Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

But girls are weeeeeeird.

It's fun to put bugs in their hair though.
Except when the girl is Taylor. In that case she is the one who put the bugs in your hair. And mouth, nose, lungs, stomach and other places.
...That's right, he would be good at that...

Alectai, were you participating in Gromweld's Alchemical Quest? And if you were, why did we have so many problems after Taylor hit Clarity 10 from the 'fight' with Behemoth?
If i don't misremeber, Taylor had six or seven Clarity, not ten. So alectai was working with a external penality of 3/4. Losing 3/4 successes makes almost every mortal fail! So it wasn't alectai fault.
 
Amu is a child, remember? I was impressed by how well you folks understand her character. Yes I was. :cool:

I can't imagine why. :V




I disagree, we simply don't have enough of the Chara's mechanics in-setting hashed out in order to know one way or another. A major feature of the Chara is their ability to have knowledge and skills that their User don't actually possess. While we know that ordinarily, this is the result of downloading information from the CU, "Sera" was formed under extremely unusual circumstances. Even if we were to obtain a baseline understanding of Chara mechanics for this setting, chances are that Sera wouldn't match up regardless.

The issue with "the exoself is a chara" is not that the exoself does not have certain properties that a chara would. The issue is that the exoself does have properties that no chance-formed entity would: its fundamentally computational nature, and more tellingly its acceptance of a specific certificate in the Exaltation's certification chain as valid and trusted, mean that it has to be a purposefully-created artifact.

It's possible, I suppose, that all chara are really purposefully-created artifacts; but Nyarlathotep stated otherwise to the exoself (that a chara was "extension of the self that Kagutsuchi is forced to allow"), and I see no reason he would either be mistaken or lying about that. (I would understand not trusting his more specific claim that the exoself was specifically not any sort of demonoid extension of the psyche, but I'm not relying on his word there.)

And besides, Occlam's Razor. The Fungus was not present until after that larger Amu-Chara fused with Amu's main body after warding off Conception. Well, technically, it wasn't present at any point prior to Exa-kun going into a resting state as a result of said warding, so there is an opening on that front. But that would assume that the Amu-Chara fusing with Amu would have an entirely different and separate result, one which has not yet been detected by Exa-kun

The exoself could very easily have been (and, by my reading, likely was) inside Amu's body while the "Amu-Chara" was out and about. (In which case, the Amu-Chara was simply a very hurt Amu, manifesting a body after the fashion of a Chara since her usual Kagutsuchi-maintained one... wasn't.)

That may be what you mean with your second sentence, but your third is incoherent, so I can't tell. (You probably mean something like "imply" rather than "assume", but in that case I can't tell what result you think it would have.)

In essence, in order to explain the Fungus as a separate entity unrelated to that Amu-Chara, we'd have to essentially invent a number of potential aftereffects which there simply is no evidence to suggest happened. So we go for the most plausible explanation, which is that the Amu-Chara and the Fungus/Sera are related. While a correlation between the two is by no means confirmed, it's probable enough to assume to be the case, barring evidence indicating otherwise.

Your first sentence makes no sense, but it makes no sense in a way strongly resembling its predecessor, so I'll wait for clarification.

And if they're related to one another, then we can infer that the latter is the remains of the former, given it's ability to interact and meld with Amu's soul, as well as repair it, even if it was only accomplished via Nyarly's influence.

Not even a little bit. As an alternate third hypothesis consider that the exoself may have been a preexisting unanalyzed passenger in Amu's soul, which was pushed out in a fashion mimicking a chara while Amu recovered. In this case the "Amu-Chara" would have been the exoself, but the fungus would not in any sense have been the remains of the Amu-Chara.

(The first part is more reasonable than it may sound. Recall that Amu possesses the Humpty Lock, an artifact of unknown provenance, which may as part of its function have injected an "exoself": a loosely Exaltation-like symbiote intended to induce Chara formation. More simply, it may even be the exoself. I don't actually support this hypothesis, but I can't yet rule it out.

Really, what is the Humpty Lock? I think if we knew that, we'd know a lot more about Charas in general.)



EDIT: Oh, and [X] plan Alectai.
 
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Really, what is the Humpty Lock? I think if we knew that, we'd know a lot more about Charas in general.)
It never really flushes that out. I know when combined with the Dumpty Lock, when both are fully awakened/unlocked, it can summon... I think it was called the World Egg in the show. Basically a Wish-Granting... Egg. All Dreams manifest themselves as Eggs in Shugo Chara, and Chara's hatch from Eggs, so... well at least it stays in theme.

We also know that Chara's are probably linked to the human unconscious, and born from it, thanks to Miki's earlier comment that being there felt like being in her Egg.

So what is the World Egg, no one fucking knows.

Also Humpty and Dumpty probably both allow, at least the potential for, Chara Transformations. Or maybe its just Humpty and those whose its host shares bonds with... actually that sounds more accurate me thinks.

Maybe Humpty allows some form of Dream Realization? On a limited scale as all it really enabled was Chara Transformations and the cleansing of corrupted dreams... The implications of that and who we are talking to is disturbing. And will probably also go badly.

Philemon might also be involved with this thing, I would not be surprised too much.
 
......An egg granting wishes affillated with Philemon? It is almost exactly the opposite of what happened during Persona 2....
Except with less eggs, and more rumors and Nazis.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that all chara are really purposefully-created artifacts; but Nyarlathotep stated otherwise to the exoself (that a chara was "extension of the self that Kagutsuchi is forced to allow"), and I see no reason he would either be mistaken or lying about that. (I would understand not trusting his more specific claim that the exoself was specifically not any sort of demonoid extension of the psyche, but I'm not relying on his word there.)

They could be sub-consciously created artifacts that function as spiritual prosthetics, based, for example, on a template that the core self extracts from the Collective Unconscious and then Shapes into existence.

The fact all charas share some common characteristics lends some very small weight to that idea, as otherwise there wouldn't be a particular reason for them all to manifest in the same kind of way, if it was just Kagutsuchi being to weak to prevent free-form shaping.

That template could contain all sorts of things, interface instructions for the Humpty Lock amongst them, without the core self being at all aware of them, just as they aren't aware of the skills they download into the chara from the CU.
 
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Also Humpty and Dumpty probably both allow, at least the potential for, Chara Transformations. Or maybe its just Humpty and those whose its host shares bonds with... actually that sounds more accurate me thinks.
That might make the link between the Humpty Lock and Exoself-Sera more likely. After all we know the Exo-self is maintaining 4 links, which would fit the 4 Chara we know of, 3 active and about and one in an egg. In that respect it actually does give a bit of a sense of being a bit like an administrative system...

Speculation time; could it be something that was meant to make humans more powerful, an artifact a bit like an Exaltation? Or atleast something that allows increased functionality to a human? Or maybe it's more broad and just happens to be with a human now?

They could be sub-consciously created artifacts that function as spiritual prosthetics, based, for example, on a template that the core self extracts from the Collective Unconscious and then Shapes into existence.

The fact all charas share some common characteristics lends some very small weight to that idea, as otherwise there wouldn't be a particular reason for them all to manifest in the same kind of way, if it was just Kagutsuchi being to weak to prevent free-form shaping.

That template could contain all sorts of things, interface instructions for the Humpty Lock amongst them, without the core self being at all aware of them, just as they aren't aware of the skills they download into the chara from the CU.
Even if that's the case, having an actual signing chain is a bit much for anything short of artifact work top to bottom. Unless we're now speculating that the CU is also an artifact?

So this would probably continue to make the Exo-self stand as anomalous compared to Chara in general.
 
[X] Alectai

I don't think applying Utena's metaphysics will help you here, guys... hmm... well, maybe, by way of analogies...
 
On a different note, I may not be able to finish much of anything this week. We're ramping up to something at work, something which I've put a lot of time into over the last few years, and I intend to put in a bit of voluntary overtime. But we'll see. It's just this week, anyhow.

<SO VERY REDACTED>
 
Aww :(

Does that at least mean we might get an update tonight before all that kicks in?
 
Aww :(

Does that at least mean we might get an update tonight before all that kicks in?
It's 2am here, so no. I'd give it a >50% chance that there is an update next week (this week), prior to the weekend; there definitely will be one next weekend.

So as to not leave you all completely in the lurch, today's fanfic recommendations are The Two Year Emperor—a proper demonstration of what RAW actually means—and All Consuming Friendship, which demonstrates just how alien Amu's world could have been if Kagutsuchi had had different restrictions. It also will probably feature pink laser beams of doom.
 
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Have fun Baughn

Revel in that crunch time

@Count, are you arguing classification or identity?

Both: classification, then identity based on it. The classification claim is pretty strong; the identity claim is weaker, being more along the lines of "I may not know exactly what happened, but I do know it wasn't that."
 
Both: classification, then identity based on it. The classification claim is pretty strong; the identity claim is weaker, being more along the lines of "I may not know exactly what happened, but I do know it wasn't that."
I'm just arguing identity, so take a look back over the sentences under the assumption that I "am identifying what this specific phenomenon is in the story, while hashing out what exactly it is not the main focus of the argument"
 
Hm... It occurs to me that, if Exaltation is struggling with "what is a human/what does it mean to be - or qualify as - a human"... well. We are in humanity's collective unconsciousness right now, aren't we?

In that sense, this is probably the territory from which we can osmose the question of human nature; because we're basically surrounded by it.

Though, uh, Nyarlathotep is also nearby. Don't want to pattern anything after him.
 
Hm... It occurs to me that, if Exaltation is struggling with "what is a human/what does it mean to be - or qualify as - a human"... well. We are in humanity's collective unconsciousness right now, aren't we?
No, that's not what the Exaltation is struggling with. It's struggling with making sure that Amu fits the definition its binding protocols use.
 
No, that's not what the Exaltation is struggling with. It's struggling with making sure that Amu fits the definition its binding protocols use.
It's making good headway into the what-is-a-human, yes. I'm thinking that a next step, could be altering those binding protocols, the ones that have a specific definition of humanity in them. And that being able to sample stuff from the Collective Unconsciousness, will give it a metaphysical sample of what humanity is like and what abilities and potential and extra stuff is associated with humanity, in the Megami Tensei world. (Not just on a philosophical level of "what is a man?" but also just signs like "Personas and Charas are things that SMT humans can have, it's all cool.")
 
It's making good headway into the what-is-a-human, yes. I'm thinking that a next step, could be altering those binding protocols, the ones that have a specific definition of humanity in them.
I'm thinking that would be a terrible terrible horrible idea. First of all, the human-verification protocols have NEVER been successfully altered. Secondly, if we demonstrate how to alter them, one of the super-heavyweight players will cheerfully take advantage of that to rewrite the protocols to apply to itself or one of its minions
 
I'm thinking that would be a terrible terrible horrible idea. First of all, the human-verification protocols have NEVER been successfully altered. Secondly, if we demonstrate how to alter them, one of the super-heavyweight players will cheerfully take advantage of that to rewrite the protocols to apply to itself or one of its minions
Yozis stretched the definition for Infernals, and Autochton did that for his Alchemicals. Neverborn stretched it SLIGHTLY with the bodymod charms, and the Wyld did it for Chimera Lunars.
 
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