Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]

This might not be entirely correct since the author of this fanfic said a full entity with authority can easily crush the Abidan it's possible that a monarch Taylor temporarily fusing with Queen Administrator/Hera would be as powerful as a judge since Queen Administrator/Hera was one of the highest ranked shards (even though she is currently missing vital hardware).

Bonus question: If Queen Administrator is Hera would that mean High Priest would be called Zeus?

Ehhhh not so much crush as start getting into contending with them on the high end in particular and Full entities would also mean the full scope of Uncountable shard Bullshit used in tandem and not just what got used by Scion or individual Parahumans

But either way at Judge would probably have to get involved
 
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Ehhhh not so much crush as start getting into contending with them on the high end in particular and Full entities would also mean the full scope of Uncountable shard Bullshit used in tandem and not just what got used by Scion or individual Parahumans

The author of this fanfic disagrees as shown below by this quote

If a full Entity ever managed to develop authority, it would roll over the entire Abidan without even noticing.
 
Oh ya I misunderstood the context of a Full entity with their usual exhaustive approach to things using Authority would indeed just Steamroll them because then that authority gets applied in Conjunction with their utter mastery of multiversal Physics with the Associated Computation capability implied by their everything

Especially since their Modus Operandi includes exhaustive exploration of Specifics and an unending well of Bullshit including stuff for dealing with peer opponents

Once the Abidan lose the Authority and semi out of Context advantage in that fight they are soooooo Very Screwed
 
Ahahaha; I love how Taylor's seen as ranking up there with Eithan.

Note that as talented as the others are, both Eithan and Taylor are teachers to them, particularly for Taylor in life lessons (which often help the Sacred Arts).
Taylor and Eithan are filling the role as Team Leaders/Mentors and people who pull bullshit out of no where. Taylor teaching life lessons and being supportive has done everyone a lot of good.

Note Taylor's actively teaching Dross here, too, which is nice to see.
She even got Hera to share physics with Dross.

And so it is; Taylor has made her second chance what she wants of it.
Taylor's revelations, if I recall:
Underlord: "I practice the Sacred Arts because I wouldn't know what to do with myself, otherwise."
Overlord: "I get my hands dirty so that others can keep theirs clean."
Archlord: "This time, I'll do better.' (Keep relationships good)

Mercy, if I recall, had revelations
Underlord: "I walk my Path so that my mother will be proud of me"
Overlord: I care
Archlord: "I won't always let other people fight my battles for me. I'll do my part."

Note that both Taylor and Mercy have revelations about other people, not just themselves.
Taylor and Mercy have really changed each other and mostly for the better.

I note that no Monarch on Cradle has unlimited power; their power ends at the power of another Monarch or set thereof.

No Monarch can beat the Abidan, either.

So... QA/Khepri get the Crown, and Taylor's working out the boundaries the Crown icon allows. It definitely allows ruling from the shadows or staging a soft coup... but Taylor really, really values her sisterly relationship with Mercy.
Taylor with the Crown Icon was deciding who she wanted to be and shaped her understanding of the Crown Icon to be more limited but to also fit her better. Hera's Authority connected to the Crown could equal a Judge given how old and aligned with the concept she is but Taylor's is both more limited and inspired by Hera's.

Poor Top Hat and crew. Note the relevance to the Crown icon, too, in that when Top Hat went into a criminal-front restaurant for cover, Taylor simply made a phone call and he was kicked out.

That's power, too.
Taylor is very aware of the power of minions, organizations and connections.

Three scales on Hera manifesting Scholar as her second icon!
Honestly it would git both Hera and Taylor very well given their mutual discover everything goal and the fact that Taylor is learning as much as she can through the multiple clones, stuff like music, scripts, history, ect ect, and she's been doing it for knowledge's sake.

More of Taylor caring deeply about her personal relationships.

More importantly, that means Taylor's definitely going to Ascend eventually; she and Hera will eventually need to in order to keep discovering the secrets of the universe.
Taylor previously was considering Ascending for Mercy and Charity if they both came but here she'd be more okay with ascending for herself and Hera.

Yeah; there's the unwavering determination that resonates with the Crown icon.
The will to make reality bend to her will.

An important point; QA/Hera is experiencing a new emotion: she cares for Taylor.
Hera is learning to care beyond just Data which is great.

They're both world-weary in some ways, they're both reaching out and teaching.
They're both burnt out recovering world savers that are trying to be better.

So, post-Malice's sacrifice, the Akura lost many outlying settlements and green land, a ton of money/treasure, and so on.

They gained a new Herald, three Overlord sages became Archlord sages, an Archlord, an Archlord Sage (Eithan), most of Dark Moon's archlord treasure, a major new Sage technique for city defense/mass battles, the start of Spider Judge understanding, much of the Sun King's surviving ancient loot... and a prototype Penance with blowback issues.

They don't have a Monarch... but they can kill one.
Lots of power ups for the Akura faction.

Another three scales on Taylor's fourth icon being something like Big Sister or Teacher/Professor/Mentor. She's been teaching Mercy, Meira, Grace, Yerin, Lindon, Dross, even Eithan in ways.
Probably would align with her understanding of the Scholarship Icon. Knowledge should be gained and shared.

Nope. The wormverse physics are gonzo bizarre compared to the weave's multiverse, and it's been mentioned how the judges would be excited that there's another localized multiverse out there separate from theirs. The weave just kind of peters out into formless chaos, and the judges have hoped/wished that the weave isn't everything there is to existence, and have theorized that out there in the infinite chaos there might be other weaves.
It's another multiverse they'd find really neat.

I think we should keep in mind that the Abidan's definition of humanity is a lot more expansive than our own. It's better to say that to gain more than a certain level of creativity, one requires a soul. There is a very definite question of chicken and egg here, because objects can clearly gain souls - dross went from a glorified recorder to having a full personality and remnants/spirits also appear spontaneously. Hiveminds are also not unheard of, given Last Horizon basically has the Borg who have their own level of OPness.

Obviously YMMV, but I don't see Taylor as very strange at all. Unusual, but all Waybound are unusual.
Humanity is a very wide thing for the Abidan.

This might not be entirely correct since the author of this fanfic said a full entity with authority can easily crush the Abidan it's possible that a monarch Taylor temporarily fusing with Queen Administrator/Hera would be as powerful as a judge since Queen Administrator/Hera was one of the highest ranked shards (even though she is currently missing vital hardware).

Bonus question: If Queen Administrator is Hera would that mean High Priest would be called Zeus?
Hera herself has authority comparable to a Judge within her niche.

The author of this fanfic disagrees as shown below by this quote
A Full Entity with Authority would stomp but their existence kinda makes gaining Authority nearly impossible.

Oh ya I misunderstood the context of a Full entity with their usual exhaustive approach to things using Authority would indeed just Steamroll them because then that authority gets applied in Conjunction with their utter mastery of multiversal Physics with the Associated Computation capability implied by their everything

Especially since their Modus Operandi includes exhaustive exploration of Specifics and an unending well of Bullshit including stuff for dealing with peer opponents

Once the Abidan lose the Authority and semi out of Context advantage in that fight they are soooooo Very Screwed
Honestly I can see the Abidan learning about the Entities and deciding they need to go before they learn Authority.
 
Taylor is very aware of the power of minions, organizations and connections

Oh, yes, as Eithan noticed when Taylor did her new-Sage 'new era for the Akura clan' party... and then both invited every minor sect with at least two Lords, and made sure they were involved and not bullied/trod upon by the main family.

Plus the Dreadgod shelters she ordered getting a workout now.

Taylor previously was considering Ascending for Mercy and Charity if they both came but here she'd be more okay with ascending for herself and Hera.

Eh, I'm pretty sure Taylor's on the 'Me, Charity, Mercy, AND Hera or none of us' train.
 
Oh, yes, as Eithan noticed when Taylor did her new-Sage 'new era for the Akura clan' party... and then both invited every minor sect with at least two Lords, and made sure they were involved and not bullied/trod upon by the main family.

Plus the Dreadgod shelters she ordered getting a workout now.
Taylor inviting those people and making sure they're treated decently likely got her a lot of respect. The Dreadgod Shelters got her even more due to how well they've been paying off.

Eh, I'm pretty sure Taylor's on the 'Me, Charity, Mercy, AND Hera or none of us' train.
Oh yeah 100%, they're all ascending or none of them ascending. But now she's more comfortable with the idea of Ascending in of itself due to it helping her learn more cool stuff. Taylor can do stuff for friends and family but it's good that she has something for herself.
 
Convincing Charity to ascend is going to be the biggest hurdle, I think. She's doesn't want to leave Cradle and leave humans to fend for itself without any monarchs to protect them in canon.
 
honestly, *one* monarch's worth of hunger madra doesn't seem like it'd do all that much right?

their handling a dread-god with half a dozen monarchs powering it up, and without any monarchs themselves right?
(albeit only barely, and with help from a monarch-level herald...but still, the dread-gods being 1/6th as strong (and smart, because their IQ is powered by hunger apparently?) seems likely to bring them to something they can handle).
 
Oh yeah 100% that's the biggest issue. Taylor is going to need to find a way to prop up the Akura holdings with Charity, Taylor and Mercy leaving.
Well IIRC in canon before Lindon ascended he got soul oaths out of the 8ME that they would stop being assholes and conquerors and respect the sovereign territory of the other factions. I see no reason that Taylor couldn't do something similar, it would probably buy the Akura enough time to raise up another sage/herald.

Not to mention the possibility of leaving them equipment, the same way that Ozmanthus left his descendants weapons that would allow sages/heralds to stand against monarchs although they'd mostly been depleted by Tiberian's time.

It should be very doable for Taylor to ensure that the clan is relatively secure for at least the immediate future, even after she ascends.
 
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Well IIRC in canon before Lindon ascended he got soul oaths out of the 8ME that they would stop being assholes and conquerors and respect the sovereign territory of the other factions. I see no reason that Taylor couldn't do something similar, it would probably buy the Akura enough time to raise up another sage/herald.

Not to mention the possibility of leaving them equipment, the same way that Ozmanthus left his descendants weapons that would allow sages/heralds to stand against monarchs although they'd mostly been depleted by Tiberian's time.
actually, how about something of a combination between what the 8ME and taylors new special?

IE: make it so that the reigning power gets monarch-level power (or at least a boost that lets them compete), but only with the voluntary consent of the *entire* populace (or much of it anyway)? preferably with measures to make sure people can't (easily) tell whether someone's "voted no-confidence".

Alternatively, make something that boost someone, but only if their a sage and have been for a long enough time, since those kinda get "locked in"; They won't be able to ascend to Monarch.
 
but only with the voluntary consent of the *entire* populace (or much of it anyway)? preferably with measures to make sure people can't (easily) tell whether someone's "voted no-confidence".
That sounds easily corruptible, just have the populace convinced of some guy, and than he can wipe out most of it before said population can change their mind.
since those kinda get "locked in"; They won't be able to ascend to Monarch.
It is harder, not impossible.
 
That sounds easily corruptible, just have the populace convinced of some guy, and than he can wipe out most of it before said population can change their mind.

It is harder, not impossible.
well yeah; (edit: although the description of the winter sage's situation back however-many-updates suggests that it eventually becomes so close to impossible that its practically academic.

but its a similar problem to real life, how do you work against somebody gaining too much power? checks and balances.....just because you can't implement something thats utterly perfect doesn't mean you should just throw your hands up.

besides, you probably wouldn't *want* to make a system *TOO* perfectly stable--because your capacity to imagine the future cultural/other norms is limited and people might want to eventually escape what you created. IE: assuming sufficient stability/corruption-resistance, eventually the creator of it is the tyrant retroactively from the past.

even besides all of that, convincing Charity to ascend is probably tied to convincing her that "enough" has been done to protect people without their constant input.
 
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well yeah; (edit: although the description of the winter sage's situation back however-many-updates suggests that it eventually becomes so close to impossible that its practically academic.

but its a similar problem to real life, how do you work against somebody gaining too much power? checks and balances.....just because you can't implement something thats utterly perfect doesn't mean you should just throw your hands up.

besides, you probably wouldn't *want* to make a system *TOO* perfectly stable--because your capacity to imagine the future cultural/other norms is limited and people might want to eventually escape what you created. IE: assuming sufficient stability/corruption-resistance, eventually the creator of it is the tyrant retroactively from the past.

even besides all of that, convincing Charity to ascend is probably tied to convincing her that "enough" has been done to protect people without their constant input.
Another possible solution is to have Queen Administrator/Hera combine with High Priest and use authority empowered endbringers as peacekeepers
 
Because the Endbringers are so controllable and not at all independent. /s

High Priest might've made them and given them original directives, but clearly there's no ongoing link/sustained control.

Which arguably is an advantage, they can just operate on their own, but also, you'll probably very quickly get "paperclip maximizer" type problems. Or, as the Simurgh shows, it'll develop and start working towards its own goal.

That's also not getting into taking over the network probably being a BAD thing, involving at least yet another third apocalypse on Bet, Aleph et al. , as they are forced to deal with dissenting elements going "Fucking make me" at QA and starting a fight, probably involving another round of Titans or similar. And that's without taking the likely side effects on both QA and Taylor's Origin and such.

In short whatever solution will PROBABLY involve Sacred Arts, it's far less potentially messy.
 
Because the Endbringers are so controllable and not at all independent. /s

High Priest might've made them and given them original directives, but clearly there's no ongoing link/sustained control.

Which arguably is an advantage, they can just operate on their own, but also, you'll probably very quickly get "paperclip maximizer" type problems. Or, as the Simurgh shows, it'll develop and start working towards its own goal.

That's also not getting into taking over the network probably being a BAD thing, involving at least yet another third apocalypse on Bet, Aleph et al. , as they are forced to deal with dissenting elements going "Fucking make me" at QA and starting a fight, probably involving another round of Titans or similar. And that's without taking the likely side effects on both QA and Taylor's Origin and such.

In short whatever solution will PROBABLY involve Sacred Arts, it's far less potentially messy.
The Endbringers acted as Eidelon's "worthy oppenent" until he died and after he died, they defaulted to their original directive from Eden of preserving the cycle so they seem to be loyal to their directive.
As for the origin issue Queen Administrator/Hera is already made up of smaller shards so this wouldn't be much of a change for her other than getting the memories of High Priest and his hardware and software while removing more of her restrictions.
 
The Endbringers acted as Eidelon's "worthy oppenent" until he died and after he died, they defaulted to their original directive from Eden of preserving the cycle so they seem to be loyal to their directive.
This isn't true.

First, Eidolon's High Priest is directly called the Endbringer's creator by the Simurgh's PoV. Though Eden's vision features Endbringer-like constructs, they are different in both form and function (being there to separate the continents and breed antagonism by enforcing that separation). We can extrapolate that the building blocks were already there and High Priest simply put them together, but the Endbringers, as they exist during Worm, explicitly were not made by Eden.

Second, the preservation of the cycle is explicitly the Simurgh's self-appointed task, not a group thing. We don't know what the others want because they don't live long enough for that to matter in the end.


Third, until Scion informed him, Eidolon was unaware of any connection. Despite the fact he was going at 100% and essentially flipping through brokenly OP powers like it's one of those "flip to animate" books, meaning there had to be some OP thinker powers among those, too. Meaning that even as he was grasping his powers to nearly their deepest extent, he was unable to make the connection until it was pointed out to him.

The following is somewhat speculative, but the description of Glaistig Uaine about why she calls him High Priest, how his power doesn't order or limit (as Queen would) but instead guides through less direct, almost religious methods imply that there simply is no connection with the Endbringers once they're made. They follow what High Priest says like zealots follow religious figures, and you can just look at history to see what sort of disasters that brings to, or in the context of Worm, the destructive fervor the Endbringers had (destroying society and ravaging the planet in a handful of decades as opposed to the centuries the cycle is expected to last) even when that's really not something Eidolon wanted.

This might even be a basic design feature that Eden was going to make use of with her "not-Endbringers", by making creating iron-clad plausible deniability from even the most advanced tinker-tech detection systems, only being able tobe sussed out by someone taking a real big picture look.


In short, and tying this back to this story, getting Endbringers involved to somehow police ascension is kind of foolish, in that at some point they will become the problem, whether by dogma entrenching itself, self-determination and deciding to do their own thing, and so on.

It'd be equivalent to just asking some of the already powerful people of this world to do it, it'll work, for a time, but there's really no guarantee that actually fixes anything permanently.

IMO, more likely is something like what's happening right now with Penance: information and weapons stashed away for just-in-case scenarios.
 
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This isn't true.

First, Eidolon's High Priest is directly called the Endbringer's creator by the Simurgh's PoV. Though Eden's vision features Endbringer-like constructs, they are different in both form and function (being there to separate the continents and breed antagonism by enforcing that separation). We can extrapolate that the building blocks were already there and High Priest simply put them together, but the Endbringers, as they exist during Worm, explicitly were not made by Eden.
where is this bit from? I haven't heard anything about this.
 
This isn't true.

First, Eidolon's High Priest is directly called the Endbringer's creator by the Simurgh's PoV. Though Eden's vision features Endbringer-like constructs, they are different in both form and function (being there to separate the continents and breed antagonism by enforcing that separation). We can extrapolate that the building blocks were already there and High Priest simply put them together, but the Endbringers, as they exist during Worm, explicitly were not made by Eden.

Second, the preservation of the cycle is explicitly the Simurgh's self-appointed task, not a group thing. We don't know what the others want because they don't live long enough for that to matter in the end.


Third, until Scion informed him, Eidolon was unaware of any connection. Despite the fact he was going at 100% and essentially flipping through brokenly OP powers like it's one of those "flip to animate" books, meaning there had to be some OP thinker powers among those, too. Meaning that even as he was grasping his powers to nearly their deepest extent, he was unable to make the connection until it was pointed out to him.

The following is somewhat speculative, but the description of Glaistig Uaine about why she calls him High Priest, how his power doesn't order or limit (as Queen would) but instead guides through less direct, almost religious methods imply that there simply is no connection with the Endbringers once they're made. They follow what High Priest says like zealots follow religious figures, and you can just look at history to see what sort of disasters that brings to, or in the context of Worm, the destructive fervor the Endbringers had (destroying society and ravaging the planet in a handful of decades as opposed to the centuries the cycle is expected to last) even when that's really not something Eidolon wanted.

This might even be a basic design feature that Eden was going to make use of with her "not-Endbringers", by making creating iron-clad plausible deniability from even the most advanced tinker-tech detection systems, only being able tobe sussed out by someone taking a real big picture look.


In short, and tying this back to this story, getting Endbringers involved to somehow police ascension is kind of foolish, in that at some point they will become the problem, whether by dogma entrenching itself, self-determination and deciding to do their own thing, and so on.

It'd be equivalent to just asking some of the already powerful people of this world to do it, it'll work, for a time, but there's really no guarantee that actually fixes anything permanently.

IMO, more likely is something like what's happening right now with Penance: information and weapons stashed away for just-in-case scenarios.
I thought their where 20 shards meant to be superweapons by Eden and High Priest (also the exact relationship between High Priest and Eden is quite close since the author of Worm said Eden only fully died after Eidolon got his powers) just adapted some of them for his own use of giving Eidolon "worthy opponents" (I agree Eidolon did not want this High Priest misinterpreted what he really wanted). But even if your right they still only started doing their own thing after Eidolon died.
 
As for the origin issue Queen Administrator/Hera is already made up of smaller shards so this wouldn't be much of a change for her other than getting the memories of High Priest and his hardware and software while removing more of her restrictions.

I've seen this comment a couple of times, but where is the idea that QA is made up of smaller shards coming from? It was her role to administer smaller shards (aka all of them), but I don't recall anything about her being made of smaller shards.
 
I've seen this comment a couple of times, but where is the idea that QA is made up of smaller shards coming from? It was her role to administer smaller shards (aka all of them), but I don't recall anything about her being made of smaller shards.
All shards except are made up of smaller shards an example of this is all the Shards got parts of the balance shard (for connecting better with humans) and Imp's shard (to hide information on the cycle from the hosts) a canon example of a shard that definitely part of another shard was Dinah shard was originally part of Scion's path to victory. In general, Entities combine shards with similar function together to increase efficiency if some of the parts of the shard diverge to much than they bud (splitting part of themselves into a new shard) to keep specialization (probably to stop a shard rebellion).
TLDR Shards are like Lego's you can mix and match them to create the construct you like by combining multiple different things that work together
(this is only somewhat a joke)
 
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I've seen this comment a couple of times, but where is the idea that QA is made up of smaller shards coming from? It was her role to administer smaller shards (aka all of them), but I don't recall anything about her being made of smaller shards.
This is shard biology, this is how all shards work, it is shards all the way down.

I even posted two WoG talking about it in this thread.
 
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