People keep talking about Eleanore being swayed to evil or corrupted by the Gauntlet. I'd like to argue that she was already very, very, evil. 3 pieces of evidence.

1. She has spent the vast majority of Louise's life grinding her into the dirt. Now, granted, part of that was simply her being horrendously mean and Louise's oldest sister. But one of the key points she pressed was her magic and just look at that. In a world where mages have an affinity for one of five elements, Louise is a mage who can't use any of them and, yet, can cast explosions that easily break incredibly powerful wards. Eleanore isn't stupid, she can do that math, even if she doesn't consciously acknowledge it. Even laying void magic aside, they're the daughters of a pair of war heroes. "I explode you" is just about the best magic for putting people into the ground and she had to see that too. Instead of helping Louise find her feat, at all, she broke her and kept breaking her until neither of them thought she could so much as stand on her own, let alone make something of herself. It makes sense too, after all, who would make for a better heir for Karin of the Heavy Wind? The literal messiah and master of explosions or a bookworm that literally no one likes?

And, again, even if you were to lay all of that aside, what would you call someone who picks on a younger relative for a crippling disability they can't control.

2. If I recall correctly, and I very well might not, Eleanore freed Louis and didn't tell her parents about it, hoping to fix it her self and avoid the consequences. In the process her innocent sister got turned into a vampire over the course of many nights. Putting innocents in danger in order to save your own skin and assuage your ego isn't exactly the act of a Hero.

3. This is the big one: She hurts other people because it makes her feel good. It's not just acceptable targets, like has been mentioned, it's anyone and everyone she can. Her sisters, her friends, other university students; I'd wager the only people who get spared this treatment are her parents. The thing is, she doesn't just hurt people, she puts them in a position where they can't possibly retaliate; then she hurts them until that they'll carry it with them, until they can't ignore it, but can still function; then she sends them on their way. What do you think happens next? Most of them aren't going to just let it go, not after she's done twisting whatever knives she's stuck them with. No, they'll take it out on whoever's around them and unable to resist. And those people will do the same in turn. It's the Crowley school of extraordinarily effective evil. How much suffering do you think she's brought into the world that way?

No, the gauntlet isn't' going to corrupt her. It can't. She's already evil. (Un)fortunately, she's also incompetent when it comes to ruling.


Well, this is going to be awkward for Karin.

LIterally all her kids went back into the Family business. I mean.... My God, I was at least banking on Eleanor remaining pure* for more of the story.

*Pure in the sense of not going Evil.
I'd like to point out that both Duke and Karin seem to be Pragmatic good. They certainly won't conscience someone using actually evil means to achieve Good ends, but that doesn't mean they can't see through the trappings of Evil to the actual actions that have been performed.

If I recall correctly, it was hinted, earlier, that Duke subscribed to several underworld publications, while in disguise, to keep abreast of what's happening. There's nothing really wrong with subscribing to those publications, but it certainly looks evil, what with needing to associate with demons and all. I think he'll be able to see that the actual harm Louise has caused has been minimal and her goals, both explicitly and in practice, are to protect her friend and liege and depose a group of corrupt usurpers.

They won't be happy, by most measures, but they'll be able to come to terms with their youngest daughter's actions without leveling the continent. Eleanor on the other hand... they still probably won't level the continent, but I don't think she'll have the same sort of shield as her Louise or Cattleya.
 
Hi. I bite my nails because they split if they get too long and it's more convenient than carrying nail clippers everywhere.
Ew. That's really lazy of you. It's not that hard to clip your nails maybe once a week when they get too long, and way more sanitary and the result is usually a lot neater looking than what you get when using your teeth...
 
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Eleonore might be a bit evil (kinda-sorta). But she wasn't Evil. Mind the capitalization.

She was a full blown Good Hero.
Selfish? Yes. Careless? Occasionally. Kind of a dick? She's got a scale named after her.
But she was still Good. Plenty of Good people are ... well just look at Blitzheart von Zerbst.

But succumbing to the Gauntlet turned her full on burning eyes, monologueing, cliche cackling Evil/evil Dark Lady. (or at least gave the Gauntlet's intellect keys to her body)

Luise is actually sort of a thematic opposite. She's full blown burning eyes, sinister laugh, Dark Powers Evil Overlady. But she's not really evil per se.

She has morals ... most of them. She acts in the name of good ... as far as she's able to fool herself. She battles evil people ... who just happen to also be agents of Good.
In short, she's pretty deep down the Delusional Evil well, but still hanging on the edge. Barely.
 
Well, I guess Louise has to defeat her elder sister without her Gauntlet. Or, perhaps, defeat her and then recruit her? Eleanore seems very, very easily swayed to Evil.

Unfortunately, I suspect she's still 100 CentiEleanores worth of mean.
Now that she's dumped that pesky morality problem I expect she will either exceed 1 Eleanore in Mean or (being the standard of metric for being Mean) simply increase the value of the Eleanore.
 
I note Eleanores glowing eyes are yellow, like fear, rather than Loiuses pink like love. (Tsun-tsun tsundere tsundere tsun.)

I think Machiavelli may have had a few things to say about this, and I'd say he's know a little more about overlording than us, seeing as he invented it.
 
I really can't believe people are trying to paint Eleanor as the bad guy here. I mean it takes some strong cognitive dissonance to see her defeat a soon to be dark god and then pull what was clearly an evil and corrupting artifact off her sister's hand to try and save her and then go 'man what a bitch.'

I mean it's almost always played for laughs, but Louise has done some actual no shit capital E evil things. Even if she has good intentions and has done a couple goodish things, she's definitely not the good guy here.

(Not that Eleanor is exactly a saint either, but her badness is mostly on the scale of 'not a pleasant person' rather than 'is evil.')
 
I note Eleanores glowing eyes are yellow, like fear, rather than Loiuses pink like love. (Tsun-tsun tsundere tsundere tsun.)

I think Machiavelli may have had a few things to say about this, and I'd say he's know a little more about overlording than us, seeing as he invented it.
Machiavelli was a die hard Democrat/Republican ideologist ... but since you can't exactly eat ideals he had to work for a living.

So he applied for an upper management post with the local Overlord. He wrote a helpful "How to Rule" manual as part of the application.

His prospective employer threw the guy out on his ass. Burned the manual. Tried to conquer the local lands using an overly complicated fiscal scheme (which the manual explicitly advised to not ever try) ... and promptly bankrupted.
 
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I really can't believe people are trying to paint Eleanor as the bad guy here. I mean it takes some strong cognitive dissonance to see her defeat a soon to be dark god and then pull what was clearly an evil and corrupting artifact off her sister's hand to try and save her and then go 'man what a bitch.'

It is quite possible for someone to be a genuinely Heroic, Good person while still also being a bitch. For one thing, we are seeing this entire thing from Lousies PoV so we are quite naturally more sympathetic to our plucky villain when dealing with our Int 20, CHA 1 sister. If this was a story about Eleanor and her attempts at glory through wit, deeds and generally being a snarky trickster mentor to everyone around her, then naturally we'd see her attempts to save her sisters soul more sympathetically.

Yes, she defeated a Dark Goddess. Thats a Heroic and Good deed.
Being happy about also 'accidentally' sealing/trapping her rivals soul in the process was a bitchy deed.
Removing the mental affecting gauntlet from her sister to save her was a Good and Heroic Deed.
Hitting her in the face with the metal gauntlet to shut her up would be a Bitchy Deed.
 
I have to admit, the way this fic plays around with good and evil (the personal morality choices) and Good and Evil (the sides in a cosmic war) make my head spin, sometimes.

I mean, Good and Evil are clearly absolutes. There are very plain, bright-line divisions between them. Moreover, they very definitely have an effect on the alignments of their adherents. What Gnarl's been doing to Louise isn't just about corrupting her down the ways of Dark magic and promoting the ascendancy of Evil, it's actually trying to seduce her into evil behavior. Murder, torture (even of minions), casual cruelty. (Heck, if you think about it long enough, the base personality traits of minions are set up so that any Overperson has to resort to evil behavior in order to effectively control them, and in turn that starts to desensitize them to evil acts generally ("they're only minions") unless they have a hugely strong mental-categories filter. Which most people don't have, or else my nine-year-old self, just introduced to D&D, wouldn't have looked at stories about adults worried about the game and asked "why can't these people tell reality from fantasy?")

So that's a specific thing. Capital-E Evil specifically encourages lowercase-e evil.

But Capital-G Good, from what this fic shows, does literally nothing to encourage lowercase-g good. Someone who is good is someone who is a victim. Kindness gets you abused, tortured, and murdered. Mercy is just giving your enemies another chance to stab you in the back. As far as I can tell, there's not a single Good person with the possible exceptions of the Duke and Duchess de la Valliere (and surprisingly, Kirche, who's at least sympathetic towards her sibling), who shows a smidgeon of goodness. As someone said earlier in the thread, the forces of Good in this story are basically an RPG party. It reminds me of, well, when I was 10 and playing AD&D, and the whole point of the detect evil and know alignment spells were to identify legitimate targets. Because I was young and stupid (and because dungeon modules written up as encounter sets for adults are bad at explaining roleplaying nuance, particularly in a game system that was still about 80% small-unit tactics simulator grown out of a fantasy wargame), I legitimately thought that part of the job of being a hero in the fantasy setting was to discover that the village blacksmith was secretly Neutral Evil and kill him before he could harm the fellow villagers before setting off to raid the orcs. And that's the logic that, apparently, this whole story runs on. Von Zerbst is obviously a parody of those kind of heroes, but Tabitha, Guiche, and Monmon are no better, just more murdery and stealy and less rapey. Eleanore probably tested out all her magical potions by kidnapping peasant children and dissecting their puppies and kittens alive in front of their eyes, just because Brimirism says that nobles can do whatever they want to their peasants and therefore it's perfectly Good behavior. The fact that she fell to Evil in approximately five seconds comes as no surprise at all.

Now, part of it is the fact that we're hanging out with our protagonists, but even among adherents of Evil we've seen elements of genuine good behavior. Love of family, loyalty to country, sympathy for a friend's hurts. It's entirely possible that Jessica, an actual from-Hell demon, might be the most genuinely lowercase-g good person in the story, even though she'd never even consider siding with actual Good. And, of course, all this is miserably hopeless, because as we've seen, Evil is inherently evil and draws people in that direction. And attempting to "opt out" of the whole Good/Evil dynamic is merely siding with Evil (with a side of staggering delusion).

...God, I'm getting depressed now. :( I mean, is that actually the point of the story? To illustrate the miserable hopelessness of all these people while indulging in Warhammer 40K-esque black comedy? I feel like with this chapter we've crossed some kind of rubicon, where it's going to be overtly all downhill from here instead of implicitly all downhill from here...
 
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I have to admit, the way this fic plays around with good and evil (the personal morality choices) and Good and Evil (the sides in a cosmic war) make my head spin, sometimes.

I mean, Good and Evil are clearly absolutes. There are very plain, bright-line divisions between them. Moreover, they very definitely have an affect on the alignments of their adherents. What Gnarl's been doing to Louise isn't just about corrupting her down the ways of Dark magic and promoting the ascendancy of Evil, it's actually trying to seduce her into evil behavior. Murder, torture (even of minions), casual cruelty. (Heck, if you think about it long enough, the base personality traits of minions are set up so that any Overperson has to resort to evil behavior in order to effectively control them, and in turn that starts to desensitize them to evil acts generally ("they're only minions") unless they have a hugely strong mental-categories filter. Which most people don't have, or else my nine-year-old self, just introduced to D&D, wouldn't have looked at stories about adults worried about the game and asked "why can't these people tell reality from fantasy?")

So that's a specific thing. Capital-E Evil specifically encourages lowercase-e evil.

But Capital-G Good, from what this fic shows, does literally nothing to encourage lowercase-g good. Someone who is good is someone who is a victim. Kindness gets you abused, tortured, and murdered. Mercy is just giving your enemies another chance to stab you in the back. As far as I can tell, there's not a single Good person with the possible exceptions of the Duke and Duchess de la Valliere (and surprisingly, Kirche, who's at least sympathetic towards her sibling), who shows a smidgeon of goodness. As someone said earlier in the thread, the forces of Good in this story are basically an RPG party. It reminds me of, well, when I was 10 and playing AD&D, and the whole point of the detect evil and know alignment spells were to identify legitimate targets. Because I was young and stupid (and because dungeon modules written up as encounter sets for adults are bad at explaining roleplaying nuance, particularly in a game system that was still about 80% small-unit tactics simulator grown out of a fantasy wargame), I legitimately thought that part of the job of being a hero in the fantasy setting was to discover that the village blacksmith was secretly Neutral Evil and kill him before he could harm the fellow villagers before setting off to raid the orcs. And that's the logic that, apparently, this whole story runs on. Von Zerbst is obviously a parody of those kind of heroes, but Tabitha, Guiche, and Monmon are no better, just more murdery and stealy and less rapey. Eleanore probably tested out all her magical potions by kidnapping peasant children and dissecting their puppies and kittens alive in front of their eyes, just because Brimirism says that nobles can do whatever they want to their peasants and therefore it's perfectly Good behavior. The fact that she fell to Evil in approximately five seconds.

Now, part of it is the fact that we're hanging out with our protagonists, but even among adherents of Evil we've seen elements of genuine good behavior. Love of family, loyalty to country, sympathy for a friend's hurts. It's entirely possible that Jessica, an actual from-Hell demon, might be the most genuinely lowercase-g good person in the story, even though she'd never even consider siding with actual Good. And, of course, all this is miserably hopeless, because as we've seen, Evil is inherently evil and draws people in that direction. And attempting to "opt out" of the whole Good/Evil dynamic is merely siding with Evil (with a side of staggering delusion).

...God, I'm getting depressed now. :( I mean, is that actually the point of the story? To illustrate the miserable hopelessness of all these people while indulging in Warhammer 40K-esque black comedy? I feel like with this chapter we've crossed some kind of rubicon, where it's going to be overtly all downhill from here instead of implicitly all downhill from here...
I'd counter Jessica being the most undercase "g" good. She perpetuates her feud with her cousins, even in neutral settings, and is a rather mean drunk. Guiche and Catt are far more likely candidates for the title. As the former does often express desires to take far more selfless jobs (but is outvoted by his party), offers to marry his girlfriend in order to spare her from an arranged marriage despite his family losing out on the deal, and is overall genuinely heroic. Catt, whilst being a bloodsucking monster, is still nice and good and advises Louise to try to be the sort of person who tries and fails to be good rather than the sort that doesn't try at all, and has rescued at least 4 maidens from various threats and made sure they had steady employment by my count. Hell the worst things she does, aside from all the killing and eating people which doesn't really count, is the few seductions she's had to do to help Louise. That and apparently trying to build a maid-based harem.
 
...God, I'm getting depressed now. :( I mean, is that actually the point of the story? To illustrate the miserable hopelessness of all these people while indulging in Warhammer 40K-esque black comedy? I feel like with this chapter we've crossed some kind of rubicon, where it's going to be overtly all downhill from here instead of implicitly all downhill from here...
Insightful, interesting, and depressing.

I wonder if EarthScorpion actually intended this or it's an accident.

Either way, now I just want someone to punch those cosmic-alignments and tell them to shove off and stop bothering everyone.
 
Pity... really hoped for Louise guilt slapping Elanoire with just WHO is the vampire and WHY she became one... not this... mess...

Starting to doubt her intelligence...

And then just sooooo fast fall to gauntlets mind control... beside this being possible sign of Ealoire already being evil or ridiculously weak willed or something...
honestly, all sentient magical items should be destroyed, be they Good, good, Evil or evil. Unless item is serving as trap for soul to prevent resurrection, in which case different containment is needed.

Don't bother targeting for finger with The Ring hand with gauntlet, go straight for neck. Lost cause.
 
The fact that minions were created by an Overlord who was wielding the Gauntlet, the runes appeared without any input on Louise's part, and the runes just so happened to disappear in the moment the Gauntlet abandoned her for a better wielder suggest otherwise.

But even if the runes aren't a function of the Gauntlet, why exactly wouldn't an ancient powerful artifact of Evil Magic be capable of interfering with them? It has knowledge of Dispel, as Marzipan discovered.
Found additional evidence the Gauntlet is tied to the runes in some way. This is what happens when Louise puts it on for the first time:
A deep bellow sounded out, like a horn from the depths, only the sound emanated from her hand. All around the room, minions ceased with their looting, pillaging, and trying on desecrated bodies as hats, and flocked to her. The strange gem-like thing on the back of the armour flared green, and the runes branding the minions burned brighter for a moment, making the creatures flinch in pain, before the light died down to the same yellow-pink as her eyes.
 
Insightful, interesting, and depressing.

I wonder if EarthScorpion actually intended this or it's an accident.

Either way, now I just want someone to punch those cosmic-alignments and tell them to shove off and stop bothering everyone.

I have to think it's intentional, as it's doing a great job of really sticking it to the concept of these abstract and oversimplified RPG alignment systems that function more like political sides than moral guides.

I mean, in our real world, moral relativism is easy to apply to all sides, since we don't have an active external force defining right and wrong, good and evil for us (even if you're devoutly religious, most people don't see a divine presence in day-to-day events, though that kind of magical realism was present in a lot of medieval theology (trial by combat, for example, or trial by water...basically medieval Christians spent way too much time ignoring Jesus's admonition to not put the Lord your God to the test). We find "goodness" in cultural definitions and in religious and philosophical principles, and those things fight one another more often than not, but we muddle through.

But in a fantasy universe where good and evil are represented by active forces, ones that by the internal definitions of the setting are a good Good and an evil Evil, then good and evil shouldn't be relative. Yes, people themselves can wobble between the extremes, but Good should be good and Evil should be evil and they should each exert a strong controlling force in that direction.

Yet what EarthScorpion has done in this fic is to depict the reality of generic fantasy RPGs in their miserable reality, where Evil is an active, corrupting force and Good is...absent. Or corrupt. Or weak. Or confines its interventions to forceful, military-type aid. So often, what we call Good is operating strictly on an "us vs. them" scale, while Evil remains, well, evil. We often don't actively notice that because in pen-and-paper RPGs, we're the sociopathic heroes doing what we like and well-aware that we're interacting with fantasy. In alignment-system videogames, doing "good" just means "killing enough Evil to outweigh all our sins" and in videogame RPGs without freedom of action the protagonists actually are good people so that the failings of the universal structure don't resonate. (It's also, I think, what generates a lot of "the Power of Humanity" type of storylines, like in Lunar: Eternal Blue which was then retconned into the remake of the first game, Lunar: Silver Star Story).

And ES has done a great job of confronting that kind of illogic directly, and showing us just how effed up it really is. It's just...really kind of despair-inducing.
 
People keep talking about Eleanore being swayed to evil or corrupted by the Gauntlet. I'd like to argue that she was already very, very, evil. 3 pieces of evidence.
Eleanore may be more Delusional Evil than Louise. Louise was at least appalled when Henrietta threw around blood magic and had to talk herself through much of what she did and still feel guilty or uncertain about parts.

Eleanore successfully cast a dark healing spell she'd "studied so she would know how to counter" on her first try, and chose to cast said spell despite (unlike Louise) presumably having other options available that she could have used.

The difference is, Louise is trying to be/become Good despite the Evil stuff while Eleanore probably isn't worried because she already believes herself to be Good.

And Dezo Penguin, I wish it were possible to Like/Hug/Insightful your post all at the same time, because that's a great breakdown.
 
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God I wonder when this gets to Karin's ears about the absolute mess her family is if she will have a genuine moment of self reflection and ask herself where she went wrong.
 
Pity... really hoped for Louise guilt slapping Elanoire with just WHO is the vampire and WHY she became one... not this... mess...
Pretty sure they both know the who and why, I'm thinking E is being a bit circumspect because she's not sure how much L knows (given C is C) and there's no need to air the dirty laundry in a public place - sure, they're alone, but it's still a public place.
 
Pretty sure they both know the who and why, I'm thinking E is being a bit circumspect because she's not sure how much L knows (given C is C) and there's no need to air the dirty laundry in a public place - sure, they're alone, but it's still a public place.

More subtly (and perhaps this is giving Louise's subconscious mind too much credit for seeing through her delusional state), drawing attention to how horrible unintended consequences can happen from doing things one didn't think were too bad at the time isn't really her best argument at this point...
 
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