trap. The Furlings decided "fuck it, don't bother me".

    And Taylor currently has a core with all the science and technology of the Asgardians in her stomach somewhere, packaged as a gift to humanity so they can take the place of the Asgardians who accidentlyed their race.
     
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    cailco said:
    Did we ever find out what happened to the furlings?
    I remember one episode that had Koala/Ewok bear things that were said to be them, but I had my doubts.
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    They be chilling. Nothing happened to them. They decided they didn't want to be involved with the universe and after saving the Tolans who got stranded on earth basically disappeared back into their invisible flying cities on an invisible planet and stayed there.

    They beat death and so could not ascend. They didn't fall into the Asgardian trap through, so didn't die off ether.
     
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