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Pro Patria (Valkyria Chronicles)

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Ghazkull said:
@Sturmi so you want us to hunker down somewhere and hold the line? For how long? When is help going to come? Is help going to come?

What i took out from the turn updates so far was that we are on our own behind enemy lines. What we can do is keep on moving and leave chaos and destruction behind.

Holding a position here has several problems: we have no stockpiles whatsoever so we can't hold long. We won't get regular supply drops in such amounts to make it viable either. We can't get to close to the sea (aka occupying and fortifying Sinope) because enemy has sea superiority. And as far as i have seen there is no other really viable spot to set up a good defensive position.

However the enemy is not really sure about our numbers nor about our exact intent (thats why they detached a corps). What we can pretty securely assume is that they have not detached armored units in any large quantities since the front is at a standstill and detaching armored troops would be too much of a weakening.

And we can use that. The current area just has nothing of interest in my eyes so my idea in general was to raid as many arsenals as possible , take what supplies we can get and just continue fighting our way towards the frontline and maybe somehow suddenly appear in their back forcing them to detach even more forces to come towards us or alternatively simply find some other juicy target. If that single corps cant catch us they need to detach another one. However if we hunker down we give up all initiative, which is basically one of the few thing we do have.

The enemy is off balance if we allow him to regain balance we are getting screwed unless miracles happen. However if we push and push and push we keep him unbalanced maybe long enough for some miracle to happen.

tl;dr keep mobile, keep pushing, attack only weak spots, avoid getting bogged down, try and link up with the frontline or make a right proper mess of things.
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Hunkering down and attempting to fight is in fact exactly what I am trying to propose. I want to trap a large section of the corps somewhere in this area and try to repeat our earlier feat against the militia division at the beaches.

I think I addressed this in an earlier post, but trying to make it to the front is even more suicidal than what I'm proposing. We cannot hide the movement of what is effectively an entire division of soldiers for very long, and judging by the good old mark one eyeball, we have to be at least 100km from the front, it not more. The reason they don't already know where we are is because the civilians haven't had time for the rumor mill to go a running, and we decapitated the command structure the first time, which we will hopefully be able to do a second time. Soldiers moving is not a subtle activity. We cannot hide.

If we start roaming the country side for targets of opportunity, we are going to run out of fuel far faster than we will be able to find it forcing us to abandon the tanks, one of our only true advantages, and the population will keep basic tabs on wherever we are. We don't have a speed advantage to use for running away, and we most certainly will not know where the corps is coming from.

Also, what makes you sure that they won't detach armored units? They've already dispatched 30k-40k soldiers, what makes you so sure they can't throw in a few armored companies?

The opponent currently has approximate parity with the Imperial navy, although that won't be the case for long. If we manage to defeat this corps, an evacuation becomes at least possible, if not likely. If we destroy the corps, then we are under far less pressure. The Federation cannot afford to pull another corps of the front to deal with us after that, and the Federation will think twice about trying to intercept an evacuation convoy after the spanking they got in the Ligurian sea.

Initiative has become less valuable in this stage of combat. Because we are not supplied, because we have no reinforcements, because we cannot evacuate yet, we cannot afford to take the initiative. It puts us in too many positions for the opponent to very easily exploit, because they know the terrain, they have the friendly populace, and they have time. I would argue that moving honestly gives the Federation the initiative, because they will be the ones that can begin combat with us when they feel like, and they can avoid it if they wish, while we simply react to the whatever we come a cross as we move.

By hunkering down, we goad them into taking the initiative in such a way that we can capitalize on their mistakes, and we have a chance of crushing them. If we try a mobile Guerilla war, they will simply find us, surround us, and end us.
 
By hunkering down we give up all opportunities to blow up bringes, damage railways, destroy munition depots.
Hunkering will let us deliver less lasting damage.
 
Again, we are not a fleet-footed partisan force operating in friendly terrain. We are a heavy division cut off from supply in hostile territory. We cannot engage in guerrilla operations because we completely lack any of the advantages that would make it possible. We would simply be cut off and destroyed by superior numbers when the Federation corps arrives, and even more readily if we had dispersed our formations. Nor do we have any kind of intelligence on any critical targets that might make that in the least worthwhile.

Meanwhile staying as a force-in-being concentrated near the coast presents a threat the Federation isn't willing to ignore. And the entire purpose of this operation was to divert Federation forces from the front lines in Caucasia. A prolonged resistance ties up Federation units for as long as possible, which is the only way to pull anything like a success out of this otherwise disastrous situation. There's a slim chance of victory by staying intact as long as we can, whereas every other course inevitably leads to surrender or destruction. And even if we do have to surrender after a prolonged fight then we've at least accomplished something of the objectives of the landing.
 
[x] Plan: Double Pincer
-[x] Baumann and Pydan will (as indicated on the map) move west (?) against the Federation Base.
--[x] They have operational freedom, but Pydan is to secure and hold the hills to the east (?) of Nicopol
-[x] Our Brigade is to advance down the central plain
--[x] Vorbeck (commanding Giraud and Müller) is to lead a flanking attack on Herea.
---[x] She is to take the town and hold the road to Sinope.
----[x] At her discretion she can use Giraud's light infantry to flank the forces on the beaches.
-[x] The Seaguard is to slowly advance on the defensive positions infront of Herea and on the beaches.

(Is south at the top of this map?)
This is what I managed to think up. But, I'm interested to read what others come up with. Feedback or changes (feel free to do so yourself) are welcome.

Edit: Numbers:
Left Wing (Enemy 1500)
Vorbeck ~ 2000
Odessa Seaguard - 2200

Center (Enemy 2000-4000)
Habsburg ~ 2000
+ hopefully supportable in a timely manner from the left (Vorbeck) and right (Pydan)

Right Wing (Enemy 1000-3000)
Colonel Bauman's brigade - 2500
Colonel Pydan's brigade - 3200

Edit2: Minor edits to both plan and map for clarification and ease of understanding.

Edit3: :facepalm:
 
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But there isn't any good place to hunker down. There is that ridge sure but it doesn't make for a palce to face four times your own number. The base is a priority if we capture it first we get a better chance at getting some intel to work with, maybe some better targets and maybe a map of the region. Aimlessly hunkering down here in the ass end of nowhere or in Sinope won't give us a good place to put down a corps strength unit let alone more reinforcements. And it will remove the chance of us being able to resupply.

Say we really do sit down here in sinope. we can at best get those three supply depots, that base and that military cantonment. Then we are out of any more supplies beyond whatever High Command can send us. While facing an enemy who outnumbers and outsupplies us.

If we stay on the move we give up the advantage of having a defensive secure position in exchange for being able to get more intel on our surroundings and get supplies, while keeping the enemy distracted without any combat. You are saying the enemy is more manouverable than us but how do you know that? Its a corps strength unit, larger unit sizes being moved are already slower and unless they really were willing to deploy an entire corps of motorized and armored units we will have them at best moving at the same speed we do. Sure they know the terrain better but only until we get us a map, which we can't get if we allow that base time to destroy any and all intel and supplies it has.

Those guys in Herea are not going to run away (in the sense of we having lost an opportunity) but the enemy may very well choose to remove the supplies and destroy intel while we are dealing with Herea.

EDIT: changing my vote. Double Pincer looks good.

[X] Double Pincer
 
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@Spacegnom, sending Baumann alone is dangerous, maybe reorient Muller's tanks to him, as tanks are less useful in the city.

But mainly I don't see the need to strike Herea. We probably have the numbers to do it but I just don't want to get bogged down into city fighting while the troops there are clearly on the defensive.
At most, a probing attack to make them dig in even harder and not contest us outside.
 
Spacegnom said:
[x] Plan: Double Pincer
-[x] Baumann and Pydan will (as indicated on the map) move west (?) against the Federation Base.
--[x] They have operational freedom, but Pydan is to secure and hold the hills to the east (?) of Nicopol
-[x] Our Brigade is to advance down the central plain
--[x] Vorbeck (with Giraud and Müller) is to lead a flanking attack on Herea.
---[x] She is to take the town and hold the road to Sinope.
----[x] At her disgression she can use Giraud's light infantry to flank the forces on the beaches.
-[x] The Seaguard is to slowly advance on the defensive positions infront of Herea and one the beaches.

(Is south at the top of this map?)
This is what I managed to think up. But, I'm interested to read what others come up with. Feedback or changes (feel free to do so yourself) are welcome.
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I think it's a pretty good plan in general but I am still deeply concerned about that tree line at the Federation base, and I'm nervous about only detaching Vorbeck's battalion alone to flank Herea when it could potentially be pincered by forces in Sinope.

Ghazkull said:
But there isn't any good place to hunker down. There is that ridge sure but it doesn't make for a palce to face four times your own number. The base is a priority if we capture it first we get a better chance at getting some intel to work with, maybe some better targets and maybe a map of the region. Aimlessly hunkering down here in the ass end of nowhere or in Sinope won't give us a good place to put down a corps strength unit let alone more reinforcements. And it will remove the chance of us being able to resupply.

Say we really do sit down here in sinope. we can at best get those three supply depots, that base and that military cantonment. Then we are out of any more supplies beyond whatever High Command can send us. While facing an enemy who outnumbers and outsupplies us.

If we stay on the move we give up the advantage of having a defensive secure position in exchange for being able to get more intel on our surroundings and get supplies, while keeping the enemy distracted without any combat. You are saying the enemy is more manouverable than us but how do you know that? Its a corps strength unit, larger unit sizes being moved are already slower and unless they really were willing to deploy an entire corps of motorized and armored units we will have them at best moving at the same speed we do. Sure they know the terrain better but only until we get us a map, which we can't get if we allow that base time to destroy any and all intel and supplies it has.

Those guys in Herea are not going to run away (in the sense of we having lost an opportunity) but the enemy may very well choose to remove the supplies and destroy intel while we are dealing with Herea.

EDIT: changing my vote. Double Pincer looks good.

[X] Double Pincer
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I think you may have misunderstood my vote. I do want us to strike the Federation base, but I also want to take the hill at Herea. At this stage I don't think I'm going to convince you, but I still think attempting a Guerilla campaign is foolishness. We do not have mobility. The Federation does. They are the ones with access to the strategic infrastructure of the area. It doesn't matter if a corps is slower if they have roads and railways to move when we don't. They are the ones that get to choose when and where they want to fight. We can force a fight now on our terms, or fight on theirs. A map alone will not save you from terrain unfamiliarity. I can have a map of the Caucus mountains and still be maddeningly confused of how to move about, because I didn't grow up and live there. These people grew up and lived in Talaris. None of us have. How does hunkering up in Sinope make us have less supplies? We have Hall's resupply point, and moving around would burn resources far faster than staying put would, especially fuel.
 
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FortTell said:
@Spacegnom, sending Baumann alone is dangerous, maybe reorient Muller's tanks to him, as tanks are less useful in the city.

But mainly I don't see the need to strike Herea. We probably have the numbers to do it but I just don't want to get bogged down into city fighting while the troops there are clearly on the defensive.
At most, a probing attack to make them dig in even harder and not contest us outside.
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Alone as in unsupported or as in letting him make decisions on his own? If it is the former, I don't see how sending more tanks will help. But, maybe some.other battalion?
If it is the later, I don't see how sending someone subordinate to him will achieve much.

The flanking attack on Herea with tanks was proposed in the update. So, I think Müller's tanks should have at least some effect there.
Sturmi said:
I think it's a pretty good plan in general but I am still deeply concerned about that tree line at the Federation base, and I'm nervous about only detaching Vorbeck's battalion alone to flank Herea when it could potentially be pincered by forces in Sinope.
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1) Pydan should have enough troops to scout those woods with some lighter elements.
2) The flanking attack is lead by Vorbeck. But she would command Giraud's and Müller's forces as well.
 
Ghazkull said:
Sure they know the terrain better but only until we get us a map, which we can't get if we allow that base time to destroy any and all intel and supplies it has.
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Just a note, do you have an IC map of whole front and last known positions of every major unit according to intel. I just haven't posted it since it hasn't become relevant yet. There will be a branching path ahead in a few updates time where you'll be given strategic options and new info.

Edit: Though the locals definitely know the actual terrain better of course.
Emdeman threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Eastern conflict Total: 51
51 51
Emdeman threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Western conflict Total: 74
74 74
 
@Sturmi i don't think i can persuade you either so lets agree to disagree ^^

Anyway as to your questions as far as i see it Halls Resupply point won't reliably or constantly dropp supplies. Flying in Supplies to support division strength units is incredibly expensive and hard to organize and apart from the Berlin Air Bridge i can't think of any that ever worked (although if you know of any occasions were an air bridge worked please enlighten me).

That being said, by moving about we can raid other supply depots stretched across the countryside and if we snatch up some intel we might even be able to capture something more major. Yes moving about will use up fuel and spare parts quicker but gives us the chance to capture more depots and constantly cause damage to the enemy (no matter how miniscule) and maybe affect the ongoing front in a more proactive way.

Whereas if we hunker down in Sinope for example, we would give up all chance of doing something beyond being a running sore. es we are there but we are not exactly a threat anymore. Once encircled by the Corps Strength Unit we can't disentangle from combat as easy and we are utterly reliant on what air drops bring in as opposed to what we can steal off the enemy. Sure we will eventually have to fight the Corps Strength Unit and by moving about the chances are higher that we will have to do it on their terms but simultaneously the chances for a far better position and a more secure/independent Supply Situation also go up.

Anyway i do not disagree with you completely, an outright Guerilla Campaign is an impossibility but i just dislike this place and would look for other and potentially better opportunities than sitting about in a lacklustre defensive position.

Especially Sinope feels like a death trap to me if we assume that the Federation Navy willc ontinue to reinforce the region and regain naval superiority.
 
Ghazkull said:
@Sturmi i don't think i can persuade you either so lets agree to disagree ^^

Anyway as to your questions as far as i see it Halls Resupply point won't reliably or constantly dropp supplies. Flying in Supplies to support division strength units is incredibly expensive and hard to organize and apart from the Berlin Air Bridge i can't think of any that ever worked (although if you know of any occasions were an air bridge worked please enlighten me).

That being said, by moving about we can raid other supply depots stretched across the countryside and if we snatch up some intel we might even be able to capture something more major. Yes moving about will use up fuel and spare parts quicker but gives us the chance to capture more depots and constantly cause damage to the enemy (no matter how miniscule) and maybe affect the ongoing front in a more proactive way.

Whereas if we hunker down in Sinope for example, we would give up all chance of doing something beyond being a running sore. es we are there but we are not exactly a threat anymore. Once encircled by the Corps Strength Unit we can't disentangle from combat as easy and we are utterly reliant on what air drops bring in as opposed to what we can steal off the enemy. Sure we will eventually have to fight the Corps Strength Unit and by moving about the chances are higher that we will have to do it on their terms but simultaneously the chances for a far better position and a more secure/independent Supply Situation also go up.

Anyway i do not disagree with you completely, an outright Guerilla Campaign is an impossibility but i just dislike this place and would look for other and potentially better opportunities than sitting about in a lacklustre defensive position.

Especially Sinope feels like a death trap to me if we assume that the Federation Navy willc ontinue to reinforce the region and regain naval superiority.
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Aircraft don't exist yet in this universe, but I think you're underestimating the attrition rate of moving in hostile territory.

I also find it highly unlikely that the Federation, even with naval superiority will be willing to bombard one of its own cities with naval artillery, and if they are Cavalier has already pointed out what a propoganda coup that would be.

As for being trapped in Sinope, isn't tying down a full corps at somewhere far away from the front lines in and of itself a great accomplishment? This is something we know that we can do, whereas raiding the country side for strategic targets come with the literally constant and serious risk of comprehensive defeat, rendering us incapable of even that.

I find it highly unlikely that we will find a strategic target worth the value of not being able to hold down this corps. Either way we'll find out if/when we crack open this Federation base. Thanks for keeping this pretty civil by the way.
 
Sturmi said:
isn't tying down a full corps at somewhere far away from the front lines in and of itself a great accomplishment?
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It is. But I just want to do it in another place, at another time. The corps is still being gathered, and we need these last few days to hammer at the enemy while we have local superiority. Besides, a non-coastal city will tie down more land forces (instead of naval, which the Feds will still keep close by either way to prevent resupply/evacuation).

In addition, even if the fleet will probably refrain from bombarding Sinope, they will have no problem shelling all the hills and roads around the city, leaving us with only the farther from the sea side of the ridge as a safe-ish artillery position. We will be stuck at lower elevation and with little capability for maneuver.

This is why I think we should turtle somewhere else, at a later date.
 
The main advantage of a coastal city is, aside from the hope of relief or evacuation if the Imperial Navy can pull off another upset, is that you don't have to worry about being attacked from the coast. That means fewer fronts the enemy can push on to make the most of superiority of numbers. Sinope, in so far as choosing it as a place to stand, also has the advantage that it looks like it has a relatively protected harbor. If you mine or otherwise close down the harbor the Federation Navy might not be able to get close enough to shell accurately. The big guns generally only carry somewhere around 80-90 shells per tube, and they're the only ones that can hit from 20km away. Any cruiser scale guns of 8" or 6" size would need to be within 10km or less to be truly effective, leaving aside of course that heavy artillery bombardment of cities is generally counterproductive for the attacker.

Making a stand at an inland city, on the other hand, means being exposed to attack from all directions which lets the enemy use its numerical superiority more effectively and makes establishing any kind of reserve to respond to breakthroughs more difficult.

Still, I definitely agree we strongly need more information about the overall strategic picture and the geography of Talaris.
 
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Cavalier said:
[inland city] lets the enemy use its numerical superiority more effectively and makes establishing any kind of reserve to respond to breakthroughs more difficult
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You raise a good point.
On the other hand, what if the enemy just surrounds us, digs in and leaves a small force to starve us out? Our breakthrough attempts will be foiled with naval bombardment, as we cannot counterfire while moving. And we will tie down less manpower compared to an inland city.
 
Sturmi said:
Aircraft don't exist yet in this universe, but I think you're underestimating the attrition rate of moving in hostile territory.

I also find it highly unlikely that the Federation, even with naval superiority will be willing to bombard one of its own cities with naval artillery, and if they are Cavalier has already pointed out what a propoganda coup that would be.

As for being trapped in Sinope, isn't tying down a full corps at somewhere far away from the front lines in and of itself a great accomplishment? This is something we know that we can do, whereas raiding the country side for strategic targets come with the literally constant and serious risk of comprehensive defeat, rendering us incapable of even that.

I find it highly unlikely that we will find a strategic target worth the value of not being able to hold down this corps. Either way we'll find out if/when we crack open this Federation base. Thanks for keeping this pretty civil by the way.
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Wait. There is no airforces? Then how the hell did we get a supply drop deep in enemy territory? Oo
 
I personally suspect something like the Japanese method of attempting to resupply their forces at Guadalcanal, by having destroyers dragging supplies in vaguely floating containers and cutting them loose near the coast.
 
FortTell said:
You raise a good point.
On the other hand, what if the enemy just surrounds us, digs in and leaves a small force to starve us out? Our breakthrough attempts will be foiled with naval bombardment, as we cannot counterfire while moving. And we will tie down less manpower compared to an inland city.
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That assumes the geography allows them to station sufficient naval forces close enough offshore to accurately hit the front lines, that the coordination between their naval and ground arms is sufficient to call in fire directly on top of their own positions to stifle an attack, and that the Imperial Navy is incapable of threatening them while they steam very slowly off the coast and shoot off their heavy caliber ammunition. And even then, the Federation would still need to supply a sufficiently large force to cover all possible axis of attack for a breakthrough because otherwise their siege unit would be overwhelmed by a superior local concentration of troops. And of course we're still tying up a squadron of battleships and escort forces that could otherwise be doing something else, such as support an amphibious operation by the Federation or covering convoys against Imperial surface raiders.

And of course if we go inland the Federation can still concentrate artillery as part of a siege. Either way if they're willing to shell their own cities under heavy bombardment we'll be forced to surrender sooner or later but we can tie up superior forces and win a huge propaganda coup; though the image of the Federation Navy shelling a Talaris city is probably much more dramatic than the army's units, who are probably from Talaris, doing so.
 
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