Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

[Baughn]

Dreamwalking aside, she seems more of an Misaki/MisakiSI expy than the actual Misaki expy from this interlude.

Click to shrink...

The Misaki expy is a case of Baughn going "Misaki seemed like a sweet kid, but she grew up in hell. What if I gave her a normal family, and all the hugs she could possibly want?"

It's a fix-fic element in other words, though she does serve a narrative purpose. You may well be right that Ami ended up closer to canonical Misaki as a result.

 

[veekie]

The healthy way around it would be to remove her from a victim rich environment until she learns to turn it off it like Amu is capable of.
Ie: Keep her the hell away from all the people that can't defend themselves / block her reading ability.

Click to shrink...

That sounds practically certain to result in a hostile Shadow taking up her psychic power because she's not allowed to meet any of her friends and she has to reject it to fit in.

 

[Nero200]

That sounds practically certain to result in a hostile Shadow taking up her psychic power because she's not allowed to meet any of her friends and she has to reject it to fit in.

Click to shrink...

To be blunt, better that than everyone who interacts with her getting mind controlled / read.

Also, she'd still be able to meet / interact with psionic friends, just not the ones she's mind controlling.
(I wouldn't class people she has an insurmountable advantage over, violating their minds every time she talks to them, as friends to start with, but she seems to think they are, so they probably don't have a choice in the matter.)

Now imagine a world where everyone did have that knowledge and could become Hikawa.

Does closing the power gap still seem like such a good idea?

Click to shrink...

Going by the fact that JPs seem to have some level of mental defences as standard, yes. That implies blocking is teachable technique.
It would give 'normal people' a fighting chance against the ones invading and violating their minds.

 

[PistachioCookies]

Going by the fact that JPs seem to have some level of mental defences as standard, yes. That implies blocking is teachable technique.
It would give 'normal people' a fighting chance against the ones invading and violating their minds.

Click to shrink...

We don't actually know if it is a teachable technique, as opposed to a piece of magitech like the Nicaea program. But if it was, I want to point out that a technique that can be used to create fog over a person's mind can be used to.... you know.... create fog over someone's mind.

I guess it's your call whether you find dumping fog into brains more or less invasive than reading one.

Assuming it is even a deliberate artifice set up by JP's and not a warning sign that their minds have actually been parasitically invaded by something that presents as fog to a mind reader.

 

[Ryumancer]

Place your bets: Is this a Shadow type situation, a Persona type situation, a Chara-to-be type situation, or none of the above?
If the latter, I wonder what that says about the Ami we know?

Click to shrink...

Honestly, it reminds me most of BRS Otherselves, which are formed by shoving all the suffering and whatnot that you can't properly cope with into a mental world of it's own.

 

[Baughn]

All right, the discussion seems to have died down. I think it's probably time to put a pin in the votes.

Honestly, it reminds me most of BRS Otherselves, which are formed by shoving all the suffering and whatnot that you can't properly cope with into a mental world of it's own.

Click to shrink...

BRS itself fits reasonably well into this setting.

The characters won't show up in the main story, but I won't exclude Mato making an appearance in some sidestory if I find myself with too much time on my hands.

 

[Skelm]

This is a long standing dispute with Nero that probably isn't going to change, but I have to disagree that Ami has harmed her classmates here. Whether using psionics on someone is bad for them depends on what you do with them, not just on the fact that you used psionic powers. There are lots of bad things someone with Ami's powers could do, but she doesn't do those things, so it doesn't matter.

(Or maybe she has but the negative consequences have yet to become apparent to her - she is only seven, after all, I doubt she has a comprehensive understanding of non-obvious ways this can go wrong - but normally you only hold people responsible for harms they understand and can predict)

((I would worry a lot more about Ami if she wasn't surrounded by people who can see and act on the same level as her, but she does, so it's probably fine))

 

[Baughn]

Some comments on the leading vote...

[X] Plan - Meikyuu Butterfly: Convince the 'shadow castle' to shift the room with the physical Yui right in front of the door. Joint action between Utau and Amu.
-[X] Main Actor - Utau: The same skill, once used for the nefarious deed of blackening the hearts of children, perhaps now may serve a more noble purpose. Empowered by the Dumpty Key, hand-in-hand with Amu, reach out and connect to the 'mind' within the fog. Like a butterfly wandering a labyrinth, you feel your way towards the darkened depths of Yui's suffering and beckon to it, singing out your earnest desire to step across and share in her pain: "Open your shiny eyes in the silent night..."
--[X] Use Lightsmithing to seek out the mind behind the fog and guide your beckoning.
-[X] Sub Actor - Amu: Utau has not met Yui or felt the 'mind' of the 'shadow castle'. You have. Share your experiences with Utau to describe how you did it and what it felt like, in order to help her do the same. When Utau beckons, add your own emotional voice to the choir of Utau's melody, sending out the whispers of the respite you promise to bring: "I continue writing out the pages of my story, even while I'm blinded by the fog of destiny, I'll be breaking through the clouded skies toward tomorrow's distant light, high up in flight..."
--[X] Provide free pre-concert refreshments for everyone with Su's Happy Fun Cooking Time.
-[X] Send Ami and Midori back to rendezvous with Hikaru and update Tsumugu. Tell them to try and make sure Hikaru doesn't panic and do anything rash.

Click to shrink...

- Utau remains the protagonist. She doesn't mind, but Amu believes she looks much worse through Utau's eyes than she feels internally. Utau doesn't seem to mind, but Amu wants to look cool as well, and would like you to vote for her. You don't need to listen; everybody else would prefer she takes a longer break.

- This will one hundred percent have an effect. I'll roll some dice for what the effect is, but that isn't a success/fail thing and I may choose to ignore them.

- Midori and Ami-kun get to bond and catch up! Oh dear...

<Midori> Um...
<Ami> I think I can make a basement. Can I live in the basement, mom?

 

[quantum lurker]

She (Utau) doesn't mind, but Amu believes she (Amu) looks much worse through Utau's eyes than she (Amu) feels internally.

Click to shrink...

Correct?

Amu wants to look cool as well

Click to shrink...

Uh, Amu, you would look more cool when not lying on the floor due to being WP-tapped, right? (Is an addition to use WP if necessary required for the current winning vote?)

---

(It would be a interesting thing if Utau and Ami had a long conversation about the negatives of Psionics: Amu has had a Saaya experience and also intellectual understanding from her mom; but Ami has had nothing towards that end so far.

Speaking of which, it'd be far easier for it to emotionally get through if someone who is aware of Psionics, dislikes the potential; and yet trusts Amu/Ami enough to open up and allow them to look with the Empathy/Mind Control means they usually use - but such scenarios and the background context thereof don't grow on trees, do they?
As far as indirect harm of Psionics are concerned, being able to predict such is gonna be an unreasonable ask beyond the most obvious IMO, especially at that age - probably would need Uni or post-graduate level knowledge of Psychology in order to even start, and this sort of thing ends with writing a new Psionics & Psychology textbook :/)

 

[Baughn]

Correct?

Click to shrink...

Correct.

(It would be a interesting thing if Utau and Ami had a long conversation about the negatives of Psionics: Amu has had a Saaya experience and also intellectual understanding from her mom; but Ami has had nothing towards that end so far.

Click to shrink...

Ami has had nothing obvious, or at least nothing that's obvious to a seven-year-old. The way everyone in her kindergarten class adored her was sus, but not truly outside what's technically possible -- and if Amu hasn't quite caught on, then Ami certainly hasn't. Her parents have caught on that she's a casual mind-reader, and are attempting to at least limit it to that, but it would be hard to overcome the massive amounts of positive feedback she's getting from- uh, everyone in her grade approving of it, basically.

Anyone who wouldn't have approved of it, in a spherical vacuum, has already been talked over to the side of the psionic kids.

...it's going to blow up eventually, but that's as likely as not to be when somebody writes a hit-piece on them. There's no guarantee that the news will be truthful at all. And sooner or later the newspapers will catch on who killed some of those demons, and that Ami effectively carries a deadly weapon at all times.

I don't dislike Ami. I don't think I'd dislike her if I lived there, either. But boy is she a headache. Her powers aren't PR-friendly in the slightest, except to other kids with the same powers.

Approach that in the wrong way, and they'll all be seen as a real life version of The Omen.

Is an addition to use WP if necessary required for the current winning vote?

Click to shrink...

No, if you want to avoid disasters. Yes, if you want to push it through no matter what.

 

[PistachioCookies]

(Is an addition to use WP if necessary required for the current winning vote?)

Click to shrink...

No, if you want to avoid disasters. Yes, if you want to push it through no matter what.

Click to shrink...

The problem I'm guessing is likely that the premise/assumption of there being a "real Yui" (as Amu/Utau are thinking of) somewhere in the dungeon to call out to is false.

This would be something they cannot possibly have any inkling of knowing until they reach the end of the Abandoned Laboratory, or try to connect to the mind of the place (whether to tear it down or make it move). As it stands, this vote being made in hopes of the effect providing enough information for them to discover the misconception behind it.

Trying to "force" it would be counterproductive, if the up-front effect isn't something actually possible to achieve.

If the up-front effect were at all possible, I'm pretty sure we'd have had a standard dice roll for it instead of "guaranteed something else". I suspect the reason it wasn't called a "guaranted auto-fail" (even though it techically is if all you look at is the intended effect) is that the information it may provide may be critical enough that it outweights any time and energy spent on it.

...it's going to blow up eventually, but that's as likely as not to be when somebody writes a hit-piece on them.

Click to shrink...

Depending on how things go, I dare say there's equally likelihood it will blow up when Ami gets dragged into one too many disaster zones and ends up stuck somewhere for a prolonged period where there are so many unhappy people, she can't escape the knives of other peoples' pain being buried in her head.

She'll be forced to learn to tune out or turn it off when that happens.

At least if it's just the news writing a hit piece on psionics, she'll still have every other psychic they tear apart like Amu, Hikaru and Makoto to commiserate with and won't be alone in her frustration.

 

[quantum lurker]

Spoiler: Ami & Psionics

...it's going to blow up eventually, but that's as likely as not to be when somebody writes a hit-piece on them. There's no guarantee that the news will be truthful at all. And sooner or later the newspapers will catch on who killed some of those demons, and that Ami effectively carries a deadly weapon at all times.

Click to shrink...

oh, that is a thing as well huh, welp

massive amounts of positive feedback

Click to shrink...

well, I guess it's time to speed up waking Saaya up so she can yell more at Amu and Ami

I was thinking of how while Ami has made the world around her a bright place through her efforts (in truth, because she mostly avoided the pitfalls of reflexive self-editing and respecting the boundaries [that she recognises] even if she doesn't understand them; and did not choose the route of closing off in response to what she sees),
she can't do that to everyone she interacts with; and considering how the end of the world is literally inevitable that's gonna be a problem eventually due to whiplash - yes, she knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that her parents love her (which matters), and has friends to help her navigate such matters, but does she have enough Integrity (in the mental resilience sense, not the Shards sense) in and of herself to work through this event safely?

Furthermore, I'm also concerned about her potentially being changed (for the worse, for a given value of worse) when she starts interacting with others beyond the cinnamon-roll grade that she has made as a result of being herself - does she have enough resolve to stick to her own values while being presented with reasonable-sounding alternatives, especially if their situations are not within her capabilities to help?

Spoiler: Psionics, Tsukasa & The Wider World

(And there are the second/third order negatives of Psionics that probably only Utau knows for sure:
Passive, consistent and unfiltered Empathy projection may make those around her unable to fully recognise/navigate their own emotions by themselves [too much extra input, or mild 'jumping on "problems" before they truly become apparent/have had time to try and navigate it by themselves'],
or view interactions with non-Psionics less positively due to it being less 'real' [since it's impossible to people to be this 'real' normally, not even the most outgoing or transparent people without Psionics],
or simply having a much harder time recognising non-intense emotions and/or interact with other people in a black-box manner that non-Psionics usually do,
or...)

The biggest problem here really is that Amu/Utau are the only ones to really have the perspective to get through to Ami like this, but Amu doesn't fully understand yet (or understand just how integrated Psionics are to Ami's worldview, or even know it's important to try and find out), and I cannot see a story path that makes narrative sense for Utau to have said conversation with Ami at all.

Approach that in the wrong way, and they'll all be seen as a real life version of The Omen.

Click to shrink...

Basically, these are teething first-generation Psionics problems, not helped* by the formative years being kept a secret by Tsukasa** or something?
And as for how well this turns out, the ball is in our court now (and also in the court of the media - hopefully they actually think more before they post what they post) :/


* Not that Tsukasa exposing these things earlier would have helped much: As you mentioned, Amu's parents being so accepting isn't exactly the average - you don't need to be a bad parent to have difficulties with these things; and the really troubled ones might then encourage their children to use Psionics in negative directions!
Besides, without Tsukasa spending effort to at least try and gather Psionic users in one place, it's much harder to establish a set of norms for ability usage, or to slowly teach them the results of misusing [for a given value of the word] Psionics via pushback from fellow Psionics (exhibit A: Saaya); and given that there are non Psionic users in this school this also tries to avoid the perception of there being an inherent divide between Psionics and non-Psionics.

Furthermore, Tsukasa does not have access to mind shields because he's not part of the government - he's only had so much he could do, and I think overall even with the flaws, edge cases and potential blowing up he's done a very good job with what he had.

** As far as I can tell, Psionics is an inevitable result of Overgrowth, Overgrowth is an inevitable result of the Collective Unconscious being very big, or whatever actually happened back then in this setting; and the Chara system is a restraining bolt on Psionics to allow it to be used in more positive directions (or not be used at all without Charas, period)

Shifting the discussion a little, what sort of Reason do you think Amu should aim for if we manage to get there, taking into account Amu's views and the nature of the wider setting (which makes removing Psionics or beyond-regular-physics abilities doubly-OOC)?

Taking Nero's concerns into account, I was thinking something along the lines of "to make a world where we all can, and are willing to take on some of each other's burdens (Kagutsuchi included), but also where non-consensual effects cannot be forced through supernaturally"?

Alternatively we could go for "to make a world that is hidden, isolated and uninvolved with Law and Chaos", but will the big hitters of Law and Chaos even accept such a world existing?

(Perhaps the problem here is that Psionics needs to be given to Humanity 2.0 ala The Secrets Crusade for it to [be guaranteed to] go well; but it's not a good idea not to have such either when Amala, Law and Order exist out there?)

 

[PistachioCookies]

Expanding the discussion a little, what sort of Reason do you think Amu should aim for if we manage to get there, taking into account Amu's views and the nature of the wider setting (which makes removing Psionics or beyond-regular-physics abilities doubly-OOC)?

Click to shrink...

IMHO, screw Kagutsuchi and his Reasons. The ideal outcome would be to NOT have the world end up getting reset every 6000 years by a giant polygonal head.

That's not going to be achieved by praying to him with any kind of Reason.

 

[quantum lurker]

The ideal outcome would be to NOT have the world end up getting reset every 6000 years by a giant polygonal head.

Click to shrink...

Mechanically speaking, my first Reason would probably resolve to "Overgrowth is now available to everyone, but some of everyone's is co-opted to squash the bigger uses of Psionics or Magic; or serve to help Kagutsuchi out so population growth won't cause the same problems as last time" which would hopefully resolve the need for such a reset?

"Actually, Kagutsuchi, why not make a world where we can actually help you out so you don't have to keep doing this; and by the helping of you and each other prove ourselves worthy in the meantime?"

She'll be forced to learn to tune out or turn it off when that happens.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, Ami really needs to get a better handle on her Empathic Projection too: It can accidentally serve as a higher powered version of Amu's passive aura with the attendant consequences thereof, but it's obviously unreasonable to have a 7 year old try and figure that said consequences exist out anytime soon without assistance, say maybe from Utau.

(About the only way I can think of in-story to get there anytime soon is to have Amu go down and talk to JP's psychologist about Psionics [hopefully having Utau's permission to share some of her story with said psychologist] and mention how she's not sure about how Ami's present worldview after factoring in Psionics, do you have any others?)

Her powers aren't PR-friendly in the slightest, except to other kids with the same powers.

Click to shrink...

Ami ended up closer to canonical Misaki as a result.

Click to shrink...

See, it's perfectly clear now, right?

 

[Skelm]

Taking Nero's concerns into account, I was thinking something along the lines of "to make a world where we all can, and are willing to take on some of each other's burdens (Kagutsuchi included), but also where non-consensual effects cannot be forced through supernaturally"?

Alternatively we could go for "to make a world that is hidden, isolated and uninvolved with Law and Chaos", but will the big hitters of Law and Chaos even accept such a world existing?

Click to shrink...

AIUI anything other than the Neutral Reason ("put everything back the way it was, please") kills almost everyone currently alive, so it would be pretty hard to justify following anything else.

 

[quantum lurker]

Neutral Reason

Click to shrink...

Doesn't the Neutral Reason also have the problem of the Sun still being gone (unless we manage to prevent Hikawa doing his thing, and having Kagutsuchi trigger the Septentriones normally), and a variable percentage of Earth being gone?

Only thing I can think of to get a Sun back is to create a Fusion Reactor using Lore 5 and then use Teleportation 5/Illusion or Dreamwalking ? to spatial warp it into the sky or something. (Infinite energy is at least somewhat cheap using Teleportation 5 - just make a link between the bottom of a pipe and the top, and you now have a budget water mill)

Or perhaps use Biokinesis 5/Medicine or Lore ? to create a food source that doesn't rely on the sun (some fungi equivalent), and then Teleportation 5 to solve the not-enough-power problem I guess.

(Rejecting Reasons are all well and good, but we do need to have at least an idea of how to resolve the problems left behind afterwards, right?)

 

[Skelm]

(Rejecting Reasons are all well and good, but we do need to have at least an idea of how to resolve the problems left behind afterwards, right?)

Click to shrink...

To my understanding, the Neutral ending completely resets the world back to before the Conception. The ending cutscene clearly shows a "normal" world with clouds, sky, and natural illumination, and I think we're meant to assume the world outside of Tokyo has also been restored.

 

[PistachioCookies]

To my understanding, the Neutral ending completely resets the world back to before the Conception. The ending cutscene clearly shows a "normal" world with clouds, sky, and natural illumination, and I think we're meant to assume the world outside of Tokyo has also been restored.

Click to shrink...

Well with the exception of the Demi-Fiend apparently still being a Demi-Fiend.

And apparently that ending is also not Kagutsuchi's preferred ending, as it defies his boss the Great Will. Kagutsuchi is just an enforcer, Lucifer seems to imply that even if Kagutsuchi were somehow made to keep the world 'continue' every time Conception happens (i.e. repeating the Neutral ending every 6000 years) his boss will eventually personally come down on the person who keeps making it happen.

 

[quantum lurker]

Neutral ending completely resets the world back to before the Conception

Click to shrink...

Ah, I was looking at the wrong Neutral ending earlier: The one where the Great Vortex isn't dispelled and no new world is forged

 

[Quine]

Personally, I'm hoping to evacuate the universe before it collapses.

Well with the exception of the Demi-Fiend apparently still being a Demi-Fiend.

Click to shrink...

He looks like he's human again too. He's got his shirt back and no tattoos.

Incidentally, "Neutral Reason" is a misnomer - the Freedom ending is one of the ones where you reject all the Reasons.

Her parents have caught on that she's a casual mind-reader, and are attempting to at least limit it to that, but it would be hard to overcome the massive amounts of positive feedback she's getting from- uh, everyone in her grade approving of it, basically.

Click to shrink...

From what I'm seeing here (which is a somewhat limited view of the situation), these kids have grown up with psionics as a part of life, and they've had pretty much nothing but positive experiences with it. To them, a mind reader isn't a terror to hate and fear. To them, a mind reader is a shining pillar of the community, always ready to lift people's spirits and help everyone connect to each other. They'd probably get very worried for Ami if she were to suddenly stop.

I wonder what it's going to be like for Amu when she finally meets Ami's friends. Ami has probably talked up Amu a great deal to her friends, as a person and a psion. I'm expecting a degree of culture clash, personally.

 

[Skelm]

Incidentally, "Neutral Reason" is a misnomer - the Freedom ending is one of the ones where you reject all the Reasons.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I only realized that just now while looking up the ending cutscene

 

[quantum lurker]

Personally, I'm hoping to evacuate the universe before it collapses.

Click to shrink...

But to where though, and with what throughput?
(Amala is inherently hostile to humans iirc, unless we can evacuate people to the CU en-masse?)

 

[PistachioCookies]

- Utau remains the protagonist. She doesn't mind, but Amu believes she looks much worse through Utau's eyes than she feels internally. Utau doesn't seem to mind, but Amu wants to look cool as well, and would like you to vote for her. You don't need to listen; everybody else would prefer she takes a longer break.

Click to shrink...

Needs more Integrity.

Pity's sake, 2 dots and Amu is still so insecure, she needs to derive her self-worth from how cool she thinks she looks in front of Utau.

The funny thing is, if Amu had Dia available, it could conceivably be her in the lead vocals position instead of being a backup singer, since Dia did plenty of trauma-pulling herself with Black Diamond back when she was X-Dia. But without Dia at her disposal, only Utau has that experience.

Also, Amu already had her chance at 'cool' with the fox. And it cost her several points of WP.

 

[quantum lurker]

Amu is still so insecure

Click to shrink...

Considering I get the feeling they share the deepest bond due to backstory elements aside from family not named Ami, how they just escaped from a consistent mental debuff effect called Fog (and was tanking more than her share to protect Midori), I don't think its exactly unreasonable here even with 2 dots of Integrity?
(The way Integrity is mentioned here gives me the impression that it doesn't prevent you from feeling down, or relying on people more than may be appropriate; but it makes sure you will at least be doing so wholeheartedly?)

Also, I think the Fox only cost 2WP (opposed + Key), the last WP went to Chara Change if I didn't get things wrong here

and had kept her from sinking into darker places after she'd crunched down on demon minds and hurt them on purpose.

Click to shrink...

I wonder how Ami would react to genuine malice in the future? Probably not in a good way, but I hope having a Chara in the future would insulate her a bit more from such shocks

 

[PistachioCookies]

I wonder how Ami would react to genuine malice in the future? Probably not in a good way, but I hope having a Chara in the future would insulate her a bit more from such shocks

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure the demons WERE genuine malice. From what we got from the Saaya sidestory, all indications point to them literally trying to 'feast on her fears':

Each shard-of-self- macca -is eaten by a mocking laughter that learns its summoner and why she blindly calls for death.

Click to shrink...

Ami's reaction to these kinds of beings was to mind crush them and then immediately feel bad about doing so.

The remorse over doing so was probably blunted not just by the fact her schoolmates like Hikaru were also doing the same thing and consoling her about it afterwards and that she did so to protect her friends, but likely the fact that these things weren't human either.

If we're talking about Ami coming face to face with humans carrying a personal grudge against her - like a lynch mob reading about killer psionic children in the news - I would imagine she would have something of a nervous breakdown.

If we had control/voting power over what to do in that scenario (assuming there was no big sister nearby to bail her our), I'd vote for her to run. And then go against her apparently natural instincts towards "honesty" by using Illusion to change her face and make her look like one of the lynch mob. And then run some more.

And teach her a valuable lesson in the process of why it is good to be able to hide the truth from other people at times.