Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]

They aren't speciesist but the Shards are close enough to Fiends to make Eithan think they're fiends. With time they'd likely be okay with things though it's just that being introduced to it through a cross Iteration traveler who's going to become a Reaper isn't a good look.
Eithan is operating off of a third person description from Lindon and rescinds his diagnosis after about 4 seconds of direct conversation. I see the other judges being more skeptical/hostile, but I don't see them concluding "Die Fiend!" after even a mildly intrusive scan.

Like VagueZ said, the hardline traditionalists might object, but I see enough of the moderates in the council like Telariel and Durandiel being interested in further investigation.
 
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The Hound has to die/retire before any real change can happen to the Abidan. Taylor's association with Eithan alone would have him damn Hera's species and convince enough of the Judges to side with him.
 
I'm kind of worried that the Fisher will try to steal Taylor and Hera once they ascend, given that QA is one of a kind.
She isn't one of a kind, there are countless iterations of her, since the entities clone themselves to breed.

That kind of one of the scary things about entities, they reproduce.

Practically speaking, nothing stops current Hera from having children if she felt like it, budding is part of the things allowed by the cycle.
Not their entire thing, but it is presumably one of the perks. That said, a lot don't bother because iteration power systems are all inferior to Authority/Will (Icons and later concepts/mantels). A base iteration power system is important for elevating a person's existence to the level of being able to access and wield Authority and Will, but once you have them, then it's not so important (though not irrelevant as Sariel got cut off from the Way in an ambush and used her skill/power with the Sacred Arts to kick the enemies' ass). This is one of the reasons Cradle is so important to the Abidan because it's power system is excellent at developing those that can access the Way and learn to use Authority.
Not really, even Suriel still occasionally use her home system power, she did on screen at least once.

And we have heard of multiple threats or people using cross system stuff to grow stronger, like the guy Lindon beaten with the dragon wings.

Cross system stuff seems incredibly beneficial, the more advanced way stuff builds on it, it isn't separate from that.
 
She isn't one of a kind, there are countless iterations of her, since the entities clone themselves to breed.

For one, finding their home iteration in the first place is no guarantee. For another, QA is absolutely unique as a shard that started as one who did the presumably rather unique Khepri twist, and over the course of the story has been given individuality, authority, secondhand madra, and a full-on superbond complete with Abidan judge prerequisite understanding with her current (and if they both have their way, forever) host.
 
Not really, even Suriel still occasionally use her home system power, she did on screen at least once.

And we have heard of multiple threats or people using cross system stuff to grow stronger, like the guy Lindon beaten with the dragon wings.

Cross system stuff seems incredibly beneficial, the more advanced way stuff builds on it, it isn't separate from that.
Well, ish. The Silverlords certainly do that, but it's also kinda implied that by doing so they're damaging the stability of the local Iteration by doing it, as I recall? In general, Bad Shit happens when you let Iterations mix like that, so.

(Also, on a thematic/aesthetic/genre level, the Way rewards specialization much more than being a generalist. Sure, if you can be a master of many fields, then that makes you the elite of the elite, the people like Ozriel on the large scale and the Monarchs on a smaller scale. But if you can't, or just aren't there yet, you're much better off focusing on the conceptual heart and core of your Path (or other-Iteration equivalent), than trying to make up the difference by mixing and matching. The Way rewards enlightenment, and affinity to archetypes/Icons; unless your cross-system mashup gives you better understanding of some core concept at its heart, an organized and themed collection of powers that just happen to be from different systems, you're going to be better off focusing on one skill until you can use it to do everything else.)
Eithan embracing the Icon of Death and letting Taylor know about it was him stopping running away from who he is. It'll hopefully make the eventual reveal a lot less painful for him.
You know, now that I think about it, there was a particularly touching moment where Lindon gets to speak directly with Ozmanthus thanks to Labyrinth-based time shenanigans... and, after interacting with him a bit, says something along the lines of "No offense, but I like the modern you better."

And Ozmanthus, proud and unbowed as he is, still smiles at that, because he wanted to be different even back then.
 
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Nothing like these things exists within the Will-verse as it stands outside of this fic. It's effectively an axiom of the setting that the human shape is the shape you use to think—a kind of form-follows-function assumption. Dragons, talking lions, sure, but human shape best, even if it's someone who looks like the Creature From the Black Lagoon or someone who's a ten-foot-tall bald golden goddess. "Basically a thinking machine" isn't entirely without precedent, but only in a very weird way: all Abidan we see and at least some of the Vroshir use what are called "Presences". A Presence is like a magical subordinate AI mind mostly-permanently stuck into the user's brain that can do a lot of computer modeling, research, and general body-management stuff. The Abidan use them because even for the perfected superhumans that staff their upper echelons, it's too much power for one single mind to manage.

So... I may be unfamiliar with most Worm cosmology, as I've mentioned, but by my understanding these would be kind of an outside-context problem. What do you mean they do this much thinking while this non-anthropomorphic? This latest update basically confirms that they're not going to be seen as "Danger - Kill on Sight" thing for the Abidan; within this fic, they clearly can be harmonized with the Way and are not fiends. That said, it's quite likely that this is a severe context changer, something that will change the balance of power within the Abidan and between the Abidan and their rivals like the Vroshir.

By where this fic is and how things are presented, I think the Abidan would love to put these in and with their Judges. Why not join the Presence and make a triune mind? Let's all harmonize our power and keep shepherding reality and the multiverse within the Way. The Abidan are not wholly good, but they haven't existed for the insane lengths of time that they have without being reasonably practical. They have a vast array of otherworldly powers and talent with using them, and this is something else that can join up.

I could also imagine that the more 'traditional' Abidan would reject this if they thought they could manage it, though. It's up to the writer and the narrative how they'll interact. There's room for many possibilities, and I don't feel like the story so far is pushing one of them clearly.

Actually, thinking about it (lol) the 'human shape is the thinking shape' actually still applies to the Shards/Entities. After all, why are they even linking with host species to begin with? Thinking. The entities/shards have LOTS of processing power, but otherwise they're very dumb and severely lacking in creative thinking. Even with Hera, Taylor works to make her an avatar (aka giving her a human shape) to aid in her understanding.
 
Actually, thinking about it (lol) the 'human shape is the thinking shape' actually still applies to the Shards/Entities. After all, why are they even linking with host species to begin with? Thinking. The entities/shards have LOTS of processing power, but otherwise they're very dumb and severely lacking in creative thinking. Even with Hera, Taylor works to make her an avatar (aka giving her a human shape) to aid in her understanding.
They lack creativity, but human creativity alone isn't enough for them, it is too limited, otherwise they would just clone the same species forever instead of finding new ones, different alien minds provide different data.
 
Actually, thinking about it (lol) the 'human shape is the thinking shape' actually still applies to the Shards/Entities. After all, why are they even linking with host species to begin with? Thinking. The entities/shards have LOTS of processing power, but otherwise they're very dumb and severely lacking in creative thinking. Even with Hera, Taylor works to make her an avatar (aka giving her a human shape) to aid in her understanding.
Hera/Queen Administrator like all shards has her own avatar it's called a shard titan (I don't think she can currently manifest it onto Cradle without sacrificing Taylor). Also, in Worm canon the author stated that if the cycle had succeeded the main thing the entities would have learned are dreams (which means the main thing that makes humans unique in the Worm is dreams which has interesting implications in this crossover).
 
By where this fic is and how things are presented, I think the Abidan would love to put these in and with their Judges. Why not join the Presence and make a triune mind?
Thing is - why the hell would most shards want to do it? Presences are purpose crafted and they are basically subconsciousness of an Abidan level guys allowing them a workaround to "must think like a human" problem. They are tools. Shards, for all of their problems, are sapients with their own desires and absolutely inhuman baseline mentality. Many of them are dozens to hundreds of times older than Judges. Trying to turn them into Presence analogues would be outright dangerous even if the shard in question is doing it willingly.

But what could Abidan actually give them that Hera-QA can't? Why would they be interested in joining Abidan? Shards like to look for hosts that fit their character requirements and in many cases actually like them. Shards joining with their hosts or Hera is way more likely than going for Abidan. Because Abidan doesn't understand them and doesn't have much in the way of benefits that Hera can't provide them.
 
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What's fairly plausible is if the Abidan had encountered the entities before and killed them - and did so thoroughly and effectively. Which means they wouldn't have encountered a free shard that has sided with her host after then controlling intelligence was destroyed. So Eithan recognises what Hera is and what happened to her, but hadn't ever seen that happen before
 
What's fairly plausible is if the Abidan had encountered the entities before and killed them - and did so thoroughly and effectively. Which means they wouldn't have encountered a free shard that has sided with her host after then controlling intelligence was destroyed. So Eithan recognises what Hera is and what happened to her, but hadn't ever seen that happen before
I doubt it since Eithan didn't seem to recognize her since he did not know her specie has a completely different definition of individuality
 
Also, in Worm canon the author stated that if the cycle had succeeded the main thing the entities would have learned are dreams (which means the main thing that makes humans unique in the Worm is dreams which has interesting implications in this crossover).
Do you speak of wogs or canon as in the text?

Anyway, Hera would dream Taylor related dreams and Taylor would dream Taylor related dreams. OTP.
 
Well! I just re-read the fic; time well spent, since I picked up quite a bit more I missed the first time, lacking context. Northstrider insisting on letting Shen attack the Silent King's prison was a red flag for betrayal, especially given everyone knew the vast majority of the cloudships placed in a circle around the hundreds of miles diameter prison couldn't make it in time.

"This one's like Eithan," grumbled Yerin. "Everytime you think you're getting close, you blink twice and she's half a mile ahead."

Ahahaha; I love how Taylor's seen as ranking up there with Eithan.

Note that as talented as the others are, both Eithan and Taylor are teachers to them, particularly for Taylor in life lessons (which often help the Sacred Arts).

"There is no trick," I replied. "The reason why you can't simulate me accurately isn't because you don't have enough data on how I fight, it's because I've made myself impossible to predict on a conceptual level. As a Monarch-level construct, you possess your own authority separate from Lindon's, but it isn't strong enough to overcome mine yet.

Note Taylor's actively teaching Dross here, too, which is nice to see.

"This time," I said, "I'll do better." If I ever again found myself on my knees with a gun aimed at my head, I wouldn't have any regrets. I would protect the things and the people I cared about, and I would do it without sacrificing our relationships on the altar of necessity. If the world tried to deny me, it would be the world that flinched first.

And so it is; Taylor has made her second chance what she wants of it.
Taylor's revelations, if I recall:
Underlord: "I practice the Sacred Arts because I wouldn't know what to do with myself, otherwise."
Overlord: "I get my hands dirty so that others can keep theirs clean."
Archlord: "This time, I'll do better.' (Keep relationships good)

Mercy, if I recall, had revelations
Underlord: "I walk my Path so that my mother will be proud of me"
Overlord: I care
Archlord: "I won't always let other people fight my battles for me. I'll do my part."

Note that both Taylor and Mercy have revelations about other people, not just themselves.

Yerin
Overlord: But for now, all I want is a sword in my hand, an enemy in front of me, and someone I can trust next to me.

Yerin does, too.

Ziel did as well.

Well, even in their case, there was a point in their history where Khepri decided that she was absolute and unquestionable ruler of every last local copy of Earth in that multiverse, and then proceeded to murder the only remaining contender to that title with the power she held

I note that no Monarch on Cradle has unlimited power; their power ends at the power of another Monarch or set thereof.

No Monarch can beat the Abidan, either.

So... QA/Khepri get the Crown, and Taylor's working out the boundaries the Crown icon allows. It definitely allows ruling from the shadows or staging a soft coup... but Taylor really, really values her sisterly relationship with Mercy.

Harrying a trio of minor Chicago villains until they simply gave up and surrendered, having never even seen me.

Poor Top Hat and crew. Note the relevance to the Crown icon, too, in that when Top Hat went into a criminal-front restaurant for cover, Taylor simply made a phone call and he was kicked out.

That's power, too.

Around them, the universe teemed with secrets waiting to be discovered, a mouth-watering feast of knowledge.

Three scales on Hera manifesting Scholar as her second icon!

If she wanted to discover the secrets of the universe, then I wanted to discover them with her.

More of Taylor caring deeply about her personal relationships.

More importantly, that means Taylor's definitely going to Ascend eventually; she and Hera will eventually need to in order to keep discovering the secrets of the universe.

The vision in front of us was to both of our likings, so we would make it into reality.

Yeah; there's the unwavering determination that resonates with the Crown icon.

The understanding would come to me when I was ready. No, when we were ready. That much, I did remember. The slightly pained jumble I sensed from Hera told me that she was struggling as well, but behind that was something close to genuine affection, an emotion I'd never felt from her before.

An important point; QA/Hera is experiencing a new emotion: she cares for Taylor.

Taylor's so, so close to understanding Eithan, and it really does feel like she's more of a potential, eventual peer to him

They're both world-weary in some ways, they're both reaching out and teaching.

--

So, post-Malice's sacrifice, the Akura lost many outlying settlements and green land, a ton of money/treasure, and so on.

They gained a new Herald, three Overlord sages became Archlord sages, an Archlord, an Archlord Sage (Eithan), most of Dark Moon's archlord treasure, a major new Sage technique for city defense/mass battles, the start of Spider Judge understanding, much of the Sun King's surviving ancient loot... and a prototype Penance with blowback issues.

They don't have a Monarch... but they can kill one.

--

Someone really really needs to get the Dreadlord hand away from Shen.

--

Another three scales on Taylor's fourth icon being something like Big Sister or Teacher/Professor/Mentor. She's been teaching Mercy, Meira, Grace, Yerin, Lindon, Dross, even Eithan in ways.
 
Actually, thinking about it (lol) the 'human shape is the thinking shape' actually still applies to the Shards/Entities. After all, why are they even linking with host species to begin with? Thinking. The entities/shards have LOTS of processing power, but otherwise they're very dumb and severely lacking in creative thinking. Even with Hera, Taylor works to make her an avatar (aka giving her a human shape) to aid in her understanding.

Even with the entities having inhuman minds, there's countless trillions of other species in the wormverse that are sapient. The human shape is the thinking shape has uncountable trillions of counter examples.

What's fairly plausible is if the Abidan had encountered the entities before and killed them - and did so thoroughly and effectively. Which means they wouldn't have encountered a free shard that has sided with her host after then controlling intelligence was destroyed. So Eithan recognises what Hera is and what happened to her, but hadn't ever seen that happen before

Nope. The wormverse physics are gonzo bizarre compared to the weave's multiverse, and it's been mentioned how the judges would be excited that there's another localized multiverse out there separate from theirs. The weave just kind of peters out into formless chaos, and the judges have hoped/wished that the weave isn't everything there is to existence, and have theorized that out there in the infinite chaos there might be other weaves.
 
I think we should keep in mind that the Abidan's definition of humanity is a lot more expansive than our own. It's better to say that to gain more than a certain level of creativity, one requires a soul. There is a very definite question of chicken and egg here, because objects can clearly gain souls - dross went from a glorified recorder to having a full personality and remnants/spirits also appear spontaneously. Hiveminds are also not unheard of, given Last Horizon basically has the Borg who have their own level of OPness.

Obviously YMMV, but I don't see Taylor as very strange at all. Unusual, but all Waybound are unusual.
 
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If they kill the ancient dragon cosplaying as a little boy I wonder how Mercy will react to the idea of the Akura clan being expected to take over the rest of the Ashwind continent?
 
I note that no Monarch on Cradle has unlimited power; their power ends at the power of another Monarch or set thereof.

No Monarch can beat the Abidan, either.

So... QA/Khepri get the Crown, and Taylor's working out the boundaries the Crown icon allows. It definitely allows ruling from the shadows or staging a soft coup... but Taylor really, really values her sisterly relationship with Mercy.
This might not be entirely correct since the author of this fanfic said a full entity with authority can easily crush the Abidan it's possible that a monarch Taylor temporarily fusing with Queen Administrator/Hera would be as powerful as a judge since Queen Administrator/Hera was one of the highest ranked shards (even though she is currently missing vital hardware).

Bonus question: If Queen Administrator is Hera would that mean High Priest would be called Zeus?
 
I think we should keep in mind that the Abidan's definition of humanity is a lot more expansive than our own. It's better to say that to gain more than a certain level of creativity, one requires a soul. There is a very definite question of chicken and egg here, because objects can clearly gain souls - dross went from a glorified recorder to having a full personality and remnants/spirits also appear spontaneously. Hiveminds are also not unheard of, given Last Horizon basically has the Borg who have their own level of OPness.

Obviously YMMV, but I don't see Taylor as very strange at all. Unusual, but all Waybound are unusual.
Soul is a little odd here, there is your origin, which seems completely irrelevant to most pre ascension, Taylor got damaged origin when she melded with QA, which weakened her powers, and judges being killed damage their origin (which is why killing them rapidly is a possible way to permanently kill them, if infeasible one), on cradle, damaging the origin seems solely to be a thing of some rare monarch attacks.

Soul as cradle people perceive it is the remnant, this is why Eithan's powers attack "the soul", remnants are unique to cradle.

I would guess origin is connection to the way, once you get close enough to human, you get an origin, being less humans make it difficult to touch the way, which is why spirits can't get sagehood before they gain flesh, or why controlling madra is easier as a human.

You don't need to be a human to think, but human thinking is the only way to think, unless you are fiend, who's non human ways of thinking warp reality thanks to the nature of the way as human thing.

One of the judges isn't human but is bipedal, we are told of a star dragon and we know of advanced dragon shaped artists.

In cradle multiverse, human is a spectrum, going out of this spectrum is dangerous and a sign of corruption.
 
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Soul is a little odd here, there is your origin, which seems completely irrelevant to most pre ascension, Taylor got damaged origin when she melded with QA, which weakened her powers, and judges being killed damage their origin (which is why killing them rapidly is a possible way to permanently kill them, if infeasible one), on cradle, damaging the origin seems solely to be a thing of some rare monarch attacks.

Soul as cradle people perceive it is the remnant, this is why Eithan's powers attack "the soul", remnants are unique to cradle.

I would guess origin is connection to the way, once you get close enough to human, you get an origin, being less humans make it difficult to touch the way, which is why spirits can't get sagehood before they gain flesh, or why controlling madra is easier as a human.

You don't need to be a human to think, but human thinking is the only way to think, unless you are fiend, who's non human ways of thinking warp reality thanks to the nature of the way as human thing.

One of the judges isn't human but is bipedal, we are told of a star dragon and we know of advanced dragon shaped artists.

In cradle multiverse, human is a spectrum, going out of this spectrum is dangerous and a sign of corruption.
Considering the entities used the balance formula to have their shards be more humanlike, could that have connected them to the human way?

I wonder if Eden saw that the shards of her and Scion would get an answer to entropy with Path to Victory but did not realize that the path she saw included her and Scions death?
 
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