Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
In Modern Day Apulia. It's southeast Italy, you're "Eretria Eskhata". A larger version: https://image.ibb.co/ij5vta/Full_Map_of_Central_Med.png
Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
In Modern Day Apulia. It's southeast Italy, you're "Eretria Eskhata". A larger version: https://image.ibb.co/ij5vta/Full_Map_of_Central_Med.png
- Location
- USA
so the white territory of messapii?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
No, the orange Greek territory to the north of it.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Sooo...
...you're saying we need a hell of a gift basket,
It at least needs to have a "sorry" card on it.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Okay, so the Lucani refugees likely can't make any real use of the sheep if we set them free, not having the menfolk shepherds. Us keeping the sheep then seems the best bet, the question being then whether we compensate them for the sheep, or enslave them.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Honestly we really only have the two choices as half-measures will be inadquate for whoever we're trying to appease while still pissing off the other party. I reluctantly think we need to keep the sheep to avoid upsetting the Peuketti. King Harpos has a legitimate cause for vengeance against the Lucani and was acting as a loyal vassal so reprimanding him would bring our whole system of hegemony into disrepute. We need to be careful that he isn't trying to manipulate Eretria into a conflict primarily for his benefit but well, as I said, it's still the lesser evil.
The Lucani pouring out of the hills would be trouble but they certainly aren't going to be able to siege or sack a city yet that boasts real walls, and the Peuketti would take the brunt of their anger (exactly as planned). Stiring the Lucani up that way might also make the Peuketti more appreciative of the benefits of their subordination to Eretria as we offer power to drive away the Lucani from their fields and groves.
Just, you know, don't fight the Lucani on terrain of their choosing or select a Strategos who would let himself be ambushed by them.
The Lucani pouring out of the hills would be trouble but they certainly aren't going to be able to siege or sack a city yet that boasts real walls, and the Peuketti would take the brunt of their anger (exactly as planned). Stiring the Lucani up that way might also make the Peuketti more appreciative of the benefits of their subordination to Eretria as we offer power to drive away the Lucani from their fields and groves.
Just, you know, don't fight the Lucani on terrain of their choosing or select a Strategos who would let himself be ambushed by them.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
What is the goal here?
Because I'm not sure we can afford compensation that would actually cover "Sorry we murdered your husbands and fathers and sons and stole some of your most important worldly possessions, the livestock your lives revolve around. Later." ...so what's the point? If we think the murder of the menfolk is something the other Lucani could move past, then just send the damn sheep back - I doubt we can have our cake (get the internal morale bonus from the sacrifice) and eat it too without paying through the nose.
Alternatively, what's done is done. Go all in.
- Location
- Luton Airport
I'm sort of partial to the idea that having a bunch of quasi serfs with a burning hatred of the Peuketti might be useful.
The murders are on the Peuketti. We keep the sheep, question is just if we try and mitigate the issue somewhat by returning the non combatants with some compensation.
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Leingod
Immaculate Blooming Lotus
Agreed. Like I said, what's done is done, and we can either take the good that comes from this situation or give it up to try to ameliorate the bad, which isn't guaranteed to work even in the best-case scenario. There's no clever accounting or double-dealing that's going to make up for this, so any attempt to "take a third option" is probably going to be overwrought, unrealistic and/or suboptimal.
- Location
- Europe
*Remembers the election of Eustarchus as a Strategos*
I'm sure it'll be fine.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Miltiades the shepherd stood upon a rock and proclaimed for all to hear :
"Sheep are the gods gift to the Greeks!
For the sheep gifts us with its wool to weave, it's skin to write on, it's milk to quinch our thirst and to make cheese of, its mutton to stay our hunger and its horns and bones to carve. It is a beast intertwined with the Greeks, for while the barbaroi sought the company of pigs and cattle our great ancestors grazed flocks of this noble beast in the peloponnese, it is as much a symbol of hellens as our beards and garbs.
And is not the shepherd the exemplar of Hellenism? For he is a free man unbeholden to neither men nor nature, his flocks his subjects and his perseverance, strength and wit his means to thrive and survive. The shepherd is bold and wise, he ventures far to care for his flocks, he spear every ready to face the hardships when unknown, and his mind every willing to profit from it. None can claim the blessed of Pan lack in arte."
The renowned shepherd took a moment to catch his breath and then continued with greater vigour:
"I say that Pan has shown us his favour, despite our galling lack of respect and due deference to his August personage. He has given us a flock of this lands sheep to care for and grow rich and hearty in the process.
The Barbaroi have proven unworthy of caring for Pans flocks and the gods stripped them of thier care, We Greeks of have the chance to prove our worth as Greeks in the eyes of God's and men.
Let us not deny this gift of great Pan. Let us claim this lands flocks with Pans blessings as we did its soil and waters with Apollo & Athena!"
The shepherd then stepped down and left the assembly, for he had flocks to care for.
"Sheep are the gods gift to the Greeks!
For the sheep gifts us with its wool to weave, it's skin to write on, it's milk to quinch our thirst and to make cheese of, its mutton to stay our hunger and its horns and bones to carve. It is a beast intertwined with the Greeks, for while the barbaroi sought the company of pigs and cattle our great ancestors grazed flocks of this noble beast in the peloponnese, it is as much a symbol of hellens as our beards and garbs.
And is not the shepherd the exemplar of Hellenism? For he is a free man unbeholden to neither men nor nature, his flocks his subjects and his perseverance, strength and wit his means to thrive and survive. The shepherd is bold and wise, he ventures far to care for his flocks, he spear every ready to face the hardships when unknown, and his mind every willing to profit from it. None can claim the blessed of Pan lack in arte."
The renowned shepherd took a moment to catch his breath and then continued with greater vigour:
"I say that Pan has shown us his favour, despite our galling lack of respect and due deference to his August personage. He has given us a flock of this lands sheep to care for and grow rich and hearty in the process.
The Barbaroi have proven unworthy of caring for Pans flocks and the gods stripped them of thier care, We Greeks of have the chance to prove our worth as Greeks in the eyes of God's and men.
Let us not deny this gift of great Pan. Let us claim this lands flocks with Pans blessings as we did its soil and waters with Apollo & Athena!"
The shepherd then stepped down and left the assembly, for he had flocks to care for.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
For those without context: A while back the citizens of Eretria elected the excited patriot Eustarchus as the strategos as he promised a bold new strategy. As it turned out the roll of the dice didn't go in their direction because the army was caught in a stalemate and he was killed.
Polemarch
El Grande Elephante
- Location
- Massachusetts
So says the pious Hoplite Apollodoros
What we need to remember, is that in a certain sense those sheep are already ours. Not only in the temporal sense of possession being the first characteristic of property, but also in the sense of the dominion placed by the Divine Marriage, of the Hellenes, and us in particular, over the rest of Italy. These Lucani, even now, by their very existence deny our divine right of rule. It is only fair that as a price for their continued denial of our mandated rule, and implied irreverence for the Divine Marriage, they offer a small tax, willingly given or not.
What we need to remember, is that in a certain sense those sheep are already ours. Not only in the temporal sense of possession being the first characteristic of property, but also in the sense of the dominion placed by the Divine Marriage, of the Hellenes, and us in particular, over the rest of Italy. These Lucani, even now, by their very existence deny our divine right of rule. It is only fair that as a price for their continued denial of our mandated rule, and implied irreverence for the Divine Marriage, they offer a small tax, willingly given or not.
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Stealthy
Reverently Irreverent
- Location
- Roaming
Lucani are gonna be pissed no matter what. Harpos just slaughtered a village. Returning the sheep and people may make the Lucani slightly less pissed but Harpos still slaughtered a village so they'll probably still be inclined to attack. In which case we will have to respond. We may as well get some mutton and slaves out of the deal, as well as not continually thwack the Peuketii on the nose for everything they do.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
That's the flip side of it. We cannot ignore an attack on the Peuketii if we hope to yet exercise dominion over them. Allowing our vassals to be attacked would be an affront to our honor and prestige as well- an affront that we could not let go unanswered.
I'm leaning toward slaughtering the sheep and selling the Lucani into slavery. I am just uneasy; this feels like a moment of great hubris, like the Trojans taking in the great wooden horse inside the walls. Let us hope we do not share their fate.
Polemarch
El Grande Elephante
- Location
- Massachusetts
Who knows, maybe the Lucani are hiding in the sheep
- Location
- Mists of Albion
About 3,500 Eretrian Warriors, 3,500 Epulian League Warriors and perhaps 2000 Vassal Barabaroi if we stretch ourselves to the absolute limit straight out of the gate.
Eretria itself has a population of over 30,000 and that population is growing very quickly.
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- Location
- Luton Airport
We already have a massive swathe of rich agricultural land, such that we had to institute serfdom just to be able to make it at all productive - we really don't need to try and capture more.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It's a lot less than 3,500 Epulian League warriors.
- Location
- in the trash
We should make a giant wooden ram and send it to the Lucani with a "sorry" note attached. Who will lift my rock?
Serious talk though, I'm leaning towards full up enslavement and slaughtering the sheep. The damage is already done, to put it simply.
- Location
- Luton Airport
The smaller Greek colonies to the North of Eretria that we welcomed/strongarmed into a formal alliance with us, after they nearly got wiped out by the barbaroi.