dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Her Maia nature manufacturing dramatic entrances effortlessly. Love it.
Draconic law enforcement? Like, dragon bobbies that come round ensuring you don't lie on your neighbor's pile of gold?
Ring-Maker [Worm/Lord of the Rings Alt-Power] [Complete]
- Thread starter Lithos Maitreya
- Start date
- Crossover Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Her Maia nature manufacturing dramatic entrances effortlessly. Love it.
Draconic law enforcement? Like, dragon bobbies that come round ensuring you don't lie on your neighbor's pile of gold?
hghwolf
Bird of contempt
Sorry, I didn`t even notice your post until just now, so the reply is a little delayed.
It`s not like I WANT to lock Dinah in a cell and pump her full of drugs. But there`s a lot of degrees between 'organic appliance' and 'completely free'. Ideally, and considering the resources available it should be simplicity itself to provide her with a comfortable domicile, and if she cooperates there`s no reason to drug her. Even payment, if desired, shouldn`t be an issue. And once the htreat is resolved I, and my co-conspirators, should moderately happily submit ourselves to legal authority for the things we`ve done. The ends do not, in fact, justify the means completely, and it`d be hypocrisy itself to evade the consequences of ones actions here.
But considering the threat level, and considering Dinahs power, leaving her free to do as she likes and exposing her to threats to her ability to use her powers towards the removal of the threat is irresponsible. If she`s not willing to cooperate with the appropriate measures then she must be made to. As comfortably and copacetic as possible, but as forcefully and compulsively as needed, and sadly that involves depriving her of her freedom, voluntarily or not.
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- Location
- Russia
No offense directly to you, honest, but that last paragraph made me feel legitimately sick. As in physically I felt something go weird in my stomach while reading that, the same feeling that I normally get when reading about some of the crappier recent news. I guess that's another bit on what my body feels about necessary evils?
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KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Assuming that evils are ever necessary, that is.
hghwolf
Bird of contempt
No offense taken. I understand that it`s not a popular position to take, and I wouldn`t for lesser threat than global extinction. Extinction events just have this way of making everything else not matter as much, for a time at least.
The pieces can be picked up later, but first we have to ensure there are even pieces to pick up, and people to do it.
- Location
- Pacific NW
Say you stop the extinction event using such methods. Is existence so paramount that it is the only end at any cost? All material things die or come to an end. Is life itself worth warping or damaging the soul over?
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's not worth it. Torturing a little girl isn't worth it, and never will be. Usually I am sympathetic to utilitarianism, but in this case, I simply can't be. There are actions that are wrong, cannot be justified, and cannot be worth it. Torturing an innocent? One of those actions.
I was wondering about this earlier - Dinah obviously knows enough about Annatar to be afraid (thus implying she 'knew' about Annatar in some capacity, and/or through her looking at Annatar's actions via Coil's questions) - and she, of anyone in Annatar's 'circle of influence', was the one who could unambiguously be called an innocent.
That being said, on her own, she lacks the power to really actively oppose Anna-Sauron, and given that things are coming to a crux with Annatar's own internal alignment, I don't see her pulling an Emma, and/or joining with Oracle....though come to think of it, her statistical probability could potentially serve as a rebuttal to Emma's 'sureness' that Annatar is destined to go full Sauron.
Anywho.....I'm a little confused on Coil going down like a little bitch - I recognize he's not as tough as Amy (who has been massively holding back), and that his power is mainly reliant on the element of surprise/forethought and planning....but even for someone who leashed himself to the ring, rather than being its true bearer, Sophia (solo) has such little trouble with him that it makes things feel a little....discrepant.
That is, unless he secretly already unleashed Noelle, and/or the Empire names as a final fuck you, but that seems less likely given how subservient he's come across since his being made into a pseudo/proto-ringwraith. The alternative is that it's a body double, but that feels like something Sophia would have caught with her ring powers.
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Lithos Maitreya
Character Witness
- Location
- United States
Coil had just collapsed his timelines. He had no backup. Sophia attacked the base in both continuities, and won in both. He took a more aggressive approach in one, opening with gunfire rather than intimidation, and got himself killed. He was only incapacitated in this version. His power decided, mostly on its own, that being stripped of Narya was better than dying.
I can possibly clarify some of this in the chapter. We will see. The important thing to remember is that Coil is not that strong if you happen to catch him just after he collapses his timelines, which Sophia did, out of pure "luck."
I can possibly clarify some of this in the chapter. We will see. The important thing to remember is that Coil is not that strong if you happen to catch him just after he collapses his timelines, which Sophia did, out of pure "luck."
hghwolf
Bird of contempt
I mean if I believed in the afterlife then your question might do more than make me chuckle a bit, but I don`t, so it doesn`t.
Short answer : Yes.
Long answer : Even assuming a metaphysical soul exists, hell yes.
Oh yeah, cause the very first thing to try here is torture. That sort of thing only hits the table if Dinah decides to place her own freedom of choice over literally every human being, at which point I`m not sure 'little girl' makes up for 'supports genocide, actively suicidal, believes her freedom supercedes the freedom of every other human.' Death, may I remind you, severely limits your options for self expression. 'innocent' certainly stops applying the moment she makes that decision, assuming it is informed.
Is this getting through yet ? If Dinah is allowed the freedom to waste her power and be vulnerable to opportunistics fucks like Coil, or even just pure life risk factors, that directly, negatively impacts the chances of any human at all seeing another day. Having to spend up to two decades in a golden cage might suck for Dinah but if that increases the chance for all of humanity to survive a guaranteed to come extinction level event by even 1% ? Dinah can suck it up.
But hey, let`s make it simple. See, I`ve got a magic device. When it activates there`s a chance everyone dies. I`ve also got this innocent human here, who is aware of the situation and may or may not cooperate with you. If you torture him, not a lot, just some light physical and emotional pain for a couple minutes the chance for everyone to die when the device activates goes down by, let`s say... 10%.
In one hour the device will activate. You cannot prevent it, nor can anyone else.
Do you torture the human ?
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- Location
- Russia
I'd probably offer myself in that situation, because it's the easier thing to do for me. At the very least it would take the choice out of my hands, and give the other person at least some morale respite in knowing that I fully volunteered.
Vani
(Verified Squid)
- Location
- Europe
The problem with that approach is that you want Dinah to help you. The more you fuck her over, the more likely she is to sabotage you instead, even if only by spending all of her questions before you get to ask yours, at which point you'll just be shit out of luck. Dinah only went along with Coil because she was, every single day, testing out her chances of rescue, and had Taylor's rescue (though she didn't know what it was at the time) ahead of her to give her a good percentage on that. The more you think Dinah can suck it up and are ready to go all the way to sacrificing her, the more likely you are to have "Dinah dies/is imprisoned forever" endings ahead that she can see, and the least likely she'll be to help you. As Coil himself figured out, having Dinah doesn't actually help you save the world in and of itself -- you need to have your kidnapping of her not get you killed.
To boot, as canon shows, Dinah wants to save the world. How about not holding her in anything whatsoever and just doing what canon did, which is help protect her as she decides to be protected (what with how she's the precog who knows what will work, not us), and let her help save the world all by herself?
I mean, I see the argument you're trying to make, but Dinah is kind of an atrocious example to pick to make it, what with how she'll help you by default if you just leave her alone...
- Location
- Russia
I mean, Dinah was kidnapped in the first place specifically because everyone wasn't listening to her and thought they knew better.
hghwolf
Bird of contempt
You can`t. It specifically has to be that one human.
It`s a noble impulse, but it`s one that costs 10% chance for everyone to live.
Absolutely. While I can`t help but present a stick, I have no problems dropping quite a few carrots either. I`d even prefer her to cooperate, not fuck over humanity for her own selfish reasons, the whole nine yards. Forcing her compliance through whatever means is literally the last action I would or want to take, but I can`t justify NOT doing it should it prove neccesary.
Also 100% true. However, in this hypothetical situation I A : Am part of Cauldron, so good fucking luck breaking her out. B : Have every intention of letting her go once humanity is saved, with a lot of money or whatever she wants within my power to provide for services rendered no matter how much coercion had to happen. C : Am actually working towards something other than my own personal advantage. D : Have fully disclosed everything about the situation from the word go.
Added risk for net loss. It`s better if Dinah spends all questions on 'how save humanity' than having to earmark some for her personal safety, because not doing that is hilariously risky . If she can`t see that she`s stupid. If she understands that and STILL wants to remain outside a very secure, very secret location until the threat is resolved she`s immoral.
She`s actually the best example, simply because she could help MORE, but for some reason people want to prioritize her personal freedoms over more help with, y`know, everyone not dying. The stakes are too high for anything other than total and complete commitment to be morally justifieable.
Again though, if the stakes were anywhere below 'planetary extinction' I would consider my current position to be too extreme, and if there is ANY personal gain going on on my end beyond what literally everyone gets out of it - to live - then I immediately lose all justification for any negative coercion I undertake.
But moral imperative from a divine entity is so BORING.
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Vani
(Verified Squid)
- Location
- Europe
Yeah pretty much. That's the thing with Eä: it comes with an actual God whose presence can be verified. Morality debates are irrelevant, in those circumstances, unless one wants to take them up to Eru in-universe.
(Which to be fair might have fantastic results! Arda is rather lacking in people of good faith willing to go argue morality with the local god. All they got was Melkor, who had a shit argument, and Mairon, who had a better one but lost track halfway through. Maybe Ring-Maker!Mairon can become that person in time. It'd only be fitting, considering the author is, IIRC from the SpaceBattles thread, Jewish.)
In addition to that, I don't think it's possible to have an actual proper morality debate about this particular subject (one person's worth of utilons vs everyone else/one child vs the world) in a fanfic thread, let alone a Ring-Maker one. These have a bad history of getting the thread locked. Better to go find an online discussion about The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas, which will not only be much more apropos, but likely generate much more intelligent discussions on all sides of the argument to boot -- and so not risk devolving into each side insulting the others by proxy.
Edit because Imped:
No, she's a terrible example, because we have the benefit of having read canon and so already know that she saves the world if you just leave her alone. She's even willing to sacrifice the person who saved her to do so. Dinah's fine, man. She doesn't need either of us and our shit priors to do this!
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Lithos Maitreya
Character Witness
- Location
- United States
You would be correct. I am, however, pulling very heavily from Christian and especially Catholic tradition in the writing of this story.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Further proof that the Entities have no idea what they're dealing with.
Further proof that the Entities have no idea what they're dealing with.
Can't use your power to generate more conflict if you're dead - though that does put some question as to whether or not Coil actually did become a full ringwraith or not....
- Location
- Somewhere, Maybe
There are actions that cannot be justified, actions that are evil, but that does not presuppose that those very same actions might, indeed be -necessary-. After all, there's no guarantee that he who saves the world, gets to live in it afterwards.
I actually enjoy those sorts of stories, the ones where the secret saviors of the world, after it's saved, pack everything up, destroy their abominations against the natural order, end the suffering of the innocents they caused, write out a heartfelt appology, and commit suicide, because of the extreme nature of What Had To Be Done.
Hell, I think that Contessa is waiting patiently and calmly, and even looking forward to Step N+1: Kill myself.
Lithos Maitreya
Character Witness
- Location
- United States
I thought it was clear from canon that Contessa had abdicated any responsibility for her own actions and was refusing to acknowledge her guilt in the atrocities committed in the name of victory. But that's a debate for another thread.
Uh.....no?
At least in canon, her last conversation with Khepri is more along the lines of 'I think I'll try doing my own thing now' - which is echoed (somewhat) in Ward.
Could be different here if her jailbroken shard told her about Ungoliant and/or Eru (and thus she would know Cauldron's entire aim is fucked), but that probably won't be forthcoming for a fair few arcs.
Vani
(Verified Squid)
- Location
- Europe
Posting in spite of the "another thread" remark due to there being an actual answer to this question, but it happens to be in Ward, whom many people in this thread aren't reading:
Contessa is going by Fortuna again, has left Number Man on one side and Teacher on another in charge of the two main Cauldron remnant factions, and has taken off on an impromptu incommunicado vacation.
"N+1: Kill myself" was Doctor Mother, as seen from her own interlude, in which it's made very, very clear that she expected to die -- to the point being given a vague chance to survive scared her, because she had no idea what to do with herself in such a scenario and had never even planned for it. She was utterly certain that she wouldn't get to see the world she saved, and fully expected an atrocious death, be it at the hands of Scion, a rebellion of some sort, or whoever decided to enact justice upon Cauldron.
hghwolf
Bird of contempt
So ? It working out in canon doesn`t invalidate my argument. If I had the meta knowledge that, leaving her alone, the world would be exactly as saved as if I did my caged oracle plan then yes, I would leave her alone. Anything else would immoral. But I`m arguing from the position that I DON`T know that, because how can I ?
Oh yeah, I could ask Dinah. See, she`s already useful before it`s even been determined what is going to happen with her.