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Paradoxical [Destiny/Worm Post-GM]

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I found it engaging because it was a cool fight scene and I know nothing about Destiny, so this was a nice way to learn about what's up weapons-wise and tactically.

I can see Takareer's point because it's not Typical Taylor tactics, but it's been, like centuries since the Taylor we're used to seeing and her Khepri powers are Locked Down. It didn't bother or bore me that this chapter explored the Destiny side of things, and the This-Reminds-Me-of-Before for the last stage was a nice touch imo.

Like it had that 'oof i have feelings Until the mission starts and then they're compartmentalized away' thing that reminds me of Taylor.

Thanks for writing!
 
I think the issue is that while this chapter could have shown characterisation, could have shown us more about each person in the scene—especially Weaver and Cayde—it sort of... skipped over all the places it could have done that.

For a Crucible match, there's very little fighting. We don't get to see Cayde's cross-field banter as he challenges three people with nothing but a hand cannon and a little creative engineering. We don't see Weaver stalking someone from just outside their radar while directing her teammates to draw their attention elsewhere so her knife is the one they never feel leaving. We don't get to see the little individual touches for any character, really, that tells us who they are by how they like to kill—does, say, Orange use a shotgun? Why or why not? Do they favour laughing in their enemy's face, or are they a shadow from afar? For that matter... what class are they? (I know this is mentioned obliquely, but still).

(Perhaps these things were covered in the previous chapter, but even if they were, I'd argue seriously and honestly that it's not enough).

The most characterisation we got out of it came in three places: one, where we are told—not shown, nor implied—that Cayde likes fighting from the front; two, where we are told—not shown, nor implied—that Weaver and Cayde are adaptable; and three, where we are this time shown—rather than being told—that Cayde is kind in victory.

That's... well, stiff and dry are the words I'd use to describe it as well.

Now, don't get me wrong: I fully understand slogging through writing something. Mostly because I lack your dedication, @ensou, and in the end don't bother.

But I would offer my own hot take—at least, from my own experience attempting the exact same thing—that this chapter would have been more interesting to read and to write if it had actuallly focused more on the fighting as a vehicle to introduce its characters further to the audience.

How someone likes to fight can tell you a lot about who they are, if only you let it.
 
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ensou said:
And that's honestly what I was worried about. It's a crucible match, it's almost only combat, it doesn't show canon Weaver and her manipulations and leveraging different powers to control a situation psychologically. It... pretty much is just meant to give an idea of what a match is like, and/or appeal to those who know it. It doesn't show characterization all that well, and I was actually complaining to a friend earlier how it doesn't really have plot and thus isn't interesting. Or at least, my preffered form of interesting, since fights have an appeal of their own sometimes.
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Something occurred to me when I read this, and after rereading the chapter, I've got a thought stuck in my head.

Why write the crucible match at all?

I mean, I know it was the next logical step, but I think you could have got away with opening the chapter with that bit where Weaver and Cayde shake hands, maybe embellish a little on the quips to give more of an idea of what happened to inspire them, but otherwise just... Skip past the actual action of the crucible fight and move on.

I mean... Ultimately all that mattered in the fight was the outcome, to see who won between Taytay and Caycay, so...

I mean... I guess you also got to show off a couple of Taylor's weapons as well, but...

Egh, I'm rambling. Point is, it feels like you could have skipped the actual 'fight' and instead have had the characters discuss it after the fact. Might have worked better for your style and not much would have really been lost that I can see?

Not that I dislike the chapter as it stands, I'm just tossing out the idea since you asked for thoughts and suggestions. I love the chapter as is, but if you wanted to change it, this would be how I would do it?

EDIT, Having just read Magery's reply, I'd also add that considering their advice was almost the polar opposite of mine, perhaps the problem is that you're in the middle of the road when you really should have moved to one extreme or the other? Just one more thought to chew on.
 
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ensou said:
Edit: I don't really know what to do about that, but I'm more than open to suggestions.
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Something minor like a lengthier nod to Taylor's past would have been nice, especially if it influenced her decision-making now. I like these sorts of stories because I like when the main character is special/different, and I want to see how that plays with the rest of the world - if everything and everyone seems the same, it's less appealing.

With what you described, however, you may not need to change anything. If you had a target audience in mind and are metaphorically "hitting" that target, then the complaint "you don't appeal to <different> target audience" isn't really meaningful. No need, necessarily, to ruin your art by casting too wide a net.
 
I'll answer this one first since it leads to the next:

Spectral Waltz said:
Why write the crucible match at all?
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It was an experiment. There are two ways writing fights go for me: I'm super hyped about it and it comes out great or it's a chore and comes out mediocre.

Crucible matches are different from what I normally write in that they have strict parameters and rules of engagements, and (generally) nobody has weird advantages over the others: everybody's on a level playing field. Unlike cape fights, where they're utter chaos and it totally depends on the powers available.

So really, not writing it wasn't something I considered. It's definitely an option, but I'm pretty strong on the whole "show, don't tell" thing (although taken too far it leads to content bloat and slow stories, and I try to avoid that). Which... is actually why this has a problem, as you said: it straddles the line and doesn't lean clearly either direction.

Magery said:
But I would offer my own hot take—at least, from my own experience attempting the exact same thing—that this chapter would have been more interesting to read and to write if it had actuallly focused more on the fighting as a vehicle to introduce its characters further to the audience.
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And I think that was the problem: I never considered the teammates as anything more than background extras. Also the chapter growing too much, since I didn't want to write three whole separate rounds?

Taylor and Cayde's characterization could have been done better, though, and should have been, so there's definitely room for improvement there if not beyond that. I'm thinking about cutting it down to two teams of four, as it would make individualizing the characters easier, engagements more personal, and give more chance for single people to show their skills.
 
I feel it wouldn't be terribly hard to use this chapter as a means to introduce more characters to the story, if that is what you want to do. (which currently it seems you don't)
 
I feel like this should be the first half of a chapter. The ending bit where they talk just seems a little short. I can understand the lack of talking during a match, Crucible matches are hecktic enough as it is without talking, but it might be better to have more interaction in terms of Cayde yelling out stuff during the fight and then having all of the "technical stuff" come up during the aftermath where they all sit down and talk about the match. I got hyped when the "once in a decade" part came, but you didn't show me anything that I haven't seen before in a regular Crucible match other than the different supers and weapons Weaver used. Maybe in the setting of an after-battle review where you could have people like Shaxx be more of a character than an aside and have Weaver make more connections with people.
Just some thoughts.
 
Honestly it felt too game mechanichsy (totally a word look it up) to me. That kind of thing personally draws me out of a story. Overall I would say that picking a single perspecitve and showing the entire fight from their limited viewpoint, with any extra information coming from discussion after would leave this a stronger section. As it is it reads too much like a highlight reel of an actual crucible fight which may have been the intent but personally I didn't find it very engaging.

Edit: I would also say that the main flaw of this chapter is that it lacks purpose. It's not visceral and personal enough to carry it's weight as just a fight, and it from what I can tell it doesn't do anything to advance the plot. I sympathize with trying to write something and it just not working and I know you can write fight scenes from your other work, if you plan to try and edit this one I wish you luck but after a certain point it may be better to just cut it if you cant find a driving purpose for the chapter. Then again I'm in a phase where I have trouble appreciating fight scenes that are just fight scenes even if they're good so mileage may vary for others on this one. I really do think a closer perspective of one match would better convey the crucible though.
 
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I know jack shit about D1 or D2 and I have to agree this just felt like reading a youtube video of a fpsgame match's transcript or something.
Me no word gud.
 
Have to agree, this one was pretty, meh. It would have been better to have split the crucible match into three portions, run the first from Cayde's perspective, switch to Weaver for the second, then have the last be from Shaxx's POV.
 
The one thing I can add to the critique that hasn't been said by someone else is that the fight kind of ends really poorly. It's going back and forth with both teams trading kills then Taylor just loses 5 people in like 2 lines and the match is over. Felt really anti climatic and kind of made Taylor seem like a poor leader, (seriously 3 of her team mates being taken out by one rocket? She didn't tell them to spread out or what)?

That being said I do love this story but you can tell this chapter was fighting you.
 
BirdLawyer said:
The one thing I can add to the critique that hasn't been said by someone else is that the fight kind of ends really poorly. It's going back and forth with both teams trading kills then Taylor just loses 5 people in like 2 lines and the match is over. Felt really anti climatic and kind of made Taylor seem like a poor leader, (seriously 3 of her team mates being taken out by one rocket? She didn't tell them to spread out or what)?

That being said I do love this story but you can tell this chapter was fighting you.
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As anyone who has played crucible can tell you, this sort of match ending is annoyingly common. Hell, last Iron Banner the first match I played we were leading 110 to 70 and were just coming off of a power play, the other team, blitzed all three points, started popping supers like they were going out of style and racked up 50 points in about 30 seconds. The final score was 124-123 and we only won by time running out. I ate a nova bomb half a second after the clock ran out, which would have won them the match since they had advantage.
 
One additional thought: While it was strongly implied that Taylor has a vastly broader array of abilities than most guardians, it doesn't feel like that fully comes into play here. We see the grenades and the arc arrows, which make a big impression, but after that we're just sort of told that Cayde also has lots of unspecified tricks, such that he pretty much matches her on that front for the entire scenario. Similarly, we're told that once something like the arc arrows is revealed, it gets fully countered from then on, but that seems counter to how Crucible matches usually work; generally, everybody already knows what sort of tricks their opponents might have, and yet well-placed supers can consistently kill two thirds of a team.

It's not bad, it just feels... off.

(The part where much of the loss is her teammates getting killed off is very true to the Crucible experience, though. Darn random teammates.)
 
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Honestly i think the part that stuck out to me the most is that it sounds like Taylor was using BA weapons. Unless I need to reread what she brought with her and she has the Reef weapons that also look like swords.
 
*cough* You know, @ensou, the offer to do some art for this - or any of your other stories, for that matter - is always open.

Just...someone will actually have to commission it from me. No freebies, this time. Sorry. :p
 
Based on a single read through and barebones knowledge of Destiny, I enjoyed the chapter. However, I think it's problematic that your summaries of the previous rounds were more enjoyable than the detailed description of the last round of combat. Off the top of my head I'd suggest doing a detailed description of two earlier rounds, one win and one loss, specifically including the awesomeness you've described of Weaver's bow, before doing a summary of how she lost the set. Or make the last round more exciting and unexpected, like a (possibly melee) duel between Cayde while the remainder of each team keep each other occupied, perhaps with some sort of twist ending like winning the duel but losing the match because their teammates are defeated by the opposition shortly before they take down the winning duelist. I hope this opinion helps. Thanks for the chapter.

E: I also like how polite Weaver is when planning with her teammates.
 
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I liked it, but if you want to work on it, I would recommend focusing on the player's perspective more. For example, you don't need to show us the exact score or a play-by-play if you cut to Shaxx yelling to the crowd that "THIS IS THE GREATEST MATCH THAT HAS EVER BEEN PLAYED!" Or Cayde wondering where Weaver keeps pulling out all of the insane stuff she has, or Weaver wondering what in the world the Ace of Spades in made of. I mean, in a real crucible match, do you see everything that is going on? Focusing on a few perspectives might help us to get invested in the match more than we were.
 
Great to see this updating! Honestly its one of my favorites on this site. I really liked the way you wrote the whole crucible section here, it sort of felt like playing a crucible match. The only thing that might have improved it (in my opinion) would have been a segment from the Titan cannon protagonist's POV to highlight Taylor's unorthodox tactics and weapons as opposed to the Guardians.
 
ensou said:
It'd worked… until Weaver started shooting them through the walls they hid behind. Somehow.
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If I'm correct in my thinking, the the Stygian Needle is some bullshit.
ensou said:
It was obvious when she used it in this match, however, because suddenly both she and the bow were crackling with Arc energy, the drawstring bright white like an incandescent filament. Rather than drawing an arrow and notching it like she had every other time she'd used the bow, she simply started pulling back the drawstring, two bolts of spitting lightning appearing as soon as she did.

It took less than half a second for her to move out into the open from corner she'd been behind, the string released, the two of the opposing team who'd been advancing suddenly just gone. The only sign anything had even happened was the sharp crack of displaced air, the already-disappearing bright white trails of plasma, and a pair of Arc pulses left behind where the arrows had impacted.

And then she did it again. And again. And again.

Unlike a Nightstalker's pure-Void bow, she managed to get seven of those bolts of instant death off before the other team brought her down. She may have even had more left in her.
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Oh good God.

I want it.
 
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