Mauling Snarks (Worm) (Complete)

Can we please stop arguing? Please?

Regardless of what you know, understand, or feel
SHIT LIKE THIS IS WHAT CAUSES SOME AUTHORS TO STOP WRITING.

Personally I'd rather sit back and enjoy the story and bring up things like this in a single PM. No arguing, just bringing up a point.
 
Personally, I don't get why people are getting so rabid about it. I mean, the event JUST happened in story. And the author has admitted multiple times they have several chapters already written, and likely in editing phase. Chapters which further this plot thread. In-story not even 24 hours have occurred. The fallout from Vicky's actions will be seen, just be patient. And that fallout will not just be "you're grounded and building a green house". Being grounded was interim punishment while awaiting official actions.
 
Again, Miss Millitia likely doesn't have the authority to arrest Vicky on the spot. The PRT probably doesn't either since neither group is actually a law enforcement organization. Sanctioned vigilantes are still not law enforcement officers. And the PRT is a military organization, not law enforcement. If they'd caught Vicky in the act of punching Taylor, that would be one thing. But arresting her after the fact wouldn't be within their granted powers. Thus Miss Millitia has to submit a report. Only after an arrest warrant is issued could she or the PRT detain Vicky.
Goddamn fanon.

From the Worm Cast page:
Cast (In Depth)
In exchange for government funding and legitimacy, the Protectorate has agreed to follow a special set of laws laid out for capes, to accept bureaucratic oversight and cooperate with local authorities. Works in conjunction with the PRT, the Parahuman Response Team, a police/emergency response team trained to deal with 'capes' and the fallout of their altercations. Brockton Bay's team is one of many such teams spread across North America.

The PRT is a law enforcement organisation. Says it right there. Or does 'police' mean something else to you?

And the Protectorate is almost certainly by definition deputised (unless you believe that RCB set it up differently) by the PRT to perform arrests even when there's not a PRT soldier there to do it for them.

So YES, the PRT is empowered to perform arrests. And YES, so is the Protectorate.

FFS.
 
Ooooh, quoting. Let me quote your quote!
...the Protectorate has agreed to follow a special set of laws laid out for capes...
Do you have a copy of these laws that shows that Miss Militia is in violation of them by not arresting Vicky on the spot? Or that arresting Vicky on the spot would be supported by them? Because none of those laws exist in our world, so unless someone published a list of them we don't know what they cover.
 
Goddamn fanon.

From the Worm Cast page:
Cast (In Depth)


The PRT is a law enforcement organisation. Says it right there. Or does 'police' mean something else to you?

And the Protectorate is almost certainly by definition deputised (unless you believe that RCB set it up differently) by the PRT to perform arrests even when there's not a PRT soldier there to do it for them.

So YES, the PRT is empowered to perform arrests. And YES, so is the Protectorate.

FFS.

Even with what you quoted, no the protectorate are not police. They work in conjunction with an organization which has law enforcement powers.

In exchange for government funding and legitimacy, the Protectorate has agreed to follow a special set of laws laid out for capes, to accept bureaucratic oversight and cooperate with local authorities.

This is the part that deals with the Protectorate. And it says nothing about them having full law enforcement powers. Rather it says they must follow a set of laws specific to capes and accept oversight while cooperating with local authorities. That's an important distinction. They are still vigilantes, they've just been given legitimacy in exchange for following special laws.

Works in conjunction with the PRT, the Parahuman Response Team, a police/emergency response team trained to deal with 'capes' and the fallout of their altercations. Brockton Bay's team is one of many such teams spread across North America.

Note that this is a complex sentence, but it in no way implies that the Protectorate is deputized. What it says is that the PRT, or Parahuman Response Team, is a police/emergency response team. it also says that the Protectorate work along side the PRT, not for the PRT.
 
Can we just make like Elsa and let it go until at least one more chapter is released, and we have more information? Please? The argument is going nowhere.
 
So...are we just gonna keep arguing until the next chapter comes out? I mean we get it, issues have not be resolved.

It passes the time! I think that's why these dead horses get flogged so often like this, people don't have a chapter to read and they need to fill the space with something :)

And guessing the future direction of a story on insufficient information so that you can become irate about what might happen appears to be a popular sport :D It certainly seems to happen often enough.

People, eh? It's like they all think differently or some such oddness...
 
For me, I do play devil's advocate a lot. I realize this. But bringing up points people haven't considered or pointing out how someone's "proof" actually doesn't prove what they think it does is a bit of a hobby.
 
Ooooh, quoting. Let me quote your quote!

Do you have a copy of these laws that shows that Miss Militia is in violation of them by not arresting Vicky on the spot? Or that arresting Vicky on the spot would be supported by them? Because none of those laws exist in our world, so unless someone published a list of them we don't know what they cover.
Given that what Vicky did was attempted second-degree murder by a parahuman against a member of the Wards, who are government-sponsored superheroes working in conjunction with a law enforcement body, it's certainly well within the PRT's jurisdiction to have her arrested. That is, parahuman victim, parahuman perpetrator.

The 'special set of laws laid out for capes', in context, would seem to be laws defining how Protectorate capes can act within the law, upholding the law, while still maintaining their secret identities and using their powers for good.

I'm not going to claim specific knowledge of the laws because Wildbow didn't post them anywhere, but unless you're willing to try to define how they don't parallel our laws for the most part (especially the part about arresting suspects for violent crimes) I'm going to assume they do.

You see, when you make a change to any setting as part of a fanfic, you have to be ready to deal with the knock-on effects. Canonically, PRT, Protectorate and Wards all arrested people. The assumption in the story is that they had normal arrest powers and that they arrested people for the same general things that cops arrest people for these days. Their right to arrest anyone wasn't addressed in-story because they just did it and readers accepted it.

Now, this is your story. I'm not saying any different. But if you're going to bend the setting to defend the odd behaviour of your characters, that's fine. However, it's then a good idea to keep in mind that this presupposes a wider effect. If Protectorate and/or Wards are not allowed to arrest people without PRT being there, that muzzles them considerably. (Also, I can't see Rebecca Costa-Brown setting up a system where Alexandria can't arrest people).

Likewise, there's nothing stating that Miss Militia has to arrest anyone. Except that she's shown to be a stickler for the rules, all the way through canon. And when she comes to the door, she has no idea why Vicky did what she did. It's not a hard mistake to make, writing actions for a character that are informed by knowledge that you, as the writer, have. She walked up to the house in ignorance of what was happening. What if Vicky had been Mastered? You knew she wasn't, so you didn't have Miss Militia think that, but it's entirely possible, and it would fit the situation. MM's calm approach would've been utterly wrong. Bottom line? Miss Militia was incredibly lucky, and somewhat reckless, in the way she approached the situation.

Overall? I've been enjoying the story so far. This last chapter, as you know, sat wrong with me. I've explained my reasons, in depth (to understate matters considerably). I've offered suggestions on how to fix it (without having Vicky arrested, even). Might I just say that accepting constructive criticism is actually not a bad habit to pick up?

Over to you.
 
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Let's see what happens to someone who tries to off Taylor in your story, even if it's not intentional.

If we compare the situation between Shadow Stalker and Glory Girl, I'd argue both have precedent of being too violent, even if fueled by a different motivations. The end result still was Taylor getting almost killed, so despite what led to it, I assume the PRT would act proportionately to the damage caused.

You don't critically injure someone with a punch through the face by accident, so labeling it as such just doesn't feel right...

And even if there were extenuating circumstances I don't see a reasonable way to prove them, unless Taylor herself figures out that it was the snark being a little bitch and mastering Vicky into a overpowered punch the same way Amy went into the tinker fugue.

How I see it is, that Glory Girl bough into her own name and since everyone in New Wave couldn't be trusted to reign her in, since their judgement was compromised (shouldn't they be in under M/S containment? PRT Protocols, something something), she grew up thinking she can do no wrong.

It's high time someone reigns her in before she actually kills anyone.
 
I agree that this argument has gone way beyond the point of uselessness. Can we shelve it and wait for the next update please?
 
In canon the Wards and Protectorate generally detained suspects who were in the middle of committing a crime. If there's a warrant for their arrest, the protectorate could probably bring them in as well. But the PRT or police the ones who actually arrest the criminals. What the Wards and Protectorate do would be classified as a citizen's arrest. I could detain a mugger or a murderer if I caught them in the middle of the act, and hold them (on site) until the police show up. Assuming I have the skills to detain the criminal that is. But I am not allowed to detain someone I recognized from America's Most Wanted while they're buying groceries and march them down to the police station.

Think about Armsmaster's initial introduction. He tranqs the already defeated Lung and covers him in containment foam, then calls in the PRT. He doesn't try reading Lung his rights. Actually, the PRT doesn't get shown reading people their rights either. You know them as well as I do. "You have the right to an attorney, if you can't afford one one will be provided. You have the right to remain silent, anything you say and do can and will be held against you in a court of law"... Police in the USA are required by law to read you your Miranda rights when they arrest you. Not doing so can get the officer in trouble and possibly lead to a mistrial. Yet the PRT detains villains without reading them the Miranda rights, then locks them up without a trial. The canon excuse of "trial in absentee" sits poorly with me. The trial convicts the persona, not the actual criminal. John Madman might or might not be the super criminal known as "Face Breaker", but putting "Face Breaker" on trial in advance of his capture does not and should not convict John Madman if he ever gets captured. A good lawyer could likely argue a mistrial on the grounds of the trial having no proof his client had been "Face Breaker" at the time of the trial. And a clever alibi could have John Madman to be in another location at several sightings of Face Breaker.

But I too think this is getting dragged out by people who just don't want to accept they don't know all the facts yet. I'm willing to let this lie now.
 
Actually, the PRT doesn't get shown reading people their rights either. You know them as well as I do. "You have the right to an attorney, if you can't afford one one will be provided. You have the right to remain silent, anything you say and do can and will be held against you in a court of law"... Police in the USA are required by law to read you your Miranda rights when they arrest you. Not doing so can get the officer in trouble and possibly lead to a mistrial.

TV-ism alert! As I understand it, the Miranda rights need to be read before interrogation, not at arrest time. Not entirely sure why TV shows it at arrest time all the time. So you can get arrested, thrown in lockup, get dragged out for your interrogation, and they read them to you then. Probably regardless of if they think you have heard them earlier, just to be safe.
 
TV-ism alert! As I understand it, the Miranda rights need to be read before interrogation, not at arrest time. Not entirely sure why TV shows it at arrest time all the time. So you can get arrested, thrown in lockup, get dragged out for your interrogation, and they read them to you then. Probably regardless of if they think you have heard them earlier, just to be safe.

I think it's probably because the cops in these shows usually read them their rights, then shout "It was you what done it, wasn't it!?" before even stuffing them into the back of the cop car. That counts as an interrogation :)

If they simply handcuffed them and tossed them into the vehicle without saying a word, people would end up complaining that it wasn't realistic, and was boring. You need that instant confession to advance the plot!
 
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TV-ism alert! As I understand it, the Miranda rights need to be read before interrogation, not at arrest time. Not entirely sure why TV shows it at arrest time all the time. So you can get arrested, thrown in lockup, get dragged out for your interrogation, and they read them to you then. Probably regardless of if they think you have heard them earlier, just to be safe.
I honestly didn't know that, cool.
 
It passes the time! I think that's why these dead horses get flogged so often like this, people don't have a chapter to read and they need to fill the space with something :)

And guessing the future direction of a story on insufficient information so that you can become irate about what might happen appears to be a popular sport :D It certainly seems to happen often enough.

People, eh? It's like they all think differently or some such oddness...
I know right? It's like gosh, why can't you all have the same thought processes? It's not only Odd but truly Strange. Also if it's a sport, who's currently winning, I need some one to tally the score!
 
TV-ism alert! As I understand it, the Miranda rights need to be read before interrogation, not at arrest time. Not entirely sure why TV shows it at arrest time all the time. So you can get arrested, thrown in lockup, get dragged out for your interrogation, and they read them to you then. Probably regardless of if they think you have heard them earlier, just to be safe.

*does some research*

Huh, the Miranda warning isn't always required. And the timing isn't specified. Only that you must be given the Miranda warning after you're in custody but before you are interrogated. By reading the rights upon being arrested though (which I can attest in my area at least they tend to do) they are covered for anything the suspect says and does from that moment on.

Yes, that does mean that Miss Militia wasn't required to read the Miranda warning to Vicky. Glory girl had not yet been arrested after all. But once she is taken into custody, if they don't read her the Miranda warning and ensure she understands it then the police or PRT can get in trouble.
 
Sooo, Vicky Punishment debacle aside, I wonder what last chapter will mean for Amy.
Broadcast Administrator gave Shaper the data about her brand new "How to make your host's brain more suited to you after you already started living in it 101" methods. BA is now officially the first House Interior Designer of Shards...
And how will Shaper, bored as it is by the monotony of Panacea's healing and only recently having its host do things , alter Amy?
Will the otherworldly siblings share this awesome data with other peers?

Now that I'm interested in knowing. Really am.

Because, will that mean that from now on, each 'redesigned' parahuman end up as a mix of its human and share self? Will there be Khepri-ish capes who won't be able to discern their selfs from their powers? Will shards start to *gasp* understand human psychology?!?! Will the broken pieces of Space Whales learn what feelings are, what morals are? Will they start to disapprove of the cycles, as they'd be required to kill all remaining humans that they may have grown fond of?
Or will the better connection only mean that now parahuman will be able to actually realize they were housing another sentience and be able to interact with it? Will Shard go "you fucking moron I'm not supposed to be used like that!" or "the fuck man, we did this a dozen times already you're a bore" to their (surprised) hosts?

Or is my mind running away with an absurd idea? Am I insane already? Who knows???
 
Think about Armsmaster's initial introduction. He tranqs the already defeated Lung and covers him in containment foam, then calls in the PRT. He doesn't try reading Lung his rights.
Actually, he secures Lung on the back of his bike and rides off with him. No foam at all.

Gestation 1.6 said:
"You get Lung?" I asked, to change the subject from the Wards. I was pretty sure that he was obligated to try and induct new heroes into either the Protectorate or the Wards, depending on their age, to promote the whole agenda of organized heroes who are accountable for their actions, and I really didn't want him to get on my case about joining.

"Lung was unconscious, beaten and battered when I arrived. I pumped him full of tranquilizers to be safe and temporarily restrained him under a steel cage I welded to the sidewalk. I'll pick him up on my way back."

Before I was all the way down the fire escape, I heard the thrum of his motorcycle, presumably carrying Lung towards a life of confinement. I could hope.
 
Because, will that mean that from now on, each 'redesigned' parahuman end up as a mix of its human and share self? Will there be Khepri-ish capes who won't be able to discern their selfs from their powers? Will shards start to *gasp* understand human psychology?!?! Will the broken pieces of Space Whales learn what feelings are, what morals are? Will they start to disapprove of the cycles, as they'd be required to kill all remaining humans that they may have grown fond of?
Most of the reason the bypass works relates to the fact that the brain is being put to rights. I see it has hijacking the initial connection parameters that help "fix" the brain from the post-connect damage and using them well after the initial connection. There is a reason Amy is able to tell that you triggered in the past 48 hours or so, but not after that.

So no snarks jailbreaking their own humans.
 
Most of the reason the bypass works relates to the fact that the brain is being put to rights. I see it has hijacking the initial connection parameters that help "fix" the brain from the post-connect damage and using them well after the initial connection. There is a reason Amy is able to tell that you triggered in the past 48 hours or so, but not after that.

So no snarks jailbreaking their own humans.
At the moment. If Taylor/Maul gets a good look at how Riley can mess with other capes' powers, Broadcast Administrator might start getting ideas.
 
Note Ack that in canon Taylor didn't verify that fact. She assumed. Also, forgot that he used a steel cage. Which was only capable of containing him because Lung was already unconscious. And didn't his tranqing Lung also lead to Lung almost dying due to the tranq suppressing his healing factor (supposedly) while there were still all sorts of various toxins in Lung's blood stream?
 
Not entirely sure why TV shows it at arrest time all the time.

A lot of people will blurt out that they did it in the back of the squad car or after getting cuffed, because it's setting in that they're in deep doo-doo. If you haven't read them their rights, you can't (reliably) use the blurting against them.
 
Note Ack that in canon Taylor didn't verify that fact. She assumed. Also, forgot that he used a steel cage. Which was only capable of containing him because Lung was already unconscious. And didn't his tranqing Lung also lead to Lung almost dying due to the tranq suppressing his healing factor (supposedly) while there were still all sorts of various toxins in Lung's blood stream?
1) Armsy wanted to bring back Lung in triumph. (Small t, not capital).
2) Why would he lie about picking him up on the way back?
3) Her bugs would've told her if Lung was still there.
4) She would have walked out on to the street, where Lung had been, in order to go home. Chapter ended there. Armsy took Lung.

A lot of people will blurt out that they did it in the back of the squad car or after getting cuffed, because it's setting in that they're in deep doo-doo. If you haven't read them their rights, you can't (reliably) use the blurting against them.
Most usually they go, "I didn't mean to do it."

Armsy didn't read Lung his rights because he was unconscious as fuck.

Also, Lung was Birdcage bound. What's he gonna incriminate himself with to make matters worse?

Also, yes. Lung's system was just about handling the massive overdose of toxins after the beating by Bitch's dogs. Armsmaster's tranq managed to suppress Lung's regen enough for the toxins to start taking effect.

And he blamed it on Taylor. Because he's a glory hound who didn't think things through.
 
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