Reds! A Revolutionary Timeline

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But I'm curious about the broader societal effects of the TTL Arduous March.

1. Are Americans TTL practically solidified in their hatred of capitalism after having to devote so much to help their comrade nations rebuild from the brutality of fascism?

2. Is there no growth in living standards for roughly a decade?

3. Does the closeness of Comintern stem from America doing so much to resuscitate its allies? Do the various Comintern nations feel tremendous loyalty to a country that is sacrificing a ton to revive them?

4. Do other parts of Comintern, like Mexico and the Red Carribean, industrialize to pick up the slack?

5. Are there any positive effects of this era, like technological innovation and finding ways to do more with less?

6. Does this era make Americans more inclined to collective action, seeing as they have had to both fight the most massive war in history and spend years rebuilding much of Eurasia?

we're still on World War II, be patient and you'll get your answer

but for the first one, why do you think this would make americans hate captialism and not, you know, the revolution they fought to destroy it?
 
I don't know. Arduous March sounds a bit pessimistic. Why not the "Great Recovery" or the "Great Renewal" to give this era a sense of triumph rather than pain?
Because in universe, it's named after a turn of phrase from a speech given by the American foreign secretary at the world congress of the Comintern, where he announced the rebuilding program for the peace they'd just won, that the work was just beginning and an 'arduous march' to the promised land still lay ahead
 
we're still on World War II, be patient and you'll get your answer

but for the first one, why do you think this would make americans hate captialism and not, you know, the revolution they fought to destroy it?

The revolution obviously made Americans hate capitalism, but will the horrors of the Global Revolutionary War, enabled in part by the capitalist democracies of Western Europe, solidify the belief in all Americans that capitalism is a monstrous entity that needs to be torn down?

Will seeing the horrors committed by the Germans with British steel be one of those things that leads to the rise of Liberation as its own party?

Because in universe, it's named after a turn of phrase from a speech given by the American foreign secretary at the world congress of the Comintern, where he announced the rebuilding program for the peace they'd just won, that the work was just beginning and an 'arduous march' to the promised land still lay ahead

So basically, its combination of there being a great struggle, but with a sense of hope and progress anyways?
 
The revolution obviously made Americans hate capitalism, but will the horrors of the Global Revolutionary War, enabled in part by the capitalist democracies of Western Europe, solidify the belief in all Americans that capitalism is a monstrous entity that needs to be torn down?

Will seeing the horrors committed by the Germans with British steel be one of those things that leads to the rise of Liberation as its own party?

The UASR hated capitalism the moment it was born. The whole point of communism, especially ITTL, is "We are going to replace capitalism".
 
The UASR hated capitalism the moment it was born. The whole point of communism, especially ITTL, is "We are going to replace capitalism".

So the goal of the UASR, from its founding, has been to forment worldwide revolution. And as brutal as the "Great Revolutionary War" was, most UASR Americans just see it as one part of their generations-long conflict?
 
Yes? Capitalism is still around, if the goal is true world revolution that means there's more to do.

I ask this question because, OTL, the horrors of Nazism shocked the world when they were uncovered.

Does this feeling not really exist in the UASR, since their experiences in the Second American Civil War have already made them accept that capitalists will do anything for power?
 
I ask this question because, OTL, the horrors of Nazism shocked the world when they were uncovered.

Does this feeling not really exist in the UASR, since their experiences in the Second American Civil War have already made them accept that capitalists will do anything for power?
There was a window immediately postwar when there was legitimate hope that the FBU would vote itself into socialism, the betrayal of that dream and the reaction to the Horn War suggest that there were still some depths the Cosmintern believed the non-fascist capitalist powers would refuse to sink to that proved incorrect.
 
There was a window immediately postwar when there was legitimate hope that the FBU would vote itself into socialism, the betrayal of that dream and the reaction to the Horn War suggest that there were still some depths the Cosmintern believed the non-fascist capitalist powers would refuse to sink to that proved incorrect.

In other words…

1. Amid the horrors of fascist aggression, the Comintern hoped the FBU would make some reforms.

2. The capitalist states didn't.

3. Now the Comintern believes the capitalists powers are just fascists in disguise?
 
That or fascists in waiting.
I mean "Fascism is just capitalism in decay" is probably a lesson they've deeply internalized

OTL, George Orwell wrote "Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'."

TTL, this has come true more so than OTL, with many of the "neutral" nations becoming de facto enablers of the Nazis at best, and straight up collaborators at worst. The French themselves became so corrupted by their "neutrality" that they made the jump to straight up allying with the Nazis and their evil schemes.

The fact that even the Magna-Carta loving Brits and moderate Finns had no problem profiting from the Nazi's plunder of Europe only seems to reinforce the notion that capitalism is evil, and even the postwar reforms of the FBU and the post-MacArthur reforms of Americuba are just the slaveowners throwing more crumbs to keep their slaves from rebelling.

And for that matter, why isn't the UASR called The Great People's Dinner Party?

Are you being facetious?
 
Plus a lot of propaganda does embrace - 'the road ahead is hard but our cause is just and we're going to suceed' - see Kennedy's Rice University Speech for example. It is in fact, if used appropriately, a very effective rhetorical device as it invites solidarity and suggests that the audience is strong enough to rise to the occasion (in other words, it is more often than not pretty open flattery).

Obviously there are limits to this but the UASR in the late 1940s and 50s is riding off a huge legitimacy boost from victory in the Second World War and the impression I get is that while the Arduous March does impose material hardship on the home front, its less North Korean Arduous March so much as continuing America's wartime economic regime, which is still enormously better than a large chunk of the rest of the world at the time or throughout human history. Point is the UASR has a lot of capacity to weather these conditions. I'm sure it isn't a coincidence this is the closest we get to the Worker's Party/its successors losing power but even then the outcome seems to be that they maintain their hegemony over the state in the long run.
 
Plus a lot of propaganda does embrace - 'the road ahead is hard but our cause is just and we're going to suceed' - see Kennedy's Rice University Speech for example. It is in fact, if used appropriately, a very effective rhetorical device as it invites solidarity and suggests that the audience is strong enough to rise to the occasion (in other words, it is more often than not pretty open flattery).

Obviously there are limits to this but the UASR in the late 1940s and 50s is riding off a huge legitimacy boost from victory in the Second World War and the impression I get is that while the Arduous March does impose material hardship on the home front, its less North Korean Arduous March so much as continuing America's wartime economic regime, which is still enormously better than a large chunk of the rest of the world at the time or throughout human history. Point is the UASR has a lot of capacity to weather these conditions. I'm sure it isn't a coincidence this is the closest we get to the Worker's Party/its successors losing power but even then the outcome seems to be that they maintain their hegemony over the state in the long run.

But I wonder if the Arduous March also has incredible propaganda value. While the FBU elites traded with Nazis and treated their colonies like cargo, the UASR endured incredible hardship and scarcity to keep their comrade nations running.

TTL, the peoples of Eastern Europe have even more reason to dislike the West and become disillusioned with the old order, but does the story of Americans giving up luxuries to get Eastern Europe make the average Polish and Hungarian person more loyal?

If you are a Vietnamese person slaving away to feed a bunch of French corporations, does learning about the Americans forgoing their own prosperity to help the world make the allure of communism stronger?

And again, does this lead to a communist bloc that is more stable and unified?
 
It is important to note through his death, Lenin himself regarded what they were doing as

"just basic Marxism though with (conjectural) 'post-Russian Imperial but lest missing German etc continental revolutions' characteristics"

the whole way through — the 'making virtue of necessity' overtheorizations that got 'canonized' into the "early & Lenin-lucid Comintern"-theses — were as much dynamically 'bottom-up' responses to the international movement's conjectural situations as well as simulatiously & interpretating with 'Soviet state-internal' conjectural conditions

"Marxism-Leninism" was dogmatization (in the Catholic sense) of what was built upon 'emergent' those 'Lenin-lucid' kludges and improvisations and theoretical conjectures + together with the collective-dictatura rei gerenda causa's self-perpetuating opportunism & realpolitik

So for the WPA / W(C)PA, ITTL, "Marxism- DeLeonism" is just as much the same Lenin-authentic "just simple Marxism but with American characteristics in the international conjecture" because of their different conditions

I mean 1933-USA IOTL is already demographically:

[ 1 ] majority urban, near-60%:
( a ) vast-majority proletarian
( b ) minority professionals, white-collars, shopkeepers, etc

[ 2 ] while the of rural population (somewhat greater than 40%) are split between:
( a ) sharecroppers ['formal-subsumption' toilers]
( b ) rural workers
( c ) ruined to near-ruin mortgaged diehard wannabe family commercial farmers
( d ) well-capitalized resident commercial farmers / farming operators

— so at a stroke, the USA-1933 vs 'Empire of All-the-Russia's'-1917

enjoys a proletarian vs non-proletarian balance of easily >50% urban proletarians + >20% rural proletarians or near-proletarians = >60-70% proletarians or near-proletarians total

while latter had <20% proletarians

— any even crude Marxist would simply use a mechanistic material-deterministic formula to say that USA-1933 would call for a different implementation for "simple basic Marxism" than would 'Empire of All-the-Russias'-1917

I've said before even though it's more complicated in the fine-grain of course [namely: in developed capitalist regimes, the communist movement had failed to solve the problem of institutionally subordinating the labor movement & left-political officialdom as such; while the more mature capitalist regimes had already put out feelers to rule with support of their loyalty pledges]: that if you just map the political support demographically proportionally from Red October 1917 in the II All-Russian Congress of Soviets to that of Germany in 1919

Then the "Bolshevik / Left-SR / etc"-equivalent in Germany-1919 handedly sweeps not only the Reichskongress der Arbeiter- und Soldatenräte but also even ( albeit with reduced dominance of the revolutionaries ) theVerfassunggebende Deutsche Nationalversammlung

The key issue was solving the question of political independence vis-a-vis the constitutional regime ahead of time so as to pose a credible and clear alternative the workers were already politically agitated and educated to, and also of course, in the absence of the poisoned chalice of Russian Bolshevik 1918 emergency expenditures mixed with opportunism

Incidentally, is why I think a 'Soviet-type' system is more likely to be plausibly adopted and believed by American workers is if in pre-1933 agitation ITTL it is openly asserted in party education that the 'Russian system' is for modernizing a peasant country without literacy; while an 'American system' would require multi-candidate, multi-party elections, and any councilar system would feature open-list MMP proportionality with binding proportionality through self-selection upwards, and disavowal of a single-party state: you can pick your party leaders & you can pick your government

Such that the concept of a "workers' / socialist" republic is filtered down to masses at some scale, been experienced in practice in the union federation & party, and there are hard commitments that these are the principles that the communists intend for any revision of the bourgeois constitutional republic in favor of the workers'-people's charter

It was a serious problem that 'Cominternism' was saddled with prettifying the Soviet exigencies from a rather early date, as even putting aside bourgeois hysterical propaganda it still was readily apparent that the Russian state was not the promise which had been agitated and educated to the mass organized and left politicized workers and there was little getting away from that

Yeah, Aelita has plans for the postwar constitutional order and there is going to be a de facto multiparty system though these parties are all formally under a big tent single-party state regime with common and shared party-state organs and institutions, even an occasional party congress. I call it a "one party, multiple politburos" system.

The workers' state sponsors at least two national Communist Party ballot lines (Liberation and Communist Labor, eventually Social Ecology and I think, Democratic Farmer-Labor would be integrated into it as well) and there are going to be multiple sub-organizations that gives consistent or wavering support every election cycle between those ballot lines (and may have their own ballot lines locally).

I wouldn't be surprised if there is going to be a hybrid system between the U.S. political party model and the traditional political party model. The former integrates the Workers' Communist Party deeper into the party-state and gives the UASR its own version of Republican and Democratic ballot lines that are both automatically on the ballot every election, while other parties have to go through more restrictive qualifications to get to the ballot unless you are a party with pre-existing support base before the Revolution like the DFLP and DRP (once upon a time the role of the Socialist Labor Party as an unwelcome major party) so you pass those requirements and qualifications easily. It becomes cost-prohibitive and it's even easier to be an independent. Becoming a member of the Party may still remain a more vetted and vigorous process like the latter model but once you are a member, you can freely register your affiliation like how a U.S. citizen registers their party affiliation. The uniqueness of this is on how the government itself has partial control over the process, just like how it looks like on the U.S. model, though there's no doubt that selection of party officials is a blanket and closed primary process by default. No open primaries at all.

Or if not that hybridity, it could even look like how you may have a difference between active dues-paying membership vs formal casual membership with no fees/dues. Your Liberation, Communist Labor or Social Ecology affiliation that you declared as a citizen/resident/non-resident may entitle you to some very limited rights, privileges and responsibilities as a general Communist Party member, which you may exercise or not, but you may still need to go through a vetting process that elevates that membership to a higher level and gives you more rights to participate further into the general work of the Party and to elect more party officials, even become a member of a party congress, which a casual membership does not grant.

It's a hybrid, as I've said, between a traditional membership-style organization and a state-sponsored electoral vehicle that those two U.S. major parties are in reality.
 
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we're still on World War II, be patient and you'll get your answer

but for the first one, why do you think this would make americans hate captialism and not, you know, the revolution they fought to destroy it?

How is this TL still on WW2? Are the Nazis just super OP right now and making all the right decisions to stay in the game against the Soviets and US
 
How is this TL still on WW2? Are the Nazis just super OP right now and making all the right decisions to stay in the game against the Soviets and US
I mean they have to be super OP to not be instantly crushed by the curbstomp of a buff a Communist America gives the Comintern but regardless you have to walk before you can run. All the details at this stage are warranted because they set the stage for a massively different Cold War that's still going to the present. Plus it's not like you don't have deets, there are threadmarked posts either directly talking about postwar developments or throwaway lines implying serious shifts. There's a whole post set in '79 about the last time the Cold War almost went hot/the Comintern abandoning the money-form for god's sake. The timeline is like 15 years old and this is by far the best version yet, you gotta letem cook.
 
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How is this TL still on WW2? Are the Nazis just super OP right now and making all the right decisions to stay in the game against the Soviets and US

I feel like the explanations given so far have been pretty compelling?

Here are all the factors that are strengthening the Nazis ITTL:

-Greater investment from Britain and France in the interwar era.
-British neutrality, at least at first (This means that the Nazis can trade for both rubber and oil)
-Reorganization of the Nazi war economy along Fordist lines (this is huge, the Nazi war industry was famously haphazard and inefficient IOTL)
-No war with France/battle for Britain (This is also really big, especially when it comes to the air war)
-France sending most of its army to fight -alongside- Germany at some point.
-Turkish entry into the war.

Finally, any American intervention is going to be seriously hampered by the logistics issue early on - even assuming that Japan isn't an issue (which it very much -is- at first), the Trans-Siberian railway is very much not capable of supporting hundreds of thousands of American troops with long logistics trails, so it will take quite awhile to build up the infastructure required to get things going.
 
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-Greater investment from Britain and France in the interwar era.
-British neutrality, at least at first (This means that the Nazis can trade for both rubber and oil)
-Reorganization of the Nazi war economy along Fordist lines (this is huge, the Nazi war industry was famously haphazard and inefficient IOTL)
-No war with France/battle for Britain (This is also really big, especially when it comes to the air war)
-France sending most of its army to fight -alongside- Germany at some point.
-Turkish entry into the war.

Also...

-Fear of communism meant Britain and France were less hesitant to let the Nazis and Italian fascists conquer Eastern Europe and consolidate their gains.
-Italians discovered oil in Libya earlier than OTL, giving the Axis a more secure oil supply.
-The Sudeten crisis led to a German-Czechoslovak war. While the Germans won, the brutal slog forced the German army to update its tactics.
-Brazil and Sweden also joined the Axis, forcing the UASR to fight on even larger fronts and supply more areas.
 
I mean they have to be super OP to not be instantly crushed by the curbstomp of a buff a Communist America gives the Comintern but regardless you have to walk before you can run. All the details at this stage are warranted because they set the stage for a massively different Cold War that's still going to the present. Plus it's not like you don't have deets, there are threadmarked posts either directly talking about postwar developments or throwaway lines implying serious shifts. There's a whole post set in '79 about the last time the Cold War almost went hot/the Comintern abandoning the money-form for god's sake. The timeline is like 15 years old and this is by far the best version yet, you gotta letem cook.

Yeah I remember this TL back in 2012 on AH.com when it was still cool and the original version of Reds was quite literally my second timeline that I read most of.
 
How is this TL still on WW2? Are the Nazis just super OP right now and making all the right decisions to stay in the game against the Soviets and US
The Doylist answer is that the TL did, almost, get to the end of WW2 before the jump to SV. Thing is, the forum migration coincided with a massive revision of previously-posted material all the way back to the POD. Add in RL concerns (remember, nobody's getting paid for this and rent remains a thing) and, well, here we are.
 
How is this TL still on WW2? Are the Nazis just super OP right now and making all the right decisions to stay in the game against the Soviets and US

no it's because this is a collaborative timeline done by people living in different parts of the world who have jobs not related to the TL.
 
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