- Location
- Earth
Absolutely. Where achievements and merit are concerned, he definitely qualifies. But from what I understand, he'd also need to be a Grade-1 Fixer to get a Color assigned. Which he was not due to demotions.
Palace of Greed, El Dorado (Library of Ruina)
- Thread starter SoothingCoffee
- Start date
thePUNisher
Unbothered. Moisturized. Happy. In My Lane
- Location
- Brazil
It'a still kinda funny to me that they straight up just demoted him back to a level 1 crook. You think they'd have killed him or something but nah, they just revoked his license and let his lack of a retirement fund do the rest.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
I always knew that bird was the real one in control of the office
Whiskas
This Thyme? Disco Time.
I mean... It is an objectively funny solution, and the Head are very weird about that they do. I bet they weren't even mad about him doing it, and gave him what amounts to a slap on the wrist compared to what they actually could have done.
Sightedjt
Everlasting Flames
The one singular clue to it in the game is that he isn't the one wearing the gloves in the flashback of them working together.
Asides from that though, the only reason for 'silence' the artbook gives is that the gloves also dampen sound, which comes up exactly not at all anywhere outside that one line in the artbook.
In terms of style, thematics, and basically everything else, Roland or the pair of them acting together is the better fit for the title. The one they went with is the weakest of the options IMO.
Asides from that though, the only reason for 'silence' the artbook gives is that the gloves also dampen sound, which comes up exactly not at all anywhere outside that one line in the artbook.
In terms of style, thematics, and basically everything else, Roland or the pair of them acting together is the better fit for the title. The one they went with is the weakest of the options IMO.
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Also During the Black Silence Reception's Roland & Angelica Phase. Roland's srpites only used Durandal while Angelica's used the rest of the weapons... Though most people don't notice that. (Hell the only reason I noticed was cause I was checking out the Public Google Drive of LoR Stuff's Sprite section for fun.)
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thePUNisher
Unbothered. Moisturized. Happy. In My Lane
- Location
- Brazil
You know, what even is the deal with the ghost Angelica? Is she Roland's EGO or something? It's weird he can straight up make a Stand of his wife so is there some explanation for it?
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
The Library Syncing with his emotions like His & Angela's during Floor Realizations... Maybe Distortion? Probably the Same reason he can turn into a giant smoke tentacle monster with mini smoke monster byproducts minions during the second Phase.
- Location
- Ninja Island
It has to do with his memories since the Smoke Monster is most likely the Singularity of the previous L Corp that was erased from his mind. The phase with Angelica was the memory of the two of them against Blood Red Night in her base.
I'm guessing that his actual Distortion is what is fought in the end and it all relies on his memories. Hell, I think that if he was given enough time as a Distortion he would be able to use the memories of his enemies against them.
Edit: Maybe that's another reason why the Smoke War was so bloody was that the Singularity kept spawning more and more minions to protect itself from everyone that tried to grab it. It also didn't help that the Smoke was so thick that people in the Backstreets could die from choking on it.
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- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
And don't forget turning people into swans. That's obviously the most important part of the Smoke Singularity!
- Location
- Earth
I remain of the opinion that she is his E.G.O.; it fits thematically that the manifestation of Roland's self ends up being his wife. I also like the added layer of severity it gives his Reception: not only does he distort into the smoke monster, he then comes back and manifests E.G.O. right after.
- Location
- CA
No, I strongly disagree with this. There's been no indication that manifesting EGO is something you have to do deliberately every time; it seems to be more an unlocked power. And if he had it, then he would have used it against the Reverb Ensemble or against the Head, because he entered into both of those fights with full commitment. And he definitely would have used it to finish off Argalia, because it would have been maximally dramatic.
More than that, it wouldn't work for thematic reasons. Roland's arc throughout Ruina is about moving on from the past and growing past what the pain of living in the City has done to him. And not to put too sharp a point on it, but Angelica was part of that: he loved her, but "this is this, that is that" is the very essence of the City's disease of the mind, for all that it presents as kindness. He realized that the way he was living was wrong, but in a moment of vulnerability, she taught him to give up. It's not your fault, everyone's doing their best, but you've got to put on your own oxygen mask before helping others, right? But in a place like the City, you never have that luxury. (Not even a Color and the de facto leader of one of the strongest Offices could be assured of reaching a Nest, after all! And even a Nest can fall.) And so you only ever help yourself.
"She showed me the way to turn away from the City's agonies even without my mask. You may have been a good person, but I would not consider you a wise one." Binah's Realization is all about him finally confronting the fact that Angelica was wrong, and that he has to move past her blinkered worldview. Clinging to her even so would be a regression, and EGO is about resolution. That's why she's part of his Distortion, when he's still not able to move on and free himself from the past--and that's why that phase of the fight is all about him following her lead. To win, you have to separate him from the ghost he's clinging to and make him stand on his own.
Roland will Manifest EGO if he doesn't die in some freak accident, because that'd be a certainty even if he wasn't starting a new life with the world's experts on the topic. But he's not quite there at the end of Ruina.
- Location
- Earth
For the first part: who says he actually had it during the Reverb Ensemble fight? It easily can just have come afterward. Actually, it must have. One condition for activation is a strong surge of emotions, and Roland kept his true feelings suppressed till Argalia was dead. (As said by him, in the scene right after).
Second part: Roland's arc was not concluded by the time of his Reception. He had not moved on yet. If he had, there would have been no choice between endings once Binah's Realisation is concluded. And far lesser people than him (hi, Philip) manifested E.G.O. before. Also, you make it sound like loving his wife and grieving for her loss is somehow a bad thing. It is not, the only bad part is the extremes it pushed him to. Roland does not suddenly stop loving Angelica, or forgets her because he realises there is yet a future to be embraced. If anything, I imagine she remains in fond memory once he moves on.
And lastly, what the hell else would his E.G.O. be? There is nothing more thematically appropriate than manifesting Angelica by his side, because it ties to Roland's core motivation throughout the entire story: his love and yearning for her.
- Location
- CA
First part: you did, actually, quoting a post asking what the ghost Angelica of Black Silence phase 3 is, which follows phase 2, the smoke monster.
If you changed your mind, that's fine.
Second part: yeah, of course he hasn't internalized the lesson of Binah's reception, he's just realized and acknowledged it. And loving his wife isn't a bad thing, no. You can love bad people, let alone the misguided good. But she was still wrong, because her central philosophy is that of the City's disease of the mind. Even if she never died, even if he had never gone on that rampage, she would still be wrong, and she would still have stifled Roland's growth as a person, on purpose. She may have been good, but she was not wise.
Third part: I don't know, because Roland hasn't reached Manifestation of his EGO yet. At the end of Ruina, he's decided to take a new path, and he's decided that he'll take it together with his friend, but he hasn't yet begun to travel it. Whatever form it takes, it'll be formed from that journey toward something better, or from the Library where he started that journey.
- Location
- Earth
Wut? I did not. I said the Black Silence Reception, which by all accounts happens once Blue Reverberation is dealt with. I never said Roland had his E.G.O. before that point.
For everything else, we have to agree to disagree. I maintain this is his E.G.O., you say it is not. We are not going to get anywhere new.
SoothingCoffee
Umumumu
- Location
- The Library
To add my own two cent, I don't think Phase 3 was his EGO -- though I also think whether it is his EGO or not doesn't really matter all that much.
I don't entirely agree with this, in that she's wrong, because so as long as she can find joy and comfort and cope through the horrors of the City and her past, then I think it's not wrong -- and with stifling Roland's growth, this is also the same mindset/philosophy that allowed Roland to finally stop hiding his face from under his own mask, from, in a way, reality itself, thus opening his own heart (for good and for ill). "Disease of the mind" is real, of course, but like, it's also an incredibly abstract thing, and for someone who's living in the deep of the shit, it's really hard to actually concern yourself over things like that, and you can only find joy and comfort in the small little happy things (like pajeon).
I think, if Angelica didn't die, and Roland and her "lived happily ever after", even if Roland doesn't grow as a person, if that's his own end-point, even if he could grow to become more, if he finds joy and satisfaction in it, then it should be absolutely be fine.
I don't entirely agree with this, in that she's wrong, because so as long as she can find joy and comfort and cope through the horrors of the City and her past, then I think it's not wrong -- and with stifling Roland's growth, this is also the same mindset/philosophy that allowed Roland to finally stop hiding his face from under his own mask, from, in a way, reality itself, thus opening his own heart (for good and for ill). "Disease of the mind" is real, of course, but like, it's also an incredibly abstract thing, and for someone who's living in the deep of the shit, it's really hard to actually concern yourself over things like that, and you can only find joy and comfort in the small little happy things (like pajeon).
I think, if Angelica didn't die, and Roland and her "lived happily ever after", even if Roland doesn't grow as a person, if that's his own end-point, even if he could grow to become more, if he finds joy and satisfaction in it, then it should be absolutely be fine.
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- Location
- Moscow, Russia
This is this and that is that. I think I will do a terrible job of explaining some points of L games, because EN is not my first or second language, but here I go.
--
WARNING IT'S ALL SPOILERS
--
I will speak of some basic premises of games - Theory of Id Ego and Super-Ego; Facing Fear; Building Future, and how those are realized through the games.
Judging who is a good boy and who is the bad boy is stupid, because good boy is a murderous psychological dysfunction of a tortured human being and our job is to beat it up with stick. Deciphering every character and their message is a too grand thing to doo on a phone using unfamiliar language, so I will just explain some of those and later will post cringe comments on YouTube videos. Let's start with a bad gal of the series.
The bad gal of the series being of course Carmen. The initiator of the whole Lobotomy Corporation, the reason and cause of some character in the first game (plus several other things but this is massive spoiler ) and the friendly voice in the second game that is whispering to the mentally unstable persons "Hey, ignore the rest of the world, ignore the rocking reality only you matter, exists only for yourself btw massacre and mass murder is totally this season thing and you should try it, like, right now". While the main motto " Face the fear, build the future " Carmen, while initially pushing towards those goals, was broken by her fears or, tragedy of her situation and abandoned The future by @#@###28( turning herself into a pickle.... In a jar... Although, her final words and some info from the Library (ehehe) reveal that it was not tragedy of person being broken by the world, but tragedy of lack of commitment. Carmen was simply not willing to face the horrors of reality, but neither she was willing to abandon her wishes fully, so she simply put all her responsibility on shoulders of A. Basically, doing no work, but receiving all the benefits of it. Thus, Carmen became the first distortion (don't confuse with abnormalities). Egotistical being without actual will to work towards the goal, uncaring of suffering of others and expecting that her goals will become reality, deluding herself with empty dreams. In other words: "Broken by her fears, unwilling to build the future, demanding her own utopia no matter the cost", an ultimate Baby, ID.
The next character I can mansplain is Philip, the Crying baby. The second game of the series is where concept of ID (distortion; basic desires level), Ego (actual normal human, emotional level) and Super-Ego (Ego items/armor; perfect vision of themselves by human being, intellectual moral level). Philip is presented at the start as a normal human being (ego) with his own little dream of catching a girl and becoming a strong knight in shining armor (super ego) but with his insecurities, egotistical desire to live, fear, shyness, jealousy (ID) with his ideal wish for himself to be the brave hero he, after several extremely potent emotional episodes he began to manifest his Ego suit, but sadly for him, he was hit with the clown juice, advised to listen to some Carmen by the devil, and turned into babys. In the end, it can be summarized, that despite having morals and some ide of his perfect self, he was put into unlucky situation and his basic insecurities and FEARS were too much for his conviction to overcome, so he turned into egotistical uncaring being driven by basic desires and murdered millions of people (or hundred of thousands) . He became yet another Carmen.
Now the third person, Xiao. Strong code of conduct that was not restraining her initiative or emotional level. She is basically Philip, but done right. Thanks to the power of strong will, she was able to accept reality as it is (Overcame her fear of reality), accept her wish to have more than that (While not being sure what future might bring, she accepted the possibility of failure, yet she still Faced the future) while still remembering and acknowledging others around her. Thus she received her EGO suit. While still self-centered existence, she held onto her ties with others, lamenting that her nature ment that others around her are in danger.
Roland is a little complicated and I am tired and out of time. So basically, through all Library to the true ending it was the story of Rolland and Angela accepting their past, their fears. While personal growth was a thing for Rolland his story was mostly about accepting reality and finding a will to live. While he Faced his fears, he still not building a future. Both he and Angela just said goodbye to their past and began a new story with a clean state. So he is not ready yet to receive his ego suit, but he won't become a true distortion anymore.
--
WARNING IT'S ALL SPOILERS
--
I will speak of some basic premises of games - Theory of Id Ego and Super-Ego; Facing Fear; Building Future, and how those are realized through the games.
Judging who is a good boy and who is the bad boy is stupid, because good boy is a murderous psychological dysfunction of a tortured human being and our job is to beat it up with stick. Deciphering every character and their message is a too grand thing to doo on a phone using unfamiliar language, so I will just explain some of those and later will post cringe comments on YouTube videos. Let's start with a bad gal of the series.
The bad gal of the series being of course Carmen. The initiator of the whole Lobotomy Corporation, the reason and cause of some character in the first game (plus several other things but this is massive spoiler ) and the friendly voice in the second game that is whispering to the mentally unstable persons "Hey, ignore the rest of the world, ignore the rocking reality only you matter, exists only for yourself btw massacre and mass murder is totally this season thing and you should try it, like, right now". While the main motto " Face the fear, build the future " Carmen, while initially pushing towards those goals, was broken by her fears or, tragedy of her situation and abandoned The future by @#@###28( turning herself into a pickle.... In a jar... Although, her final words and some info from the Library (ehehe) reveal that it was not tragedy of person being broken by the world, but tragedy of lack of commitment. Carmen was simply not willing to face the horrors of reality, but neither she was willing to abandon her wishes fully, so she simply put all her responsibility on shoulders of A. Basically, doing no work, but receiving all the benefits of it. Thus, Carmen became the first distortion (don't confuse with abnormalities). Egotistical being without actual will to work towards the goal, uncaring of suffering of others and expecting that her goals will become reality, deluding herself with empty dreams. In other words: "Broken by her fears, unwilling to build the future, demanding her own utopia no matter the cost", an ultimate Baby, ID.
The next character I can mansplain is Philip, the Crying baby. The second game of the series is where concept of ID (distortion; basic desires level), Ego (actual normal human, emotional level) and Super-Ego (Ego items/armor; perfect vision of themselves by human being, intellectual moral level). Philip is presented at the start as a normal human being (ego) with his own little dream of catching a girl and becoming a strong knight in shining armor (super ego) but with his insecurities, egotistical desire to live, fear, shyness, jealousy (ID) with his ideal wish for himself to be the brave hero he, after several extremely potent emotional episodes he began to manifest his Ego suit, but sadly for him, he was hit with the clown juice, advised to listen to some Carmen by the devil, and turned into babys. In the end, it can be summarized, that despite having morals and some ide of his perfect self, he was put into unlucky situation and his basic insecurities and FEARS were too much for his conviction to overcome, so he turned into egotistical uncaring being driven by basic desires and murdered millions of people (or hundred of thousands) . He became yet another Carmen.
Now the third person, Xiao. Strong code of conduct that was not restraining her initiative or emotional level. She is basically Philip, but done right. Thanks to the power of strong will, she was able to accept reality as it is (Overcame her fear of reality), accept her wish to have more than that (While not being sure what future might bring, she accepted the possibility of failure, yet she still Faced the future) while still remembering and acknowledging others around her. Thus she received her EGO suit. While still self-centered existence, she held onto her ties with others, lamenting that her nature ment that others around her are in danger.
Roland is a little complicated and I am tired and out of time. So basically, through all Library to the true ending it was the story of Rolland and Angela accepting their past, their fears. While personal growth was a thing for Rolland his story was mostly about accepting reality and finding a will to live. While he Faced his fears, he still not building a future. Both he and Angela just said goodbye to their past and began a new story with a clean state. So he is not ready yet to receive his ego suit, but he won't become a true distortion anymore.
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thePUNisher
Unbothered. Moisturized. Happy. In My Lane
- Location
- Brazil
That's a cool analyzis and all but spacing, my man, I've seen less blocks in Minecraft. It feels like I'm reading one of my old essays.
- Location
- Moscow, Russia
Phone, little time. Sorry
- Location
- CA
I don't think him finding happiness in that way is thematically possible, because of two points Ruina hammers in again and again:
1) Living in a place like the City requires taking from others, whether or not you see them. (Singularities are the foundation of the setting and thus far have always been shown to involve suffering. Many smaller examples.)
2) Cycles. The evil you do always comes back to you. (Roland cheating someone out of a Nest spot is immediately constrasted against him getting cheated himself. The Reverb Ensemble is composed entirely of people Roland has wronged, and also Argalia. Ayin, Angela, and Roland.)
Roland has taken too much from too many people by the time he marries Angelica: the foundation of his happiness was always going to crumble. His rampage was inevitable, and that rampage is not some Killing Joke-esque "every man is one bad day away from becoming the Joker" message, it's his reaction to realizing that "this is this, that is that" is a lie. You cannot find happiness by disregarding others, but living in the City as it is requires that disregard. (Edit: His repeated statements that maybe he deserved this are not a depressed man saying nothing meaningful, they are thematic resonance.) That paradox is what drives his rampage, and his growth at the end of Ruina comes from his movement from "you cannot be happy in the City" to "you cannot be happy in the City, but you can change it."
But if we disagree here, then I think we disagree too fundamentally about Ruina as a work of fiction to have a productive conversation about it.
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thePUNisher
Unbothered. Moisturized. Happy. In My Lane
- Location
- Brazil
I've been thinking about what I said about Kai having some secret theme hidden behind the icy one she inherired from her mother because of her secret Perk. And I think I might have gotten it backwards:
I know I'm probably grasping at straws, but I think it somewhat fits.
We know Kai's mother doesn't aprove of her fighting style and that it's Kai trying to make something of her own instead of going for pure efficiency, so what if the Perk is Kai abandoning her Dance after being pushed far enough and using the style her mother taught her?
I know I'm probably grasping at straws, but I think it somewhat fits.
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- Location
- Moscow, Russia
Mmm, some of people were not wronged by Rolland (clown, shark, someone else) those who were wronged by him, were mostly wronged during his rampage after the death of Angelica (except the crazy vampire, but she was a crazy vampire mass murderer, I doubt she counts) the only person "wronged" before the death of Angelica was Blue reverberation, man child.
The nest is a bubble dream. Rolland is not the only one who tried to get in and not the only one rejected. Lowell, if I remember correctly, was living In the Nest and still, he had tremendous troubles getting his Wife Xiao inside the nest, taking on A Star of the city ( and offing Philip by Xiao on top of it) would only help with this goal, not guarantee anything.
I totally understand where are you coming from, but Rolland actually had a very decent chance at having it being an okay life for his family, not in the nest, not butterflies happy, but somewhat better than most in the city.
And Rolland Lamentations were not because he expected consequences, he already knew about them. It was mostly about killing he did in a library including his best friend.
For me the main theme of True ending for Rolland is that its possible to begin again even after greatest of defeat, with help, you can accept your past and turn "that is that and this is this" (Ignore your morals, ignore every contradiction to continue living) (btw, originally not his phrase, for him it was always distancing himself with his mask, the phrase belongs and better fit Angelica) into "It is what it is" (Witch is still, only potential to be better but it's a step).
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Crow
Falling is a Pleasure. Regardless of its Fate
Uh not really with the hair? Or am I reading wrong? like thats only Red Mist and its mostly because she only leaves in her wake...red mist.
Like Iori is blackhaired, Black Silence
had silver hair.
Huh just realized light hair gives you increidble power in PMoonverse
thePUNisher
Unbothered. Moisturized. Happy. In My Lane
- Location
- Brazil
Counterpoint: Roland and the Arbiters all have black hair, the Claws might also have it but idk if they're wearing masks or are just made of wood or something.Uh not really with the hair? Or am I reading wrong? like thats only Red Mist and its mostly because she only leaves in her wake...red mist.
Like Iori is blackhaired, Black Silence, Vergilius is silver-haired. or gray. Argalia is white haired-had silver hair.
Huh just realized light hair gives you increidble power in PMoonverse
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
So Unless you're Built Different Like Kali/Geb. You have to have Monochrome hair to get anywhere... Welp Good thing Kai's got Monochrome hair and Lily's Literally Built Different with the whole resurrection thingy.