So she's explained the fog, then.
It's kind of awkward trying to elaborate on an action that's already so weird and abstract.
Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]
- Thread starter Baughn
- Start date
- Crossover
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
More likely she'll do it on-screen, but you can pretend she already has, yeah.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Certainly. Kind of. Hmm. If you're familiar with it, the way I'm thinking of this is in terms of configuration space.
Imagine a dreamworld where, instead of Euclidean space, you have places—waypoints—that locally follow Euclidean rules, but the connections between them function as a configuration space of the possible concepts one can think about.
Perfectly simple and reasonable, I dream.
<Ami> I want to show Amu a lot of things.
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So I'm hearing we build an AI to interpret what the (conceptual) 'dimensions' mean, and then get from point A to point B safely by moving accordingly?
(More seriously, effective Stunts would be finding 'dimensions' that made more sense and/or are easier to go through?)
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Yes, though now I'm at risk of saying too much. Ami pulled you out a bit randomly, but the room you're in can still be seen as a variation of the place you came here from.
Added a bit more text to the previous post.
Too bad we don't know what the topology of the space is, or what any of the dimensions represent. As with the stunting problem, we just have so little to work with.Certainly. Kind of. Hmm. If you're familiar with it, the way I'm thinking of this is in terms of configuration space.
<Ami> I want to show Amu a lot of things.
I'm kind of surprised you didn't have an Utau picture for the altered transformation, by the way. I thought maybe you got bored of playing with image generators, but it doesn't look like that's the case.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Not that, no. It's more... it would take me hours to make one I like, right now, and those hours would feel wasted when Stable Diffusion 3 is right around the corner. I want to at least see what it can do first.
...plus I'd rather spend my quest time writing, and I think you'd prefer that as well.
Your general lack of knowledge is why I still consider this chapter part of the introduction. You'll know when that is done, because Hikawa will become a problem.
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With the edited information (yeah, I can see why that's almost too much to share):
1) Shadow-fight is the conventional semi-Euclidean method. (Which ties in to us needing the ribbons to nail things down into Euclidean shapes earlier; and the confidence/Chara change being needed to enforce a coherent concept over this situation)
2a) We are trying to find a set of conceptual bridges that bring us to the center instead bypassing the corridors if we want to do this with more finesse (Stunt) in lieu of Dreamwalking brute force (standard option). Problem: What could the center be like, in this scenario?
2b) Answer (?): What does the center of a normal shadow castle/labyrinth look like, in Naoto's experience?
...better find medics while they are still available :/ :/ :/
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Okay, a little more information to work with. Hmm... maybe we should find somewhere nicer to be, and drag the shadow there.
How would Ami describe dreamspace travel?
I'm wondering if the rivers actually contain water, or if rivers are particularly metaphysically significant in this setting?
Funny to mention: I was thinking of doing the opposite - extrapolate Yui's Trauma from what we have, and move in those conceptual directions (could end with us going straight back to the Shadow, so more workshopping required)
Also, I'm pretty sure that would just end with an angry or disintegrated Shadow, considering how the entire place is described to have a weak mind by Amu?
[] Tear the place open… deliberately
-[] Midori: "Ok, so, from what I'm hearing about the situation and our capabilities; we need to find alternative links between us and the center to get here without going through that again right?"
-[] "While this would normally be a worse invasion of privacy than already done, here is what we know about the girl we want to rescue in our investigations. Assuming this doesn't direct us back to that Shadow, we should navigate based on her traumas and also what she would view as safe near the end - that'd probably be easier than walking up the front door or just randomly hoping for a suitable path to come up?"
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- Location
- Laniakea
Might just be his own people from Easter. Depends on how much he knows about anything to do with the Scavengers or the Dreamlands. Could also just be Nikaidou, with him demanding to know where Utau went.
Let me just clarify this - as soon as they exit Ami's "Safe Room" (to borrow the term from Persona 5), they are going to be back in the corridor outside the locked door.
The area beyond the locked door is not the center of the "shadow castle". The room they saw before upon entering was just the starting point. The whole of the warped Scavengers' House that Amu's party was previously trekking through was not the main part of Yui's "shadow castle" itself, but just the "front lawn" leading up to the main complex, which is beyond the locked door and would require clearing several floors after the room immediately behind it before they reach the heart.
Is this about right?
We know the place we were at was connected to a hole somehow, and I think this would be a lot easier if hole existeds that led directly to the center, ergo since that is not the case I doubt the place we just left (and the room next to it) is the center?
- Location
- Laniakea
I have a different "shortcut" approach in mind that would take advantage of Amu's better stats, rather than Dreamwalking, and would use help from Utau instead of Ami. For what I have in mind, Utau might even count as an "expert assistant" and give us 2 dice instead of 1.
I don't know what the difficulty of it would be though, assuming it is a feasible approach.
Mind mentioning it so we can think about it and try and workshop it more?
- Pronouns
- He
[x] Tear the place open… deliberately
- Location
- Laniakea
Call the boss room to the front of the castle.
Amu can sense Yui's shadow and knows the castle has a mind - try to connect to that mind from outside the door, tap the collected shadow fragment if possible to call out and bait Yui's Shadow to move her room right up to the door. Empathy assist from Dumpty Key-boosted Utau to improve to baiting action.
Ideally, would use Charisma + Occult + Empathy.
And then if possible, for good measure....
....We have a door in front of us.
I assume it has a lock. Try using the Dumpty Key to unlock the door.
Might get us a +1 from equipment bonus.
Assuming it uses Charisma + Occult + Empathy, we'd get 7 dice plus 1 from Utau, plus 1 from stunt for 9 dice minimum. If Utau counts as an expert and the Dumpty Key can be used as equipment, an extra 2 dice.
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Hm, have Naoto supply more background lore/plan evaluation?
This would likely cost 1 + 2 WP of Amu (Opposed / 2WP buff), and 1WP from Utau (Key); is it feasible to swap Amu and Utau in this scenario so that the failure scenario isn't so bad in terms of WP (and better dice in general lol)? Does sound like it could work, if we assume the Shadow has that degree of control over the castle (which I doubt, but that's what Lore/Occult sanity-checks are for right?)
Additionally, this sounds less Charisma and more Manipulation to me, although I'm not sure about the exact definition of when these Attributes are to be used so
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- Location
- Laniakea
I dunno if it's even feasible at all no matter who tries it, which is why I didn't immediately write it as a stunt.
Would need @Baughn to weigh in and say whether or not it could be done.
Manipulation requires the user having some expectation of what will happen if they do something and then attempting to take advantage of a target's natural reactions to engineer that outcome.
Charisma is just straight up telling them to do it and having them obey by the user's force of personality, a target's natural reactions* be damned.
Either one could be used to write that stunt, but if it were written to use Charisma, you'd be writing it so that the person doing it is directly broadcasting their own will for Yui's shadow to "come here", not trying to bargain or negotiate or fake something else that would lure her.
* Natural reactions, as in conscious, logical inclination. Charisma does appeal to other "natural reactions" of the "monkey-brain instincts" kind. I think there's a good chance Yui's Shadow would have high receptivity to that sort of thing.
Would need @Baughn to weigh in and say whether or not it could be done.
There was a previous post by the QM explaining the difference between Manipulation and Charisma.
Manipulation requires the user having some expectation of what will happen if they do something and then attempting to take advantage of a target's natural reactions to engineer that outcome.
Charisma is just straight up telling them to do it and having them obey by the user's force of personality, a target's natural reactions* be damned.
Either one could be used to write that stunt, but if it were written to use Charisma, you'd be writing it so that the person doing it is directly broadcasting their own will for Yui's shadow to "come here", not trying to bargain or negotiate or fake something else that would lure her.
* Natural reactions, as in conscious, logical inclination. Charisma does appeal to other "natural reactions" of the "monkey-brain instincts" kind. I think there's a good chance Yui's Shadow would have high receptivity to that sort of thing.
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Charisma and non-blocked Mind Control really are two peas in a pod by the listed definition huh (though using Charisma on a questionably coherent Shadow does seems like something that doesn't make sense unless your name is Utau?)
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- Location
- Laniakea
Actually, it says Charisma is what you'd use on something that isn't receptive to logical reasoning:
Shadows are highly emotionally driven, so appeal to monkey-brain instinct seems like the best approach. And that uses Charisma.
I see why Amu is the way she is now!
More seriously, then Manipulation-the-Attribute is in the default Tear Down option because they are trying to poke a system they don't quite understand until the desired results falls out, guided by Occult/Naoto for modified common sense and running off Dreamwalking as the implementation mechanism?
@Baughn can we roll here w/o auto WP cost for "where is the center of the place", or is it autofail due to DC?
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- Location
- Laniakea
That would be my guess.
I expect the default approach likely treats the shadow castle as a mindless construct that can be, well, manipulated in predictable manners. Like a Rubix Cube. Twist one part down and it will slide the whole section down. Twist it the other way and it will reverse the movement. Do it enough in the right order and you can eventually make all the colors nicely line up.
As opposed to, you know, asking the cube to move itself into the right order.
I expect the default approach likely treats the shadow castle as a mindless construct that can be, well, manipulated in predictable manners. Like a Rubix Cube. Twist one part down and it will slide the whole section down. Twist it the other way and it will reverse the movement. Do it enough in the right order and you can eventually make all the colors nicely line up.
As opposed to, you know, asking the cube to move itself into the right order.
My interpretation based on above information is that the default approach is "let's brute force the combination of concepts and associated locations that will bypass us straight to the center" (and was trying to write Stunts about getting a better guess in advance), instead of relying on the guaranteed-to-work-but-has-fights-in-the-way approach on physically walking there through the Dreamlands
Rephrasing: Deafult sounds like traversing an n-dimensional graph to reach your destination, only you aren't sure of the number of nodes linked to each point or the definition of each edge (beyond the ones labelled 'just walking normally'), and which nodes lead to the endpoint? (DFS/BFS/random walk vs dual-end brute force via Stunt)
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- Location
- Laniakea
The option is called "Tear Open A Hole". There's going to be some destruction involved.
Amu and Utau are basically going to be knocking down the walls using psionics as a wrecking ball.
I expect the Dreamwalking (Navigation) + Occult would be needed to tell them which walls they need to knock down and in what order, to get them a clear path to the boss room. Raw Dreamwalking + Manipulation would then be what they use to actually do the wrecking, as some amount of finesse (manipulation) would likely be needed to make sure the walls they demolish don't end up collapsing ontop of them or causing a cave-in that blocks off the rest of their path.
Amu and Utau are basically going to be knocking down the walls using psionics as a wrecking ball.
I expect the Dreamwalking (Navigation) + Occult would be needed to tell them which walls they need to knock down and in what order, to get them a clear path to the boss room. Raw Dreamwalking + Manipulation would then be what they use to actually do the wrecking, as some amount of finesse (manipulation) would likely be needed to make sure the walls they demolish don't end up collapsing ontop of them or causing a cave-in that blocks off the rest of their path.