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Mami's Maisonette: Madoka Magica Megathread
- Thread starter UbeOne
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- Megathread
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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That has always been what we've been saying.We're not talking about Homura, we're talking about Madoka, who you do not see in every loop, because we're not shown every loop. You cannot use data you do not have as data points.
No, not really. Like... Picture reality as a tower of jenga blocks. What Madokami did wasn't taking the whole tower and changing it, it was shifting some blocks at the very bottom, which affected the way all the higher blocks were balanced.
Madoka never made a wish that fucked with the fundamentals of the universe before the final timeline, or if she did, her power was insufficient to pull it off.
Such as what?
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Madokami herself says so.
Yeah. I failed to understand that. It still disagrees with stuff like, Kyuubey saying that your powerlevel depends on your wish, and again the ending, but it makes more sense.
And the fact that Homura is still looping means that Madoka did not stop her which means that Madoka neither killed Homura along with the entire Universe, nor did she prevent Homura from leaving, which means that there was not enough power on Madoka's part there. So I have all the data I need.
She destroyed multiple Universes. You can't get away from that.
Which is exactly my point. If your hypothesis were true, it would mean that in every single timeline after the first (well, only the second as it would only happen once, except that if it didn't, despite the fact that it's completely impossible for it not to, it would be guaranteed every time) Madoka would make a wish, and because she did not spend enough of her potential on her wish to alter reality, she'd have enough potential left over to alter reality with her left over generic magical powers and she would fix the setting. Every single time. The fact that she didn't means that your hypothesis is wrong. (And again, if it were true, that ending would not have been written)
I'm not far into Wraith Arc myself yet, but from what Aura Twilight says, she pulls divine intervention all the time. Most commonly clearing grief. And if you call that her wish powers, that would make her a magical girl. And that ability isn't what she wished for anyway.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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you have no data.
No, that's not true, and I have no idea where the fuck you get that idea.
She rebooted multiple universes, not destroyed.
And, like, the whole point is that that's not actually at all impressive when you're working at the fundamental level her wish affected.
She's not a magical girl because magical girls are physically extant. Madokami is a concept.
And yes, that's her wish magic, because it's related to her wish and certainly not something other MGs can do.
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Madoka is an known lier in fact, she is the only person we see in the show outright lie so her word is not canon
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UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
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When was this?Madoka is an known lier in fact, she is the only person we see in the show outright lie so her word in not canon
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Durning Homura flashback episode showing the third timeline Homura asks if Madoka has any more grief seeds, she shakes her head in an accepted negative manner meaning no, she then latter uses an seed on Homura and ask her to go back in time and save her from being foolish.
The Seed is a Lie
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Here is the time were Madoka lies and is shown to lie.
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
Is there any news about the next movie yet?
LostDeviljho et al. VS. Sereg
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Yes, I do. Homura is alive. That means that Madoka did not vaporise her at a subatomic level a nanosecond after wishing. She was still looping, which means that Madoka did not stop her from looping. That means that other timeline Madokas were complete weaklings.
You yourself said that a magical girl who makes a smaller wish spends less of her power on her wish and wish magic and more of her power is allocated to her other abilities. If final timeline Mdoka is able to alter the Universe, then if she made a smaller wish, more of her power would go into her other abilities, meaning she'd be able to alter the Universe. It's simple addition. It doesn't matter how you break it down, the total stays the same. If the total doesn't stay the same, your hypothesis is disproven.
Tell that to Kyuubey.
Impressive compared to what? No other magical girl comes close to doing something of that level. And again, I said "affected". However you justify it, the fact that she affected all of that doesn't change.
Says who? Where in canon does someone define magical girls in such a way that it excludes Madokami? Your personal definitions aren't canon.
She also wields a bow. Yes. Even as Madokami. Unless you want to say that that's her wish magic. You can go ahead and claim that every single wish Madoka made has "bow creation" as part of its wish magic if you want to look ridiculous. Of course, the very fact that Madokami has wish magic proves she's a magical girl as they're the only ones with wish magic in the first place. Unless you classify what witches do as wish magic. But witches are what magical girls turn into just like we're shown that it's what Madokami turns into.
Madoka is an known lier in fact, she is the only person we see in the show outright lie so her word is not canon
Learn about character roles. Madokami is acting as an exposition dispenser to the audience at that point. As such, her words are infallible. Claiming she's lying is like claiming that the entire series is an unseen character's dream. Doubting what the narrative tells you t that extent is completely pointless and means you have no business at all declaring what is canon.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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- She never did that.
- Didn't stop homura from looping =/= complete weakling.
Normal magical girl abilities aren't enough to alter the universe to that degree no matter how much power you pour into them. They're simply not focused enough.
We have an out-of-universe viewpoint of the event, and thus are more knowledgeable of the event than someone with a in-universe viewpoint on one side or the other of the event.
There was no subatomic vaporization involved anywhere.
Impressive compared to what you're trying to make it seem like. Flicking the ignition to turn a car on is a lot less effort than getting out and pushing, even if they both affect the car's movement.
Neither are yours. But seriously, Madokami doesn't have any of the qualifiers for being a magical girl other than magic, and that's because she is literally composed of magic, which normal magical girl's aren't.
...point.
Madokami is her wish magic. That's literally all she's composed of. She has no physical form. She has no history. She has no existence other than a magical force that prevents witches from happening.
Do you classify Witches as Magical Girl's, then? Because Madokami is no more a magical girl than a witch is, she simply went in a different direction.
Like, the whole point of madokami is that she ascended to become something other, something more than a magical girl.
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It's far easier than what she did do. In any event, she didn't need to. She just needed to kill Homura, which she failed to do. Even the timeline before canon failed that.
Compared to Madokami? Yes, those are equal.
Them not being focused just makes it easier to do that. Because they're versatile. As such, if they stop getting closer to achieving that, that means you've stopped adding more power.
No. There is retroactive existence erasal, which is far more powerful. Did the Universe used to exist? Yes. Does the same Universe exist now? No. Therefore, the Universe was destroyed. The method is irrelevant.
I don't care how much effort is required. Just that the car moves.
The burden of proof is on you. Besides, I've pointed out the weapon summoning.
Again, her bow isn't her wish magic. Is talking to Homura her wish magic? Is giving Homura ribbons her wish magic? Is appearing to Tatsuya her wish magic? This statement is littered with holes.
I suppose I would, yes. And Madokami is a magical girl the same way that a butterfly can be the same species as a caterpillar.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
So I had an interesting thought.
Based on Kyubey's words, we can assume that emotions are rare, if not outright unheard of, in the universe in general. And considering that the Madoka-verse has interstellar travel and biological immortality while humanity has only existed for ~200.000 years, it is likely a relatively new development.
Meaning that, from the viewpoint of your average alien, the plot of Rebellion becomes the traditional "Amoral scientists meddle with forces they do not understand in search of power, and the world is screwed as a result."
Only with the forces in question literally being the power of love.
I do not have words for how much I like this.
Based on Kyubey's words, we can assume that emotions are rare, if not outright unheard of, in the universe in general. And considering that the Madoka-verse has interstellar travel and biological immortality while humanity has only existed for ~200.000 years, it is likely a relatively new development.
Meaning that, from the viewpoint of your average alien, the plot of Rebellion becomes the traditional "Amoral scientists meddle with forces they do not understand in search of power, and the world is screwed as a result."
Only with the forces in question literally being the power of love.
I do not have words for how much I like this.
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
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Unfortunately, it's the fucked-up yandere brand of love.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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Why the fuck would she ever do that?
They are not equal. 1 will never equal 31, no matter what you compare it to.
No, it makes it harder because you need focus to achieve changes like that.
It was not erasal, it was change. they are two very different things.
Well there's the flaw in your reasoning. When talking about the strength of something, the amount of effort required to do a given feat is very important.
For one, she lacks a soul gem, and thus cannot be a magical girl.
In order: related to, related to, not actually something she does.
But a butterfly isn't a caterpillar. It may have once been, but no longer.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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Emotions aren't rare, species that are 100% emotional are.
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ah this is sadly not true they are both integers and thus = in that way.
If a character is known to lie on seance then I must have secondary prof for another source that what the character says is true, otherwise I can claim that the character is lying, specially if I can say why the character is lying, which I can and will if you want to know.
you need hugs.
Sereg you do know that Madoka stopped Homura's looping not because she was all powerful but because she removed herself from all existence, thus Homura could not go back to meet her again because by existential means they never meet in the first place, the fact that Homura remembers Madoka so clearly is a sign that Madoka is weak cause she couldn't even wipe Homura's memory which going your reasoning means Madoka cant do such a thing in the first place, and all memory removal done to everyone else was a byproduct of her wish and not something she can do herself. And if she cant do something she could never do it in the first place, unless of course you decide to switch ideas and claim that she could but just chooses not to then we can claim that she was = but just never choose to do what did in canon before she chooses to do so.
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Because she's a witch.
There are exactly three possibilities.
A: Madoka transform into a witch so powerful that she kills Homura less than a second after witching.
B: Madoka transforms into a magical girl so powerful, she solves every single problem in less than a second, and therefore would not want Homura to loop anymore, so would stop her, which she would be powerful enough to do.
C: Madoka is not powerful enough to do those things and is thus an utter weakling compared to Madokami.
But both are equal to "small" when compared to two hundred googleplex. Which is the equivalent of what we're doing here.
No. It makes it easier because you have no restrictions. It means they have effectively infinite powers. So, they effectively have an infinite number of ways to achieve absolutely anything.
It was not erasal, it was change. they are two very different things.
Not when the alternative is "completely incapable of doing the feat at all".
False. We see her Soul Gem.
Related to and is are not the same thing. Also, you are claiming that someone both has no magical powers and does have magical powers. Calling it Tatsuya's power is a contradiction.
They are both lepdoptera though, which is the relevant thing here.
If a character is acting as a source of exposition, the author is telling you that they are speaking the truth.
Sereg you do know that Madoka stopped Homura's looping not because she was all powerful but because she removed herself from all existence, thus Homura could not go back to meet her again because by existential means they never meet in the first place, the fact that Homura remembers Madoka so clearly is a sign that Madoka is weak cause she couldn't even wipe Homura's memory which going your reasoning means Madoka cant do such a thing in the first place, and all memory removal done to everyone else was a byproduct of her wish and not something she can do herself. And if she cant do something she could never do it in the first place, unless of course you decide to switch ideas and claim that she could but just chooses not to then we can claim that she was = but just never choose to do what did in canon before she chooses to do so.
I explained that earlier. Madoka chose not to erase Homura's memory. It's clearly shown to be within her power. However, it is impossible for Madoka to fix everything and then willingly allow Homura to carry on looping, thinking that Madoka has not fixed the problem. As such, Homura looping is proof that every previous iteration of Madoka was far too weak.
For goodness sake, the previous timeline it would take her ten whole days to destroy a single planet. That's completely pathetic.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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Except not even Madokami was that fast, Sereg.
Sereg, just because you can do more things does not mean you can do any given specific thing.
It's not a binary scale.Where. Because Soul gems are, by definition, a physical manifestation of the magical girl's soul.
Guess what Madokami conspicuously lacks.
Madokami's wish powers are very strong and varied. All of the things you listed are aspects of fulfilling her wish, and thus fall under the umbrella of her wish.
No it's not?
Magical Girl's are not an order, ffs.
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Sereg I think you need to re watch the last episode in Madoka Magica, Cause Madoka final soul gem in the last timeline is as big as an building as well as turned into a witch, that was then later killed by Madoka so no.
:lol
D: Homura loops before Madoka Witch out
E: Homura Kills Madoka before she witches out
F:Madoka is unaware that Homura looping when she becomes a Magical girl.
G:Madoka dies before making a Wish
Are all very possible things that happens.
Power means little when one does not know how to do something, after all one could start a fire, one could accidentally destroy the universe when doing so at Madoka's power levels.
power does not mean you know how to do what you think she can do.Sereg, You seem to think that Madoka's witch is in any way shape or form is going all out.
Madoka's speech to Homura.
Now the thing is, the whole I can see everything of all of time and space is utter BS with the whole "I don't know when but I will see you again". Also this whole I can see everything is funny cause there is a bloodly movie were this is not the case. Also the whole I can be everywhere at once is funny with the whole sorry I got to go to the others now. Also Madoka states that she is unsure weather or not Homura will remember her after this point in time, as she does now.
Also...
Madoka's saying "Homura" sounds a lot like 'Homura?' Which means she really doesn't know why Homura is doing whats she's doing. And really didn't see whats coming next.
The whole
I know everything That Madoka said to Homura was Madoka trying to make her friend happy.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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Sereg somehow got the (ridiculous) idea that Madoka actually is omniscient and totes planned for everything that happened ever.Madoka's speech to Homura.
Now the thing is, the whole I can see everything of all of time and space is utter BS with the whole "I don't know when but I will see you again". Also this whole I can see everything is funny cause there is a bloodly movie were this is not the case. Also the whole I can be everywhere at once is funny with the whole sorry I got to go to the others now. Also Madoka states that she is unsure weather or not Homura will remember her after this point in time, as she does now.
Also...
Madoka's saying "Homura" sounds a lot like 'Homura?' Which means she really doesn't know why Homura is doing whats she's doing. And really didn't see whats coming next.
The whole
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The thing is I call BS for If Madoka Knew what would happen beforehand and wanted it to happen then neither Sayaka, or Nagisa would have been surprised at what happened in Rebellion due to the fact that they're said to have all of Madoka's memories while doing this job and as such should have known everything that Madoka knows, unless of course if someone can give a good reason for them to be outright lying then that theory is false.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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Sereg: Madoka didn't actually give them all her memories, obviously.
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Why not? if the plan is perfect then their is no need not to share it with my loyal servants who I brought up into heaven, and if they would disagree with it then surely I could convince them to do as I ask.
Edit: I just saw this and cant believe I missed it.
umm if you see a Character then after the time they might have died then yes you been explicitly shown that weren't killed.
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Madoka's speed was greater than infinite. She acted retroactively. That's more than infinitely faster than what I proposed.
Being able to do more things means being able to do more things. Someone with more varied and numerous (and therefore, less focused) powers therefore has more capabilities.
There's only one that can do it at all, so yes, it is.
In the comet. Therefore, you are wrong.
Having magical power is mutually exclusive with not having magical power. So, you cannot explain things by giving non-magical beings magical abilities.
Of course. All analogies break down. They are like an organ donor.
Kyuubey says it himself.
You just said that it existed, making it completely impossible for me to be wrong.The stuff with the witch is irrelevant to the point. You saw a soul gem, therefore, she has one, therefore, statements that she doesn't are wrong.
Which means that Madoka wasn't powerful enough instantly to fix all the problems and stop her. Covered.
Which means that Madoka wasn't powerful enough instantly to fix all the problems and stop her. Covered.
Which means that Madoka wasn't powerful enough to instantly become omniscient. Covered.
I was referring to possibilities after she wished. Which we know she normally does from Homura's outburst.
Knowing how to do things is a power. Madokami had no problems using her powers. If a Madoka does not know how to use her powers, she's not powerful enough.
Memory manipulation is a power she demonstrates.
Knowing how to do things is a power. Madokami had no problems using her powers. If a Madoka does not know how to use her powers, she's not powerful enough.
Not going all out would be out of character.
Madoka's speech to Homura.
Now the thing is, the whole I can see everything of all of time and space is utter BS with the whole "I don't know when but I will see you again". Also this whole I can see everything is funny cause there is a bloodly movie were this is not the case. Also the whole I can be everywhere at once is funny with the whole sorry I got to go to the others now. Also Madoka states that she is unsure weather or not Homura will remember her after this point in time, as she does now.
Also...
Madoka's saying "Homura" sounds a lot like 'Homura?' Which means she really doesn't know why Homura is doing whats she's doing. And really didn't see whats coming next.
The whole
"I don't know when but I will see you again" -> This is the part comforting Homura. If Madoka wanted to know, she could find out instantly. This isn't just what Madoka claims, we actively see her demonstrate it. We actively see her use time travel, retroactively undo events, be in multiple places simultaneously and interact with herself. That is demonstrated to not be a lie. We see it with our own eyes.
As for Rebellion, as I've said before, the only way that Rebellion makes sense is as part of Madoka's plan which involved manipulating her own memory.
What's ridiculous is other people's denial of reality because they don't like an undeniable plot point.
Madoka has literally infinite memories. They can't have all of them. And Their minds aren't safe as Incubators have telepathic abilities. Also, as she can plan perfectly, she doesn't need them to know the dangerous details.
Which is my point. I don't need to have watched them non-stop to know they didn't die.