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Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy

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Blackout said:
Elves have a long history with Slaanesh, as their long lives, utopian lifestyles, tendency to get bored, resistance to physical mutation and proneness to obsession make them more easily susceptible to Slaanesh's temptations over the other three Chaos Gods. However, the idea that all elven souls are claimed by Slaanesh is a silly 40kism introduced in 8th edition and, cynically viewed, a preparation for the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

Elves can, have and do fall to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, their psychology, history and nature simply makes them more prone to falling to Slaanesh. Their souls are especially potent due to their long lives, their strong emotions and their magical connection, which makes them very tasty for Chaos and particularly Slaanesh, but again, for the purposes of this Quest Slaanesh has no special claim on them.

However, the fate of elven souls after death is a topic of some frustration for me. I acknowledge that the idea that they are bound to the Waystone network is mentioned in passing before 8th edition, but I also fucking hate it because it's such a clear parallel to the Eldar and their soulstones/infinity circuits, and it raises questions like "If Fanriel leads her mercenary company to an area where the waystone network doesn't extend or has been compromised, isn't she risking every elf under her command being tortured eternally by Ereth Khial or the Chaos Gods if they so much as trip and bash their head on a rock with there being nothing anyone can do about it?"

So while I'm firmly against the waystone afterlife, I don't actually know what to replace it with, since the elven death goddess is a shit and if they had no alternatives to her or Chaos I feel like elves should be way way more concerned about dying than they actually are depicted as.
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Yikes. That does sound like a conundrum. Errr... I have very little experience when it would come to designing an entire afterlife from scratch, but isn't Loec stated to steal souls from Slaanesh? I don't actually recall it being said where he took the souls to once he had stolen them, so perhaps you could do something with that? Or I could be wrong and it is stated, and I just don't know that. If so, then my bad.

I think the advice everyone gave below is much more deserving of attention. Ignore me.
 
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Blackout said:
Elves have a long history with Slaanesh, as their long lives, utopian lifestyles, tendency to get bored, resistance to physical mutation and proneness to obsession make them more easily susceptible to Slaanesh's temptations over the other three Chaos Gods. However, the idea that all elven souls are claimed by Slaanesh is a silly 40kism introduced in 8th edition and, cynically viewed, a preparation for the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

Elves can, have and do fall to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, their psychology, history and nature simply makes them more prone to falling to Slaanesh. Their souls are especially potent due to their long lives, their strong emotions and their magical connection, which makes them very tasty for Chaos and particularly Slaanesh, but again, for the purposes of this Quest Slaanesh has no special claim on them.

However, the fate of elven souls after death is a topic of some frustration for me. I acknowledge that the idea that they are bound to the Waystone network is mentioned in passing before 8th edition, but I also fucking hate it because it's such a clear parallel to the Eldar and their soulstones/infinity circuits, and it raises questions like "If Fanriel leads her mercenary company to an area where the waystone network doesn't extend or has been compromised, isn't she risking every elf under her command being tortured eternally by Ereth Khial or the Chaos Gods if they so much as trip and bash their head on a rock with there being nothing anyone can do about it?"

So while I'm firmly against the waystone afterlife, I don't actually know what to replace it with, since the elven death goddess is a shit and if they had no alternatives to her or Chaos I feel like elves should be way way more concerned about dying than they actually are depicted as.
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Use Morai-Hegg in a Morr-like role? I think that's what Boney went with when grappling with a similar question.
 
Blackout said:
Elves have a long history with Slaanesh, as their long lives, utopian lifestyles, tendency to get bored, resistance to physical mutation and proneness to obsession make them more easily susceptible to Slaanesh's temptations over the other three Chaos Gods. However, the idea that all elven souls are claimed by Slaanesh is a silly 40kism introduced in 8th edition and, cynically viewed, a preparation for the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

Elves can, have and do fall to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, their psychology, history and nature simply makes them more prone to falling to Slaanesh. Their souls are especially potent due to their long lives, their strong emotions and their magical connection, which makes them very tasty for Chaos and particularly Slaanesh, but again, for the purposes of this Quest Slaanesh has no special claim on them.

However, the fate of elven souls after death is a topic of some frustration for me. I acknowledge that the idea that they are bound to the Waystone network is mentioned in passing before 8th edition, but I also fucking hate it because it's such a clear parallel to the Eldar and their soulstones/infinity circuits, and it raises questions like "If Fanriel leads her mercenary company to an area where the waystone network doesn't extend or has been compromised, isn't she risking every elf under her command being tortured eternally by Ereth Khial or the Chaos Gods if they so much as trip and bash their head on a rock with there being nothing anyone can do about it?"

So while I'm firmly against the waystone afterlife, I don't actually know what to replace it with, since the elven death goddess is a shit and if they had no alternatives to her or Chaos I feel like elves should be way way more concerned about dying than they actually are depicted as.
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I'm cautiously optimistic about Ereth Khial and Asuryans kid Nethu stepping in and cutting a deal with Morai-heg to sub let a less shitty high elven afterlife. If I were writing it Slaanesh and Ereth Khial would both be existential threats of differing and opposed natures with plenty of room in the middle for other gods to win souls. The Lady of Brettonia has her own afterlife she's running in the "green land" why couldn't other gods have sectioned off backrooms of the immaterium?
 
Way I figure it, it is your quest and your canon, and as such, you don't necessarily have to use just the Pale Queen, cause she's garbage. Personally, perhaps ironically given the whole questions/uncertainties between the Elven Pantheon and the Gods of humanity and such, I reversed a bit of stuff from the latter for the former. In which I mean that we all know that Morr is the general God of the Dead for the Empire, but somewhere down the line I vaguely remembered being told that while there is Morr's Realm for the majority of souls, the other Gods had their own sorta afterlives as well. Like Ulric's Halls or something? A place for the especially devout Ulricans to end up in, a wintery Valhalla expy, and the same for Sigmar. Tome of Salvation has that one Ritual where you can call upon quasi-Saints of said Gods, or more weird interpretations like a huge twin-tailed comet, but still, there is an idea somewhere in there of spirits/souls of the devoted being kept/held by their Gods.

And given the sheer length of time the Elven Pantheon has been around, plus the intricate interweaving of Elves and their Gods on so many intrinsic levels...why couldn't there be other Godly Realms for the Elven Pantheon? In DoDA, I've got the Cloud Palaces of Asuryan, the Bloody Fields of Khaine, etc. But you could also use Morai-Heg as a more generally neutral entity who takes the souls for herself, potentially, given that she's explicitly meant to be separate from the rest of the Pantheon(s). She is, after all, Fate.
 
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Blackout said:
So while I'm firmly against the waystone afterlife, I don't actually know what to replace it with, since the elven death goddess is a shit and if they had no alternatives to her or Chaos I feel like elves should be way way more concerned about dying than they actually are depicted as.
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I think that the most reasonable way to square the circle is just get rid of the 'death' in that death goddess. Make is so that every elf goes to an afterlife that most fits the way they lived and died, it would fit with elves mantling their gods. Hell they could even join their patron in death as a kind of gestalt if you prefer.

Edit: Ninja'd by @torroar
 
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Blackout said:
Elves have a long history with Slaanesh, as their long lives, utopian lifestyles, tendency to get bored, resistance to physical mutation and proneness to obsession make them more easily susceptible to Slaanesh's temptations over the other three Chaos Gods. However, the idea that all elven souls are claimed by Slaanesh is a silly 40kism introduced in 8th edition and, cynically viewed, a preparation for the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

Elves can, have and do fall to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, their psychology, history and nature simply makes them more prone to falling to Slaanesh. Their souls are especially potent due to their long lives, their strong emotions and their magical connection, which makes them very tasty for Chaos and particularly Slaanesh, but again, for the purposes of this Quest Slaanesh has no special claim on them.

However, the fate of elven souls after death is a topic of some frustration for me. I acknowledge that the idea that they are bound to the Waystone network is mentioned in passing before 8th edition, but I also fucking hate it because it's such a clear parallel to the Eldar and their soulstones/infinity circuits, and it raises questions like "If Fanriel leads her mercenary company to an area where the waystone network doesn't extend or has been compromised, isn't she risking every elf under her command being tortured eternally by Ereth Khial or the Chaos Gods if they so much as trip and bash their head on a rock with there being nothing anyone can do about it?"

So while I'm firmly against the waystone afterlife, I don't actually know what to replace it with, since the elven death goddess is a shit and if they had no alternatives to her or Chaos I feel like elves should be way way more concerned about dying than they actually are depicted as.
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Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea. Not only do you have to keep close to Waystones in order not to end up in Hell or obliterated, but also when said Waystone is destroyed, that leaves the souls bound to it suffer the fate, that they were trying to avoid. No wonder they have an inclination to protect the network.
 
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Sertorius said:
Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea. Not only do you have to keep close to Waystones in order not to end up in Hell or obliterated, but also when said Waystone is destroyed, that leaves the souls bound to it suffer the fate, that they were trying to avoid. No wonder they have an inclination to protect the network.
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It's not a bad idea by any means in a vacuum... but personally, and I imagine this is the same for Blackout, it makes the elves in WHF way less unique as it's blatantly a copy of the Eldar from 40K.

Also, getting sidetracked, but does the existence of Widowmaker mean that the Elven Gods did once roam the world? Since Widowmaker is supposedly a shard of Khaine's sword, or something along those lines. Or is that just what the elves think, and it's not actually confirmed?
 
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One of the things that always bothered me about the whole soul-Waystone aka 40K Eldar blah blah Slaanesh overcorrection connection...the Waystones are already, like, incredibly important. They're vital to the functioning of the world and its continued existence, helping keep the powers of Chaos wash over the world entirely, channeling things into the Vortex to preserve all of Mallus itself. Caledor Dragontamer and his cadre are constantly eternally chanting and spellcasting to make sure the world doesn't go kaput, that an endless wave of daemons and Chaos Wastes don't expand everywhere and Chaosify the world. Isn't that wild? That such important unique somewhat irreplacable nodules for this world-preserving network are speckled here and there and the Asur have to try and protect them as a result, that they channel and intensify magic around them, that when broken become their antithesis and pool Dhar and are prizes for unscrupulous spellcasters of Chaotic/Necromantic/Greenskin/Etc. to use for their own horrible purposes? Meaning another reason to protect them?

It just seemed...that they already were so important anyway?
 
*nods sagely*

Indeed, and if you pile too many important things on them it dilutes the possibility of finding/making other stuff (but plausible, that's important) stuff in the setting because something amazing is reduced to just being the result of Waystones.

It can work, certainly, but it doesn't need to and it can be much more interesting.
 
It's actually canonical and explicitly noted that individual Elven Gods can save the souls of specific elves (with Loec doing so most often, presumably due to the 40k reference there), so as others suggest, I see absolutely no reason not to just sort of reverse the rarity there and say that most Elves are taken up by one God or another as befits their particular life and talents with only those unlucky, unpleasant, or forsaken enough not to impress any other God going to either Ereth Khial or Slaanesh.
 
torroar said:
One of the things that always bothered me about the whole soul-Waystone aka 40K Eldar blah blah Slaanesh overcorrection connection...the Waystones are already, like, incredibly important. They're vital to the functioning of the world and its continued existence, helping keep the powers of Chaos wash over the world entirely, channeling things into the Vortex to preserve all of Mallus itself. Caledor Dragontamer and his cadre are constantly eternally chanting and spellcasting to make sure the world doesn't go kaput, that an endless wave of daemons and Chaos Wastes don't expand everywhere and Chaosify the world. Isn't that wild? That such important unique somewhat irreplacable nodules for this world-preserving network are speckled here and there and the Asur have to try and protect them as a result, that they channel and intensify magic around them, that when broken become their antithesis and pool Dhar and are prizes for unscrupulous spellcasters of Chaotic/Necromantic/Greenskin/Etc. to use for their own horrible purposes? Meaning another reason to protect them?

It just seemed...that they already were so important anyway?
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Meanwhile the lizardmen are sitting there like "who let these elf souls in our geomantic web?"
 
Honestly, from what I know of GW, the main reason for such an addition to the lore was just to fuck over the elves more. The Waystones are already super important, so I don't see why that would need to be added.
 
Constenanto said:
It's not a bad idea by any means in a vacuum... but personally, and I imagine this is the same for Blackout, it makes the elves in WHF way less unique as it's blatantly a copy of the Eldar from 40K.
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Perhaps, but that really doesn't bother me at all, but hey, it's just me. The classic races, like Elves and Dwarfs are hardly unique, no matter the setting.
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
It's actually canonical and explicitly noted that individual Elven Gods can save the souls of specific elves (with Loec doing so most often, presumably due to the 40k reference there), so as others suggest, I see absolutely no reason not to just sort of reverse the rarity there and say that most Elves are taken up by one God or another as befits their particular life and talents with only those unlucky, unpleasant, or forsaken enough not to impress any other God going to either Ereth Khial or Slaanesh.
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Nah, that takes away from the crapsack world setting. Elven afterlife is specifically made to be unpleasant (probably to balance out their long, eventful lives) and I would like it to stay that way. The gods can snatch away a few Elves they like? Sure, I can go with that, but I'd rather it to be an exception and not the rule.
 
Constenanto said:
Yikes. That does sound like a conundrum. Errr... I have very little experience when it would come to designing an entire afterlife from scratch, but isn't Loec stated to steal souls from Slaanesh? I don't actually recall it being said where he took the souls to once he had stolen them, so perhaps you could do something with that? Or I could be wrong and it is stated, and I just don't know that. If so, then my bad.
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Even that's a 40kism because Loec's counterpart, Cegorach, steals the souls of his servants, the Harlequins, from Slaanesh's grip, which is why they don't need soulstones. As such I'm loathe to use it because I hate elves being depicted as fantasy eldar.

Sertorius said:
Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea. Not only do you have to keep close to said Waystones in order not to end up in Hell or obliterated, but also when said Waystone is destroyed, that leaves the souls bound to it suffer the fate, that they were trying to avoid. No wonder they have an inclination to protect the network.
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The thing is that they already have plenty of reason to protect the waystone network, because if it goes down Ulthuan sinks beneath the waves and the world is drowned by an infinite tide of daemons. It also being their afterlife adds nothing, and only limits their options for acting outside the coverage of the network and creates moral quandaries that are antithetical to the very purpose of this Quest.

torroar said:
One of the things that always bothered me about the whole soul-Waystone aka 40K Eldar blah blah Slaanesh overcorrection connection...the Waystones are already, like, incredibly important. They're vital to the functioning of the world and its continued existence, helping keep the powers of Chaos wash over the world entirely, channeling things into the Vortex to preserve all of Mallus itself. Caledor Dragontamer and his cadre are constantly eternally chanting and spellcasting to make sure the world doesn't go kaput, that an endless wave of daemons and Chaos Wastes don't expand everywhere and Chaosify the world. Isn't that wild? That such important unique somewhat irreplacable nodules for this world-preserving network are speckled here and there and the Asur have to try and protect them as a result, that they channel and intensify magic around them, that when broken become their antithesis and pool Dhar and are prizes for unscrupulous spellcasters of Chaotic/Necromantic/Greenskin/Etc. to use for their own horrible purposes? Meaning another reason to protect them?

It just seemed...that they already were so important anyway?
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's not like they need more reason to protect them, and it also adds the question of "Well, what did elves do before Caledor?"

Mopman43 said:
Use Morai-Hegg in a Morr-like role? I think that's what Boney went with when grappling with a similar question.
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Awetduck said:
I'm cautiously optimistic about Ereth Khial and Asuryans kid Nethu stepping in and cutting a deal with Morai-heg to sub let a less shitty high elven afterlife. If I were writing it Slaanesh and Ereth Khial would both be existential threats of differing and opposed natures with plenty of room in the middle for other gods to win souls. The Lady of Brettonia has her own afterlife she's running in the "green land" why couldn't other gods have sectioned off backrooms of the immaterium?
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torroar said:
Way I figure it, it is your quest and your canon, and as such, you don't necessarily have to use just the Pale Queen, cause she's garbage. Personally, perhaps ironically given the whole questions/uncertainties between the Elven Pantheon and the Gods of humanity and such, I reversed a bit of stuff from the latter for the former. In which I mean that we all know that Morr is the general God of the Dead for the Empire, but somewhere down the line I vaguely remembered being told that while there is Morr's Realm for the majority of souls, the other Gods had their own sorta afterlives as well. Like Ulric's Halls or something? A place for the especially devout Ulricans to end up in, a wintery Valhalla expy, and the same for Sigmar. Tome of Salvation has that one Ritual where you can call upon quasi-Saints of said Gods, or more weird interpretations like a huge twin-tailed comet, but still, there is an idea somewhere in there of spirits/souls of the devoted being kept/held by their Gods.

And given the sheer length of time the Elven Pantheon has been around, plus the intricate interweaving of Elves and their Gods on so many intrinsic levels...why couldn't there be other Godly Realms for the Elven Pantheon? In DoDA, I've got the Cloud Palaces of Asuryan, the Bloody Fields of Khaine, etc. But you could also use Morai-Heg as a more generally neutral entity who takes the souls for herself, potentially, given that she's explicitly meant to be separate from the rest of the Pantheon(s). She is, after all, Fate.
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DragonParadox said:
I think that the most reasonable way to square the circle is just get rid of the 'death' in that death goddess. Make is so that every elf goes to an afterlife that most fits the way they lived and died, it would fit with elves mantling their gods. Hell they could even join their patron in death as a kind of gestalt if you prefer.

Edit: Ninja'd by @torroar
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
It's actually canonical and explicitly noted that individual Elven Gods can save the souls of specific elves (with Loec doing so most often, presumably due to the 40k reference there), so as others suggest, I see absolutely no reason not to just sort of reverse the rarity there and say that most Elves are taken up by one God or another as befits their particular life and talents with only those unlucky, unpleasant, or forsaken enough not to impress any other God going to either Ereth Khial or Slaanesh.
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Hmm, those are all good points, thanks guys.

The one alternative I had considered was having Asuryan run the elven afterlife (pretty much entirely inspired by his title as the Emperor of Heavens), possibly extending his domain of rebirth to cover the idea of reincarnation. But now that you guys mention it I do like the idea of Morai-Heg's domain being extended to the afterlife, since her role as the goddess of fate has kind of been infringed upon by Lileath being the goddess of prophecy and Asuryan's whole thing with so many of his blessings taking the shape of perceiving the future and/or fate.

But I also like the idea of each god having their own afterlife, since it would give each of the three elven factions something of their own based on which gods they revere the most, while still maintaining a sense of splintered unity. One of the reasons I dislike the waystone afterlife is that it left the Dark Elves with just "Pray to Ereth Khial and hope she uses a light touch when torturing you", and while I can see Malekith not caring I feel like he would've had a much harder time keeping the Dark Elves under him if he was expressly keeping them from being able to have an afterlife that wasn't eternal torture.

I'll have to think about it, probably write an Informational threadmark about what I end up going with, but I'm leaning towards every god having their own afterlife, with Morai-Heg as the neutral ground between them.
 
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More than that, I can't see Witch elves and Death Hags not wanting to go to Khaine after their death. They are the brides of Khaine, body and soul. Would they be so faithful if they knew they would never be in his presence after dying in his name? I don't see it.
 
The idea of each Elven God having an afterlife sounds really interesting, but how would it work with the whole 'Elves worship multiple Gods'?
 
Constenanto said:
The idea of each Elven God having an afterlife sounds really interesting, but how would it work with the whole 'Elves worship multiple Gods'?
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The ones dedicated to a specific god get scooped by the patron they seek to emulate, and the broader base of "I will embrace the god who is appropriate for the context in which I find myself" worshippers go to Asuryan?

(Also, hi, followed some friends from Divided Loyalties over here and look forward to seeing where this goes!)
 
Constenanto said:
The idea of each Elven God having an afterlife sounds really interesting, but how would it work with the whole 'Elves worship multiple Gods'?
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Valkyrie only choose you for Valhalla if you 1.die in combat 2.with a weapon in your hand 3.fighting a worthy opponent.
I don't want to watch Vaul and Hoeth get into a fight over a blind elven warrior scholar (but also I do)
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Presumably, with most Elves (priests and specific devotees aside) not being at all sure which God's afterlife they'll wind up in. Which sounds interesting, actually.
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Maybe it could be that all the Gods can give you access to their afterlife but everyone has access to Morai-Heg's afterlife acting as middle ground and central hub so anyone can meet with past friends and family. So for example, Fanriel could spend as much time as she wants studying in Hoeth's library and conversing with dead scholars or what not in Hoeth's afterlife if she's accepted by him, but she can also decide to take a trip to Morai-Heg's to meet with her Dad and fallen comrades.
 
Constenanto said:
The idea of each Elven God having an afterlife sounds really interesting, but how would it work with the whole 'Elves worship multiple Gods'?
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They worship them as a pantheon, but they might still have a preference towards some of them, like Fanriel towards Hoeth and Lileath.

And if they don't have a preference or multiple gods are claiming a soul, that's where Morai-Heg would come in.

picklepikkl said:
(Also, hi, followed some friends from Divided Loyalties over here and look forward to seeing where this goes!)
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Welcome onboard, it seems like there's quite a bit of crossover in the voterbase.
 
Considering we have implications that not all human Souls go to Morr with the most devoted of the other human Gods followers going to them in the Warp/Realm of Chaos then I can certainly see people like the Phoenix Guard being the domain of Asuryan before any other for example.
 
Constenanto said:
Also, getting sidetracked, but does the existence of Widowmaker mean that the Elven Gods did once roam the world? Since Widowmaker is supposedly a shard of Khaine's sword, or something along those lines. Or is that just what the elves think, and it's not actually confirmed?
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Well in End Times stated the Elven Pantheon were all mortals before becoming Gods like Sigmar.

But End Times is well, End Times.

Though Gods walking the earth has the issue with the material world being generally inhospitable to aethyric entities. Even when the Polar Gates collapse and the world was utterly soak in magic the gods didn't come down.
 
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