Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]
- Thread starter Baughn
- Start date
- Crossover
- Location
- United States
[X] Help Nadeshiko
It was 7-6 for "Help Nadeshiko".
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Oh, you're correct. SCO voted for "rewind", which remains invalid.
They'd probably switch vote if poked, but I'm going to take that excuse and avoid any further ties.
- Location
- Laniakea
SCO voted for both, including the valid one.
Depends on whether your vote is considered separate or not - yours included a stunt that only came AFTER 2 or 3 other people voted for helping Nadeshiko, without the stunt.
I want to make it clear - I actually don't mind which vote wins, as I didn't expect "close the rift" to get that level of support to begin with. While I would be interested in seeing what happens in that event, I'm also perfectly fine being awake for JP's to try and arrest us.
- Location
- Laniakea
Good to know Saaya is not going to die in the next few days no matter what.
Honestly, I wrote that stunt for fun just to see how much dice it might be possible to squeeze out of that route and only offered to take the punt with anyone who went for it because I genuinely did not expect more than 1 or 2 people to be interested. No matter how much I racked my brain, I couldn't come up with one that would give more than 12-13 dice and I said as much when I made the valid version that I didn't think the odds would be good at Difficulty 5, I would've only really been comfortable with us having 14+ dice on that kind of roll.
Then a whole bunch a silent gamblers suddenly popped out of the lurking.
If that had won, I would've been sweating bullets for the roll.
Of course, if you accept that "Help Nadeshiko" got 7 votes, that means you're also accepting the stunt @Quine wrote for a joint action with Nadeshiko as part of it, meaning there's no dice roll needed for it to succeed.
.....Right?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Only one person voted for the stunt…
- Location
- Laniakea
Yes, but if you don't take that as a vote for "Help Nadeshiko" then it only gets 6 votes.
Unless you're deciding just to take the "Help" part of his vote and chopping off the stunt portion?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Kinda? Votes get collapsed when appropriate so voters who make slight differences in wording don't get ignored, on the assumption they'd rather make said change than switch to a completely different outcome.
If I didn't do that then the "close the rift" vote would only have four votes, however.
- Location
- Laniakea
But is it appropriate to chop off the stunt in this case?
Those who voted "United Front - Close the Rift" did so on the basis that it was a voteplan, even if it didn't have "Plan" in front of it. Because there's no real other variant of any option named "United Front - Close the Rift".
Is there any reason to assume people WOULDN'T have voted for a stunted version of "Help Nadeshiko" that guaranteed the result?
Why collapse the votes into the non-stunted version instead of the stunted version?
I'm pretty surprised the big risk plan didn't pull ahead. I don't think it was as inspired as Plan Dream Again, but the risk analysis seems comparable. Quest voter risk appetites tend to skew high, and between the big success of Plan Dream Again and the good rolls on the healing, I was expecting people to be feeling lucky.
I was waffling on it by the end, and might have actually gone for it if we'd been able to refine it. Hopefully we can get proper plan voting going - being able to edit plans to refine them and have the changes picked up automatically for other voters is one of the big benefits of plan voting. We had multiple instances of not being able to edit a plan or having to roll an edit back for this vote.
Maybe if stunt vote splitting continues to be an issue, we can count up the votes ignoring stunts, and then take the highest-voted stunt for whatever won?
I was waffling on it by the end, and might have actually gone for it if we'd been able to refine it. Hopefully we can get proper plan voting going - being able to edit plans to refine them and have the changes picked up automatically for other voters is one of the big benefits of plan voting. We had multiple instances of not being able to edit a plan or having to roll an edit back for this vote.
I hope we can do something about this vote-splitting issue. A valid stunt should be strictly superior to the same vote without a stunt, but by the time I put that stunt in, the big risk plan was in the running. I think people were trying not to split the vote against the big risk plan. (That, or people haven't quite internalized the stunt rules.)
Maybe if stunt vote splitting continues to be an issue, we can count up the votes ignoring stunts, and then take the highest-voted stunt for whatever won?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Chiefly because it's one to six. I'm assuming people sometimes prefer the riskier gambit specifically for being riskier, since I do so myself, but… hey, we can check.
@Varano @NHO @Vanguard_D @Embler @Quickshot0 @Nero200
Of the outcomes on offer, which do you prefer?
@Varano @NHO @Vanguard_D @Embler @Quickshot0 @Nero200
Of the outcomes on offer, which do you prefer?
We can do that, if it's what y'all prefer, but I'll need more people to say so.
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Any option that is not United front
- Location
- Laniakea
At this point, I am prepared to again be surprised, but I would quite expect those who voted with the low-risk option to be keen on jumping on the "no risk" version of that option.
Clearly though, my expectations on the risk appetite profiles of all the questers here have been very off. So I suppose it's possible there may be a mindset of "some risk please, just not too much" going around there too.
@Varano @NHO @Vanguard_D @Embler @Quickshot0 @Nero200
Just to explicitly lay it out -
[] Help Nadeshiko
^ This option needs a dice roll to succeed. Difficulty of the fight is apparently 2.
[] Help Nadeshiko
-[] Drawing on Ran's athletic specialization, you conjure a pair of jump ropes, then cap their ends with giant jawbreakers courtesy of Su, for a pair of makeshift bolas. While Nadeshiko has the strixes distracted, you lob the bolas and wrap them around the enemies' wings to bring them down, then pin them to the ground with honey so Nadeshiko can finish them off.
^ Baughn clarified in a previous post that, due to Nadeshiko being a "unnaturally good" assistant and the stunt having Amu performing a joint action with her, this option will NOT need any dice roll, it will automatically succeed.
Given the choice, which one would you prefer?
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I actually would with out the risk of vote splitting used the stunt version, or made a slightly different variation of it as it would have seemed to make the fight a bit more sure. But there it as such would split the vote I just went with the most basic line instead.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Right.
On vote splitting: You can vote for multiple options, I'll handle it like approval voting. Like SCO did, and if more people do so, I'm more likely to notice.
All you need to do is separate your votes with a blank line.
In principle we could use ranked voting, but that's probably more trouble than it's worth unless we get a lot more players.
On vote splitting: You can vote for multiple options, I'll handle it like approval voting. Like SCO did, and if more people do so, I'm more likely to notice.
All you need to do is separate your votes with a blank line.
In principle we could use ranked voting, but that's probably more trouble than it's worth unless we get a lot more players.
- Location
- Laniakea
So how would collapsing of the votes work, if you had people vote-split between stunted and non-stunted versions, such that the non-stunted version technically won, but a stunted version still got a substantial proportion of votes?
Using this one as an example, if we had 7 people vote "Help Nadeshiko" and 5 of them voted for both stunted and non-stunted versions, while 2 voted only for the non-stunted version.
Would there just not be any collapse, with the non-stunted version winning outright? Or would the votes be collapsed into the stunted version, because the majority of people who voted for the main option (5/7) voted for the stunted variant?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
That's what we're trying to figure out, I suppose. If a substantial fraction of people actually do that, then I can probably assume the remainder do _not_ approve of the stunt, which I can't at present-
But I'd much prefer people to explicitly say so.
The thing about stunts is that they'll always be latecomers. The default options exist immediately, while people might only come up with a stunt hours or days after an update goes up.
So if a vote is heavily contested between Thing A and Thing B, and then someone comes up with Thing A + Stunt, no one's going to switch away from Thing A to Thing A + Stunt. That would risk Thing B winning. At best, they'll approval-vote both Thing A and Thing A + Stunt. The stunt can't catch up unless either Thing B falls far enough behind that people are comfortable voting for just Thing A + Stunt, or the people who voted early for just Thing A come back and add the stunt. Plus, some people won't realize they can approval vote, and that'll push the stunt even further behind.
The biggest stunts so far have been votes for fundamentally new courses of action, with stunts integrated. Plan Dream Again never had to compete with Plan Dream Again Minus Stunt. But when a stunt augments a default option instead of being integrated into a new path, the stunt is at a disadvantage, even with approval voting.
So if a vote is heavily contested between Thing A and Thing B, and then someone comes up with Thing A + Stunt, no one's going to switch away from Thing A to Thing A + Stunt. That would risk Thing B winning. At best, they'll approval-vote both Thing A and Thing A + Stunt. The stunt can't catch up unless either Thing B falls far enough behind that people are comfortable voting for just Thing A + Stunt, or the people who voted early for just Thing A come back and add the stunt. Plus, some people won't realize they can approval vote, and that'll push the stunt even further behind.
The biggest stunts so far have been votes for fundamentally new courses of action, with stunts integrated. Plan Dream Again never had to compete with Plan Dream Again Minus Stunt. But when a stunt augments a default option instead of being integrated into a new path, the stunt is at a disadvantage, even with approval voting.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Point. So, let's go with this:
- Approval voting is generally in effect. There's no actual way to turn that off.
- If I see two non-default votes that are identical but for minor details, and neither is winning, I'll collapse them instant-runoff style. The one with more votes wins (assuming they win in combination), but I may include elements from the other(s) assuming they don't conflict, at my discretion.
- For default votes vs. default votes with added stunts, votes w/o stunts automatically count as votes for the same option w/stunt, if the latter exists.
- All of this assumes the people in question don't explicitly say otherwise in the votes. Negative votes aren't a thing, but you can clarify in your vote that it shouldn't be counted against an enhanced version of itself. 😅
Which overall means "Help Nadeshiko, stunted" wins.
Tadase, think of something!!
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