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Meow Quest (PMMM Catgirl!Homura)

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Zam said:
The body isn't hers though, it was a created one. Admittedly my knowledge of how... Catholics? Regard the soul, magic and ripping of one's soul out is not particularly up to date so I could be wrong. Not sure why they'd deal with it better than anyone else though.


Ah I see, that I can understand more easily, still not entirely sure said religion would be all to enthused about messing with one's soul for magic though.
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We (Christians in general) wouldn't be enthused (or even okay with it)...but it's not really a serious change to our self. It's still upsetting, but we're still who were were before...the body's something we own, not an inherent part of our being. Our distress would probably be over the question of what happens to a Soul inside a Soul Gem...does it still pass on? Are we alive or dead? Those kinds of questions...they're distressing, but they're ultimately just another problem to deal with. Figure out what's going on, figure out if we just made a deal with the Adversary or if Kyubey is just a sufficiently advanced alien, try to make our peace with our new lives and our new state of being...that kind of thing. Ultimately not all that different from what we normally go through.

From a Japanese perspective, however...it's like you're no longer the same person. You've been ripped in half and turned into something unnatural. They're not just facing another issue...they're no longer themselves. It goes beyond violation or mutilation, almost...think of it like being mindraped into changing your beliefs. You were inherently altered, and you can't really say you're you anymore, even though you still see yourself in the mirror. I'd imagine it's a horrific feeling.
 
Higure said:
We (Christians in general) wouldn't be enthused (or even okay with it)...but it's not really a serious change to our self. It's still upsetting, but we're still who were were before...the body's something we own, not an inherent part of our being. Our distress would probably be over the question of what happens to a Soul inside a Soul Gem...does it still pass on? Are we alive or dead? Those kinds of questions...they're distressing, but they're ultimately just another problem to deal with. Figure out what's going on, figure out if we just made a deal with the Adversary or if Kyubey is just a sufficiently advanced alien, try to make our peace with our new lives and our new state of being...that kind of thing. Ultimately not all that different from what we normally go through.

From a Japanese perspective, however...it's like you're no longer the same person. You've been ripped in half and turned into something unnatural. They're not just facing another issue...they're no longer themselves. It goes beyond violation or mutilation, almost...think of it like being mindraped into changing your beliefs. You were inherently altered, and you can't really say you're you anymore, even though you still see yourself in the mirror. I'd imagine it's a horrific feeling.
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I see, that's a rather interesting perspective, thanks for the info. As an aside, what is it specifically that makes you feel the culture of Japan and or the spiritual beliefs lead to such thinking,I have an idea, but I've on;y recently started investing myself in researching such beliefs for world building purposes elsewhere and the philosophy of the soul has not come up in such a manner.
 
Higure said:
We (Christians in general) wouldn't be enthused (or even okay with it)...but it's not really a serious change to our self. It's still upsetting, but we're still who were were before...the body's something we own, not an inherent part of our being. Our distress would probably be over the question of what happens to a Soul inside a Soul Gem...does it still pass on? Are we alive or dead? Those kinds of questions...they're distressing, but they're ultimately just another problem to deal with. Figure out what's going on, figure out if we just made a deal with the Adversary or if Kyubey is just a sufficiently advanced alien, try to make our peace with our new lives and our new state of being...that kind of thing. Ultimately not all that different from what we normally go through.
sic self, if memorieshorn of cl
From a Japanese perspective, however...it's like you're no longer the same person. You've been ripped in half and turned into something unnatural. They're not just facing another issue...they're no longer themselves. It goes beyond violation or mutilation, almost...think of it like being mindraped into changing your beliefs. You were inherently altered, and you can't really say you're you anymore, even though you still see yourself in the mirror. I'd imagine it's a horrific feeling.
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Wait... does this mean Japanese have not the same concept of an immortal soul we ( as Abrahamite faith holders or at least culturally that) have´? That they do not believe in a reincarnation of the same basic self, if shorn of clear memories? If so, it would explain some puzzling things tn "inu-Yasha" about Kikyo and Kagome better...
 
SailorMidgard said:
Wait... does this mean Japanese have not the same concept of an immortal soul we ( as Abrahamite faith holders or at least culturally that) have´? That they do not believe in a reincarnation of the same basic self, if shorn of clear memories? If so, it would explain some puzzling things tn "inu-Yasha" about Kikyo and Kagome better...
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I imagine some of that depends on where you look and who you ask but lots of cultures have vastly different takes on the concept of a soul to those who grew up around or believing in the Abrahamic faith. Can't comment much on Japan specifically though, I know a recurring belief in Shinto is tat everything from rocks to plants to people and even houses have a spirit/kami but not sure if that ties in effectively here.
 
Zam said:
I imagine some of that depends on where you look and who you ask but lots of cultures have vastly different takes on the concept of a soul to those who grew up around or believing in the Abrahamic faith. Can't comment much on Japan specifically though, I know a recurring belief in Shinto is tat everything from rocks to plants to people and even houses have a spirit/kami but not sure if that ties in effectively here.
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Oh, I am an old hand at that , from the "Anges" and "loas de tete" of haiti to the manifold spritual bodies and souls of old egypt- I am just curious what Higure seems to imply with the ripping apart of the soul by the soulgemming of it...
 
SailorMidgard said:
Oh, I am an old hand at that , from the "Anges" and "loas de tete" of haiti to the manifold spritual bodies and souls of old egypt- I am just curious what Higure seems to imply with the ripping apart of the soul by the soulgemming of it...
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Mmm, it's hard to give a good explanation. I'd say it's akin to removing your brain or your heart, but that wouldn't have the same effect.
I suppose it'd help if I knew more about how Japanese culture view ghosts and the afterlife, as opposed to the West.
 
SailorMidgard said:
Oh, I am an old hand at that , from the "Anges" and "loas de tete" of haiti to the manifold spritual bodies and souls of old egypt- I am just curious what Higure seems to imply with the ripping apart of the soul by the soulgemming of it...
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Honestly, I may be off...I have a very loose understanding of it all. My suspicion is that a person's reincarnation would be looked at as something close to a spiritual ancestor, rather than as the same person (thus, Kagome and Kikyo's conflicting natures). So, "Kikyo's Soul" would be an immortal existence that was at different times part of "Kikyo" and "Kagome." Kikyo and Kagome's differing bodies and lives, however, mean they are distinct existences. From a western perspective, however, you would say that "Kikyo's Soul" is the person. Kagome and Kikyo are just two different bodies with differing memories, and their behavioral differences are something akin to the differences to a person before and after amnesia...the self is unchanged, but it's experession differs due to changes in the physical medium.

Of course, like I say, I'm no expert, so I'm probably misunderstanding the Japanese persepective to some degree or another, and trying to apply the western interpretation to a reincarnation scenario is obviously difficult.
 
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    • [X] Just enjoy it.
    Red girl Kyouko is giving you a bath! Why would you want to do anything other than just enjoy it?
    ...
    Human tongue a bit wet, though.

    Before you can ask to give her a cat tongue, though, she stops and sets to down. Aww, why?
    She reaches over and opens up the cup, sniffing the contents before shoveling the contents into her mouth.
    Oh, she's eating. You're not hungry yet, though, so you sit patiently, grooming yourself. She'll be done soon.

    After a while, she puts down the cup, and sighs, leaning back on the couch. You look to her. Petting? Bath?

    Her ears are drooping, and she frowns, whining, "I want Mami to come back. When is Mami coming back? She left me."

    You understand. You want Pink girl to come back too!
    She stands up and walks towards the door, and you follow her. You know what she's going to do! You've done it before, too!

    "Mami," she calls out at the door, "Mami!"

    You mewl at the door. Pink girl!

    She calls. You mew.
    She calls. You mew.
    She calls. You mew.
    She calls. You mew.
    She calls. You mew.
    She calls. You mew.
    She calls. You mew.

    This goes on for several minutes.

    Eventually, she gives up and walks slowly back into the living room, sad. You follow her.

    Looking around, she fixates on the sun beams coming from the window. Naturally gravitating to them, she curls up on the floor in the sunlight, sighing contently before purring.

    Yay, sun bath! You pad near her and also curl up. This is nice.
    ...
    You feel something on your collar. What is this? You try and scratch it off.

    A small little silver thing pops off and suddenly grows big! It lands on the carpet. It's a big silver circle with three lumps on it! Also pretty.
    Shiny.

    [] Too much nice sun bath to care.
    [] New thing to sit on. Sit on it.
    [] Write in...
     
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    • Higure said:
    Honestly, I may be off...I have a very loose understanding of it all. My suspicion is that a person's reincarnation would be looked at as something close to a spiritual ancestor, rather than as the same person (thus, Kagome and Kikyo's conflicting natures). So, "Kikyo's Soul" would be an immortal existence that was at different times part of "Kikyo" and "Kagome." Kikyo and Kagome's differing bodies and lives, however, mean they are distinct existences. From a western perspective, however, you would say that "Kikyo's Soul" is the person. Kagome and Kikyo are just two different bodies with differing memories, and their behavioral differences are something akin to the differences to a person before and after amnesia...the self is unchanged, but it's experession differs due to changes in the physical medium.

    Of course, like I say, I'm no expert, so I'm probably misunderstanding the Japanese persepective to some degree or another, and trying to apply the western interpretation to a reincarnation scenario is obviously difficult.
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    Perhaps this has to do with the fact that Buddhism (the reincarnation ideas source in japan and china) sees the soul as a part of the universe only BELIEVING itself to be a single being - totally diffrent from ancestor worship or our ideas about the soul. Your take rather explains the confusing things about the "Inu-Yasha" situation rather well, but is not so helpful for Shinto... The only thing I have there is that Shintoists generally seem to see dead bodies and things as unclean/polluting/dangerous...
     
    Also, holy crap, we did quite a number on Kyoko's mind. It is dangerously close to mind raping her (mods, will edit to less intense language if that was a problem). Not quite there yet, being in that zone it would be like evangaleon angel level shit, or forced witch-out shit, but still WAY closer than we should ever be.


    ...I sort of feel sick about that...:(

    EDIT: made all the worse that Amura is too young to really realize what she did, and Kyoko is too screwed up right now to realize something is very wrong.
     
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    [X] New thing to sit on. Sit on it.

    SailorMidgard said:
    Perhaps this has to do with the fact that Buddhism (the reincarnation ideas source in japan and china) sees the soul as a part of the universe only BELIEVING itself to be a single being - totally diffrent from ancestor worship or our ideas about the soul. Your take rather explains the confusing things about the "Inu-Yasha" situation rather well, but is not so helpful for Shinto... The only thing I have there is that Shintoists generally seem to see dead bodies and things as unclean/polluting/dangerous...
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    Hmm...true. Like I said, I'm not terribly knowledgeable. The aversion might just be due to disease and such...a rather reasonable aversion that's become cultural...but recalling the story of Izanami makes me think otherwise...

    That would help explain Sayaka's issue though...if there's a powerful stigma attached to dead corpses, then it would make sense for her to be traumatized by the idea of being a "zombie." The thought of being an unclean thing, and trying to fall in love...physically touching or kissing someone you care for...yes, that could definitely create that kind of issue.

    Zam said:
    I see, that's a rather interesting perspective, thanks for the info. As an aside, what is it specifically that makes you feel the culture of Japan and or the spiritual beliefs lead to such thinking,I have an idea, but I've on;y recently started investing myself in researching such beliefs for world building purposes elsewhere and the philosophy of the soul has not come up in such a manner.
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    ...I'm actually not sure. It's a very hard mindset for me to relate to. I have a weak attachment to my body, even for a westerner. I adore the thing...it serves me well, has good aesthetic potential, and is phyiscally adept enough for me to get along...I could do with a higher metabolism, among other things, but I'm over all very satisfied with it.

    Ultimately, though, it's...just my host. Wonderful, and I adore it, but I don't really self-identify by it much. Which I probably should...balance of the three aspects and all that.
     
    techsy730 said:
    Also, holy crap, we did quite a number on Kyoko's mind. It is dangerously close to mind raping her (mods, will edit to less intense language if that was a problem). Not quite there yet (EDIT: being in that zone it would be like evangaleon angel level shit, or forced witch-out shit, but still WAY closer than we should ever be)


    ...I sort of feel sick about that...:(
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    Don't. It was an accident. More importantly...her memories seem to be unaffected. She's just got some kitten instincts added on. Besides...it will be easy enough to fix, once Madoka scolds us.
     
    Higure said:
    Don't. It was an accident. More importantly...her memories seem to be unaffected. She's just got some kitten instincts added on. Besides...it will be easy enough to fix, once Madoka scolds us.
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    Yea, you're right. But that doesn't make the implications any less disturbing...

    EDIT: In case you couldn't tell, I feel that forced, involuntary altered or damaged states of mind is one of the most personally offensive, horrible, scary, and disturbing things that can happen to a person!
     
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    techsy730 said:
    Also, holy crap, we did quite a number on Kyoko's mind. It is dangerously close to mind raping her (mods, will edit to less intense language if that was a problem). Not quite there yet, being in that zone it would be like evangaleon angel level shit, or forced witch-out shit, but still WAY closer than we should ever be.


    ...I sort of feel sick about that...:(

    EDIT: made all the worse that Amura is too young to really realize what she did, and Kyoko is too screwed up right now to realize something is very wrong.
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    Not really mindrape. We haven't altered her feelings or memories in any way, just how she expresses them (she honestly was concerned about her relationship with Mami before we did that, but now she's willing to say it out loud).
     
    Sk8torchic said:
    Is it bad that you said that and I thought of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before Mind, Body, and Soul?
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    Um...no, not at all. It's a pretty clear parallel:

    Father: Mind
    Holy Spirit: Soul
    Son: Body

    The first judges objectively and controls the process of creation, the second spiritually connects to and guides us, and the third is God's incarnation upon the Earth-his physical form.

    Obviously, it's not exactly the same, but I'm pretty sure that "God's image" had more to do with being threefold creator-beings than our actual physical shape. At least, that's my interpretation.


    techsy730 said:
    Yea, you're right. But that doesn't make the implications any less disturbing...
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    Indeed. No need to beat ourselves up over an accident, however.
     
    Higure said:
    [X] New thing to sit on. Sit on it.


    Hmm...true. Like I said, I'm not terribly knowledgeable. The aversion might just be due to disease and such...a rather reasonable aversion that's become cultural...but recalling the story of Izanami makes me think otherwise...

    That would help explain Sayaka's issue though...if there's a powerful stigma attached to dead corpses, then it would make sense for her to be traumatized by the idea of being a "zombie." The thought of being an unclean thing, and trying to fall in love...physically touching or kissing someone you care for...yes, that could definitely create that kind of issue.


    ...I'm actually not sure. It's a very hard mindset for me to relate to. I have a weak attachment to my body, even for a westerner. I adore the thing...it serves me well, has good aesthetic potential, and is phyiscally adept enough for me to get along...I could do with a higher metabolism, among other things, but I'm over all very satisfied with it.

    Ultimately, though, it's...just my host. Wonderful, and I adore it, but I don't really self-identify by it much. Which I probably should...balance of the three aspects and all that.
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    Well, the Sayaka problem is spot on, I think. If Kyouko really grewup as a pious Christian, tje lichbomb should bother, but not break her...
    And I emphatize with you Body image thing- I sometimes look into the mirror and ask my self- Is this man in the mirror really ME or just something through which I interact, really strange feeling of not-belonging there...
     
    [X] New thing to sit on. Sit on it.

    SailorMidgard said:
    Oh, I am an old hand at that , from the "Anges" and "loas de tete" of haiti to the manifold spritual bodies and souls of old egypt- I am just curious what Higure seems to imply with the ripping apart of the soul by the soulgemming of it...
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    Actually, it would be more accurate to say that the process of Soul Gemming would sound terrifying to your average Japanese Teenage Girl, because it forces some foreign mumbo-jumbo they thought as false (existence of souls, to start with) as the reality of the universe and shaking their concept of the world.

    As in, It isn't the 'ripping apart the soul' part that is pretty horrible, but the 'there are things called souls that are for real, what is happening to the world' part that is terrible to them. So that part isn't probably as shocking to Kyoko, who has a Christian idea of souls to lean on, as opposed to Sayaka who probably only has a rudimentary idea of such concepts, if she even had any.
    She had probably jumped to "Zombie!" from a combination of general Japanese Belief that the Soul only comes into the equation after death (itself a combination of Shinto and Buddhist thought), and popular culture, especially horror stories, where Souls that appear are usually dead ones. Heck, we even have a specific word for living souls; until Christianity came in, the word "soul" lied in the realm of the dead and afterlife.

    All in all, probably a typical response, from a typical Japanese Teenage Girl.

    Higure said:
    That would help explain Sayaka's issue though...if there's a powerful stigma attached to dead corpses, then it would make sense for her to be traumatized by the idea of being a "zombie." The thought of being an unclean thing, and trying to fall in love...physically touching or kissing someone you care for...yes, that could definitely create that kind of issue.
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    Yeah, that was probably a large part of her thought process too, yes.

    Higure said:
    Father: Mind
    Holy Spirit: Soul
    Son: Body

    The first judges objectively and controls the process of creation, the second spiritually connects to and guides us, and the third is God's incarnation upon the Earth-his physical form.

    Obviously, it's not exactly the same, but I'm pretty sure that "God's image" had more to do with being threefold creator-beings than our actual physical shape. At least, that's my interpretation.
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    Huh, so that is how the Holy Trinity thing works?
     
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