- Location
- Connecticut
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Patron of the Arts will definitely be available next year. However it will not provide the same infamy reduction bonuses as if you do it this year, so in a sense it is time limited as well.
[L5R] Minor Clan Quest
- Thread starter storybookknight
- Start date
Patron of the Arts will definitely be available next year. However it will not provide the same infamy reduction bonuses as if you do it this year, so in a sense it is time limited as well.
Patron of the Arts shores up one of our weaknesses for the upcoming Winter Court by making one of our Clan's habits more respectable.
Leaving it undone means we can get attacked on that point, and I see storybookknight just beat me to this point. Nevermind.
- Location
- Connecticut
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Chicago
Thanks for the information. Is it because our reputation will already be established and thus harder to change?
I understand were you are coming from, and I do understand, as I thought I had indicated before, how it will be of use at court. However, frankly I am not all that worried about our performance at court. I don't expect us to have any great successes, but simply by virtue of our existing stats I don't expect us to overly embarrass ourselves. By the same measure since I don't expect us to be outstanding at court I want to avoid potential isolation issues. By reaching out the nobles we ensure that we will have some contacts and allies across the Empire. Furthermore, I see great long term benefits in creating these contacts. In essence my thinking is that we will be able to stumble through the initial things relatively unharmed, and should look to establishing a strong base to grow from.
- Location
- Connecticut
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That, and because because you will have much less interaction with the leadership of the Courts after this Winter Court. Remember, you're a Minor Clan, chances to interact with the leadership of Rokugan are typically few and far between.
QM's take on this - there will be challenges and risks at Winter Court no matter what you do. The main difference will be whether you survive Winter Court and focus your energies domestically, or take advantage of it, and use the connections that you make there to later improve things at home.
Both are equally valid strategies. Word of QM.
But, it will affect what sort of game this winds up being as time goes on.
- Location
- Chicago
That makes a lot of sense to me. I for one am in favor of the survival approach. I know it is hard for people to settle for what could be seen as the "lesser" option, but I think it is the better choice for now. We need to establish this clan and get it up and running. To me that sounds primarily like a domestic policy issue. I fear that trying to take advantage of the Winter Court is stretching ourselves too thin. While it is a valid strategy it will require either taking risks or sacrificing domestic options down the road.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
[X] Uncomfortable Merchants
[X] Patron of the Arts
-[X] Spend 1000 koku on it
[X] Recruit A Larger Spy Network
-[X] Spend 1000 koku on it
[X] Standardize The Equipment
[X] Inari's Blessing
[X] Boss Koibu: Water
[X] Work With Wakaba
[X] Patron of the Arts
-[X] Spend 1000 koku on it
[X] Recruit A Larger Spy Network
-[X] Spend 1000 koku on it
[X] Standardize The Equipment
[X] Inari's Blessing
[X] Boss Koibu: Water
[X] Work With Wakaba
Last edited:
- Location
- Chicago
Sorry for posting so much, but it does strike me that with Wade's vote we have a three way tie on the Fire action. Perhaps the training and equipment factions could merge? I think we have essentially the same reasoning and interests. It is simply a matter of which we think should be done first. Thus I am going to, in a moment, switch my vote to standardizing equipment. After more thought it does make sense to standardize equipment so that we can standardize training.
Man, this is a tough one. There's very few options for this turn that I wouldn't like done, yesterday at the latest. But let's see...
[X] Uncomfortable Merchants - Any disruption in the rule of a city can bring a disruption in trade, and your assumption of power from Otomo Genryu certainly qualifies. While Yu is a bit rough around the edges, he should still be more than able to convince the merchants that their businesses will remain unimpeded, and prevent them from jumping ship for more 'favorable' ports.
This seems like a way to avert what could be a lot of long-term harm.
[X] A Patron Of The Arts - Hatsuyuki believes that one of your larger obstacles to public acceptance is the Catfish Clan's public recognition and friendship with the geisha of the Flower District. Since she doesn't care to suggest that you change that in any way, the other alternative is to try to legitimize it. Allowing geisha houses to set up public theaters, music halls, and other means by which they can make their living that do not involve sex work could help to change the reputation of geisha from prostitutes to artisans - if low-class ones. More to the point, she says, if a samurai has a plausible excuse not to take notice of a distasteful activity, they will - and legitimizing geisha would give them that excuse.
- [X] Putting 1000 koku behind the project would allow for the change to happen much more rapidly, and could lead you to see a return on your investment as a performance industry takes hold.
I went back and forth a lot on this one, as Noble Friends is time-sensitive and potentially very valuable. Ultimately it came down to the issue that a lot of our inadvertent argument to the Emperor about why he should put us in charge of our city was about the corruption of our potential "friends." Do we really want to start getting into bed with those guys and gals? (And possibly send a notice to the politically focused Clans that we intend to play in the big leagues before we're ready to really do that?)
[X] Spy on the Departing Nobles - Just because Genryu left town doesn't mean that the corrupt Emerald Guardsmen in the city aren't going along with business as usual. Assigning her network to watch those guys would give her spy network some targets to practice on that aren't the Brotherhood, and possibly yield some tasty blackmail for when you travel to Winter Court.
On the other hand, having some intel going into the Winter Court seems like a very good idea, as much as I want to get a better spy network up and running asap.
[X] Standardize The Equipment - any kind of training program that you try to put these guys through will be worthless if you aren't training them on the equipment they're going to be using. Getting everyone armor and eku, and getting them used to using those weapons, is an important first step.
- [X] Putting a thousand koku behind this would allow you to develop much higher standards of equipment. In particular, Yu is thinking of getting the troops eku for keeping the peace and much deadlier weapons for times of war, and on making sure that your lieutenants have something better than ashigaru armor.
Another one where all three options folks are voting for seem like really good ideas. I can't say I have any strong arguments for this over the other two, but I don't have any strong arguments for the other two over this either.
[X] Inari's Blessings - Thanks to the Miya family's gift of rice, many of the city's poor are finally eating well, and singing your praises. Chouko suggests building temples to Inari to help to distribute that grain, and to turn those thoughts of mere gratitude into thoughts of gratitude and faith. She does note that this will be easiest to do early, before people become used to the extra food and to attributing that food to the government. (Requires 1000 koku)
Seems like a general good idea, and the kind of thing that looks good for a Clan to be doing.
Boss Koibu: Is just breaking ground and getting started in Wave Province. You suggest that he focus on:
[X] Water: Getting the pulse of the region, and extricating bandits before they become entrenched.
Knowledge is power. And entrenched bandits are bad!
[X] Learn the ways of Court from Hatsuyuki. You are going to be at Winter Court in six months, and acquitting yourself well there would be a great boon to your Clan. You can't help but think that her abilities to manipulate emotions would come in handy...
All of these personal options would be good things to do, but we only get one chance to make a first (and given we're a Minor Clan, possibly only) impression at the Winter Court.
[X] Uncomfortable Merchants - Any disruption in the rule of a city can bring a disruption in trade, and your assumption of power from Otomo Genryu certainly qualifies. While Yu is a bit rough around the edges, he should still be more than able to convince the merchants that their businesses will remain unimpeded, and prevent them from jumping ship for more 'favorable' ports.
This seems like a way to avert what could be a lot of long-term harm.
[X] A Patron Of The Arts - Hatsuyuki believes that one of your larger obstacles to public acceptance is the Catfish Clan's public recognition and friendship with the geisha of the Flower District. Since she doesn't care to suggest that you change that in any way, the other alternative is to try to legitimize it. Allowing geisha houses to set up public theaters, music halls, and other means by which they can make their living that do not involve sex work could help to change the reputation of geisha from prostitutes to artisans - if low-class ones. More to the point, she says, if a samurai has a plausible excuse not to take notice of a distasteful activity, they will - and legitimizing geisha would give them that excuse.
- [X] Putting 1000 koku behind the project would allow for the change to happen much more rapidly, and could lead you to see a return on your investment as a performance industry takes hold.
I went back and forth a lot on this one, as Noble Friends is time-sensitive and potentially very valuable. Ultimately it came down to the issue that a lot of our inadvertent argument to the Emperor about why he should put us in charge of our city was about the corruption of our potential "friends." Do we really want to start getting into bed with those guys and gals? (And possibly send a notice to the politically focused Clans that we intend to play in the big leagues before we're ready to really do that?)
[X] Spy on the Departing Nobles - Just because Genryu left town doesn't mean that the corrupt Emerald Guardsmen in the city aren't going along with business as usual. Assigning her network to watch those guys would give her spy network some targets to practice on that aren't the Brotherhood, and possibly yield some tasty blackmail for when you travel to Winter Court.
On the other hand, having some intel going into the Winter Court seems like a very good idea, as much as I want to get a better spy network up and running asap.
[X] Standardize The Equipment - any kind of training program that you try to put these guys through will be worthless if you aren't training them on the equipment they're going to be using. Getting everyone armor and eku, and getting them used to using those weapons, is an important first step.
- [X] Putting a thousand koku behind this would allow you to develop much higher standards of equipment. In particular, Yu is thinking of getting the troops eku for keeping the peace and much deadlier weapons for times of war, and on making sure that your lieutenants have something better than ashigaru armor.
Another one where all three options folks are voting for seem like really good ideas. I can't say I have any strong arguments for this over the other two, but I don't have any strong arguments for the other two over this either.
[X] Inari's Blessings - Thanks to the Miya family's gift of rice, many of the city's poor are finally eating well, and singing your praises. Chouko suggests building temples to Inari to help to distribute that grain, and to turn those thoughts of mere gratitude into thoughts of gratitude and faith. She does note that this will be easiest to do early, before people become used to the extra food and to attributing that food to the government. (Requires 1000 koku)
Seems like a general good idea, and the kind of thing that looks good for a Clan to be doing.
Boss Koibu: Is just breaking ground and getting started in Wave Province. You suggest that he focus on:
[X] Water: Getting the pulse of the region, and extricating bandits before they become entrenched.
Knowledge is power. And entrenched bandits are bad!
[X] Learn the ways of Court from Hatsuyuki. You are going to be at Winter Court in six months, and acquitting yourself well there would be a great boon to your Clan. You can't help but think that her abilities to manipulate emotions would come in handy...
All of these personal options would be good things to do, but we only get one chance to make a first (and given we're a Minor Clan, possibly only) impression at the Winter Court.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
- Location
- Connecticut
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To remind people that picking it is a mandatory 1000 koku expenditure.
[x] anowack
Hobbes
Berrypicker as fuck
- Location
- Magrathea
Patron of the Arts / Noble Friends seems to be a hot topic, so I thought I would weigh in with some thoughts. First of all, Noble Friends is a one-time opportunity while Patron of the Arts will be available to us next turn. Yes it will provide fewer bonuses, but Noble Friends + (weaker) Patron of the Arts is still better than just Patron of the Arts alone. It seems to me that the opportunity to lay groundwork for an extensive communication network that will allow us to monitor supply and demand among regions is too good of a deal to pass up. Yes we're going to take a beating in court on the Geisha issue, but as storybookknight said, The Winter Court is going to be a challenge either way.
On a related note, I'm not sure exactly what we plan to get out of the Winter Court. If it's going to be difficult to get anything done no matter what we do, what do you guys who want to prioritize the Winter Court expect to get out of it in return? Focusing on our domestic affairs is clearly beneficial, however success in the Winter Court is certainly not guaranteed, and it's also not clear how it will benefit us. Between a known and an unknown, the known seems like a better action to me.
On a related note, I'm not sure exactly what we plan to get out of the Winter Court. If it's going to be difficult to get anything done no matter what we do, what do you guys who want to prioritize the Winter Court expect to get out of it in return? Focusing on our domestic affairs is clearly beneficial, however success in the Winter Court is certainly not guaranteed, and it's also not clear how it will benefit us. Between a known and an unknown, the known seems like a better action to me.
Last edited:
It also costs us more - we haven't seen what next turn's Air choice is going to be. If one of them is unique, are you going to be willing to pass it up, or are you going to advocate pushing off Patron of the Arts again?
We're not going to get every choice that ever comes up. It's just not happening. Therefore completionism is a very poor reason to take a choice.
And here's the thing -
Noble Friends is about getting currency to spend at the Winter Court. If you don't even know what you'd want to buy with it, why are you asking for sacrifices to gain that currency?
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
[X]Alecti
- Location
- Chicago
I can't speak for Hobbes, but for me Noble Friends isn't really about getting material for the Winter Court. It is far more about establishing some contacts that will be of long term use. As a trade hub information about the rest of the Empire will be of great use to us. Furthermore, knowing what is going on is never bad and always useful. It is about creating opportunities we can later use. Furthermore, one should remember that true spy networks are something of a rarity in l5r with only the Scorpion and the Otomo having one. If we do choose to develop this ring of contacts into one, it would give us a rare asset. If anything the advantage at court is almost a side note to me.
Hobbes
Berrypicker as fuck
- Location
- Magrathea
I'll be honest I wasn't thinking about Noble Friends as a way to gain capital for the Winter Court but that's certainly an added bonus. I also agree with the points Platypus made, but I have some more to add. I think the way Noble Friends could help us most would be to start laying the groundwork for a large, connected clan with allies and friends all over the empire. A communication network such as offered by Noble Friends would allow us to respond to trade needs proactively by informing us of supply and demand, give us quite a bit information about goings-on to work with, and also allow us to keep tabs on what the other clans might be up to, and who might be working against us.
I have to say, while I can't predict the future I strongly suspect I will be voting for Patron next turn regardless. I don't suspect we'll see an action with as much potential as Noble Friends again for a while.
All that aside, I'm still wondering what you expect to get out of the Winter Court. What Winter Court benefits could Patron offer up that will weigh against all of the good Noble Friends will do us? Storybookknight said the Winter Court was going to be challenging and risky either way, and that both were valid strategies, so what reward are you aiming for that would counteract the risk of prioritizing the Winter Court?
Last edited:
We've currently something of a hole in our diplomatic "armor" because our clan considers prostitutes to be people.
As a new minor clan, people are going to be seeking leverage on us.
Winter Court isn't just a place where we can make alliances and connections with other clans - it's also a vector by which we can be attacked.
And if we try to build a trading empire, we'll certainly be attacked - the people who already have them aren't interested in competition.
Hobbes
Berrypicker as fuck
- Location
- Magrathea
But we already knew that was going to happen, I said as much in my first post. As the QM put it, it's a choice between surviving the Winter Court, or gaining advantage through it. Yes, if we go with Noble Friends the best plan will be to just lay low through the Winter Court and survive while focusing domestically. That's why I'm wondering what you would hope to do with advantage at the Winter Court. Let's remember that Crane has it out for us, so diplomatic maneuvering is going to be difficult at best. What you expect to gain from the Winter Court that would outweigh both the additional risk, and (in my opinion) the strong benefits from Noble Friends?
Not at this Winter Court we won't. Remember we're just barely laying the ground work now, and no one is going to call us out for asking some guards to stay pen pals even if they some how figure out we've done that. Down the line perhaps we might run into conflicts due to our expansion, but any sort of growth would be likely to incite conflict, especially diplomatic maneuvering at the Winter Court since Crane will be actively attempting to shut us down.
So as I said before, what sort of benefit do you expect to gain from prioritizing the Winter Court?
Last edited:
Making a good first impression with the clans? It's pointed out that it's rare for a minor clan to be invited, so we'll probably not get the chance again anytime soon. And first impressions tend to be persistent.
That's my guess anyway.
Absolutely would.
We're a minor clan allied to a major clan.
Our very first Winter court is the perfect time to entrap the newbie....and the departing nobles are corrupt enough that associating with them opens more attack vectors.
Welcome new boss, same as old boss.
@Wade Garrett
Votes in spoilers are missed by the count script