Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Sen is not Santsarran's son, he is a Prince of Usral. Burs is the High Ataman of Ramayan.
The Patriarch's oldest son is 15
The Patriarch's oldest son is 15
Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Naram and Sen are the sons of Stormcrown Barkaran Rab, the hereditary prince of the Autocephalate of Usral. Naram is the legitimate son by Rab's wife, and Sen is the "baseborn" son by a concubine, and they've always been in conflict as a result. Santsaran made Sen legitimate, upon which Sen took the name 'Santson,' but he does not appear to have been formally adopted, he is still the (now-legitimate) son of Stormcrown Rab. This is why his brother is so pissed right now.
- Location
- Denmark
[X] Direct our attention to undermining the old order, and reaching out to those still under its unholy yoke [Improved relations with the sects of Ohr, Melecha, As Hahayiim, Yam Soph, and the figures of Sarbadgar, the Patriarch and the Sanhedron. Preferred option of Scourge of God].
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yes but he super duper promised not to seek the throne of Usral :^)
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you can't trust someone wielding a legendary sword called the "Blackenblade" to not be ambitious, who can you even trust?
Cornuthaum
Be kind to each other.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Direct our attention to expanding the new order, and keeping pious those who purport to defend freedom. [Improved relations with Makabam, Kedesh, the Sailors Karaban, and Ma'on. Preferred option of Gunpowder Eucharist and Ravs of Labour].
(Man I was gone from this quest for personal reasons for a month and I missed a lot. Wow there was a lot of fighting in Nachivan! One in four of the Convent, dead. My heart bleeds for our fallen sisters ;_; And our fallen Brothers in the Scourge and the other parts of the HaKhofshim too, of course.)
High Ataman Buman Burs is always on the right side because he is on his own side.
(Man I was gone from this quest for personal reasons for a month and I missed a lot. Wow there was a lot of fighting in Nachivan! One in four of the Convent, dead. My heart bleeds for our fallen sisters ;_; And our fallen Brothers in the Scourge and the other parts of the HaKhofshim too, of course.)
Last edited:
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Hmmm one of our mass section in the Scourge of God wanting to ensure solidarity with the Mass Jury is smart cause we need a major armed force ally which goes beyond just continuing alliance with Sarbadgar. Especially since the Mass Jury has expanded beyond Nachivan into the Sanhedral provinces (and beyond? I kinda forgot lol). Since we, including myself, voted the popular resistance legend of Vikrag over the legend of the Mass Jury last turn this is our second chance to integrate our influence early into the Mass Jury.
Meanwhile, even if our True Confessor ally Ohr's theopolitics aren't really in line with High Confessor Melecha (Cetash alluded to it as Marxian vs Hegelian), they shared wanting to protect the time standardization Observant & Calendric Order. Albeit Ohr's gonna wanna be more radical in in implementation beyond what the likely Melecha-dominated Order (loads of bureaucrat in Nachivan, the clock & education Orders in particular, has Melecha); there's still maternity leave, break time, paid leave, retirement age, minimum working age, further work hour reduction, more methods involving the tillers & toilers to determine all of them, etc.
As Hahayiim's motivation to break the old order is related to the pretty massive concession to popular theopolitics that the Patriarchate inadvertently gave em:
This is going to be spicy, and will happen regardless on which stance we pick out of the two options at present. The rites of Vaspukaran are both the varying rights between its diverse citizens and varying regional legal codes. They're gonna evaluate all of them, and notice that singular true interpretation while keeping in mind the Amalists goal to syncretize everything (and Mystic Amalists radical theopolitical bent on that doctrine). So the conclave is practically an informal constitutional convention which will go for the reforms that failed to make it into the Midnight Bull (Abolishing Serfdom, Expansion of Flok Rite, etc) & beyond, putting a pretty major pressure to the Sanhedron.
I find it interesting our Political Iconoclast ally Makabam wants to focus on expanding the new order in the Sanhedral Axis instead of wanting to reestablish Iconoclasm in the South after their fellow Iconoclasts power base got destroyed. I also find it intriguing that Kedesh wants to focus on expanding the new order (aka go into opposition) instead of building a pretty formidable Yam Soph-Kedesh-Melecha coalition of "mainstream" schismatics, tho it's good for the rest of the less Patriarch-supported schismatics such as our own HaKofshim.
Last edited:
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
One has to understand that when a state is in as much disarray as Vaspukaran right now the differences in policies between a genuine Reformer trying to empower allies and build lasting institutions, and a Power Hungry intelligent opportunist who is giving power to warlord allies while empowering their own armies, are well practically non-existent.
Because they are often the same policies and need the same strategies. Necessitating a mailed fist within fabulously stylish velvet gloves. And lets be honest here, the difference between a Reformer and a Warlord really comes down to if they win. A Warlord is remembered as a warlord because they failed. A New Founder-Reformer is a Warlord who won the Thunderbowl they found themselves in.
We see this again and again. Cao Cao, Mao and Deng, The Three Unifiers of Japan, Caesar, Augustus, and etc, etc, etc.
So basing our strategies on whether the Patriarch and his 4 Horsemen are true reformers or Would be Warlords is effectively meaningless. They'll do the same shit for the most part.
Therefore, the only fundamental assumption we should bet on has not changed, it has and will always be what strategy will give us more power. As always, Power Flows from the Barrel of a Gun. If they are true Reformers, with power we can work with them. If they are Warlords, with power we can fight them. That's the only reliable variable for us.
This is why I want our attention on the Old Order. To keep attacking others and build up creds and connections with the shackled masses. We already have fame from saving the Capital. We pushed hard to free the Witches and the Penitents, and we tied our legend to the Mass Jury. Our power must be built on that. Reach out and attack, over and over, preach and convert. Get the millions of Witches, Penitents, and Pugilists under our banner to grow our power, and do so with the backing of the Patriarch and the Sanhedron.
Because they are often the same policies and need the same strategies. Necessitating a mailed fist within fabulously stylish velvet gloves. And lets be honest here, the difference between a Reformer and a Warlord really comes down to if they win. A Warlord is remembered as a warlord because they failed. A New Founder-Reformer is a Warlord who won the Thunderbowl they found themselves in.
We see this again and again. Cao Cao, Mao and Deng, The Three Unifiers of Japan, Caesar, Augustus, and etc, etc, etc.
So basing our strategies on whether the Patriarch and his 4 Horsemen are true reformers or Would be Warlords is effectively meaningless. They'll do the same shit for the most part.
Therefore, the only fundamental assumption we should bet on has not changed, it has and will always be what strategy will give us more power. As always, Power Flows from the Barrel of a Gun. If they are true Reformers, with power we can work with them. If they are Warlords, with power we can fight them. That's the only reliable variable for us.
This is why I want our attention on the Old Order. To keep attacking others and build up creds and connections with the shackled masses. We already have fame from saving the Capital. We pushed hard to free the Witches and the Penitents, and we tied our legend to the Mass Jury. Our power must be built on that. Reach out and attack, over and over, preach and convert. Get the millions of Witches, Penitents, and Pugilists under our banner to grow our power, and do so with the backing of the Patriarch and the Sanhedron.
Last edited:
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Btw the vote which won is the one tying our legend to the Fall of Vikrag. Although, as I've noted in my previous post, the "break the old order" option is our second chance to get our influence further into the Mass Jury early.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We're not nobodies. We're the dominant force in the Western Navel, the Sanhedron acknowledged us as their saviors, and we went in on the Bridge Oath Coalition so we have powerful friends. We're probably on the radar for every faction based in Nachivan, at their peril.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Fall of Vikrag can be reasonably argued to be the origin story of the Mass Jury what with the nuns and the common people bringing down the Fort inspiring everyone else that the Sword-Altar's face can be caved in. That's how it was presented in the update as well, so we didn't lose too much. Especially since we also have an alliance with Ma'on and Sarbadgar.
The Pale Horse themselves invoked Vikrag as a rallying cry for the Mass Jury. So our position is pretty good.
Last edited:
Cornuthaum
Be kind to each other.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Conversely: To focus solely on the old order while the new order is in its creation in a time of great upheaval is to throw away the new tools and the new levers by which to bring about the world of tomorrow Opernani Myriam bade us to seek.
It's a time of extraordinary upheaval, and keeping the coalition of those aligned with the Midnight Bull together in its spirit - and with it the Mass Jury something that can reasonably become an useful force for the good of all Vasp rather than a prize title to be fought over - is very highly advised. Especially because if you can't see a warlord era coming, with Burs's Bursite Bursitudinous Bursicle in the West, the Amalist Megablob of the North, Kutan exploding into a war as Dvarim squeezes too hard too fast and the Quite Horrible Civil War About Oblate Serfdom On The Horizon in the South, with the Patriarchate forces trying to put out too many fires in too many places all at once until they break and defect, well, I'd ask you to take another look because I can't *not* see it coming.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I think its a trade-off yes. Focusing on the New Order does mean focusing on the bonds of the Alliance yes, which is useful. But I'm not convinced its as useful as the Sect gaining more power in the current vaccum that has been created by the Midnight Bull. With millions of Witches and Penitents now free thanks in large part to us and the founders of the Mass Jury.
And focusing on the old Order has us coordinating with those founders. Sarbadgar and the Pale Horse, the Knights of As Hahayiim, and the Sanhedron. The only one that isn't included is Ma'on. But we have a strong alliance with them and will integrate them soon enough.
Its a question of time and opportunity. And this is a time of expansion. Consolidation is important, but at the current rate with the euphoria over the shared victory, the bonds of the alliance are good enough. We are a pretty big deal in the core regions, but currently have no reach elsewhere, beyond our ideology having some takers in Nesra. Take 3 turns to expand outwards by attacking the Old Order, and then with that power switch back to consolidation.
Because quite frankly if we are not expanding and taking advantage of the unchaining of Millions of Schismatics, Penitents and Witches. Others will. So Burs expanding Steedeader and refounding more Standards loyal to him. The Amalist Gigablob growing bigger and bigger and who knows what else.
For example, attacking the Old Order will probably give us an opportunity to form alliances with Nesra and the Nullifier Juries, and also gain us more political capital to preserve Metamoa as an armed force loyal to the cause of the Alliance. With secure us more territory in the core and rich territories on the coast that are ideologically aligned with us.
Last edited:
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Both options are designed to split both our allies & Nachivan Liberation players that influenced the Midnight Bull's drafting in general into two;
Break the Old Order: Ohr (HaKhofshim ally), Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar (HaKhofshim ally), Melecha, As Hahayiim, the Sanhedron (Sarbadgar's a Sanhedron Elder, Nasi Samangan approves of us).
Expand the New Order: Makabam (HaKhofshim ally), Ma'on (HaKhofshim ally), Kedesh (Akov kinda saved Elder Rachel's life).
Edit: Yam Soph wasn't involved & the Patriarch passed it but is not involved in the process.
Last edited:
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Sarbadgar is also an Hakhofshim ally, and As Hahayiim while not an ally is the most ideologically in tune with us and are allied with Sarbadgar as well. Notably, they were involved in about as many fronts of the Battle of Nachivan as the Sect was.
New Order is focused more on consolidation of gains created by the Midnight Bull, while Old Order is about exploiting the new opportunities brought by the Midnight Bull. (both do a little of both, but its about focus) Both are reasonable paths.
New Order is focused more on consolidation of gains created by the Midnight Bull, while Old Order is about exploiting the new opportunities brought by the Midnight Bull. (both do a little of both, but its about focus) Both are reasonable paths.
Last edited:
Cornuthaum
Be kind to each other.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Wrong: Yam Soph is the sect that the Pale Rider Mukbar Morsi belongs to, and are in fact the ones who helped rout the Kedarkan juries to let Amalgast ex Santsarran establish himself there to proclaim Obliteration and thus send righteous reinforcements to Nachivan (that absolutely bailed our asses out from total obliteration by the prehistoric juries.)
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah I forgot to write that he's an ally of ours, it's included now.
We're kinda majorly influenced by both Amalists & Confessors in three Fundaments:
1. Flood as Treachery (Theodicy): That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion]
2. Low Disavowal (Eschatology): High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
3. Transmigration (Apotheosis): Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
As well as two doctrines:
1. The Mosaic Principle (Tier I): The Autocephalates should be reformed [Amalist Opinion]
2. Truths of Light and Darkness (Tier I): Based on Dvorah interpreting the lesson of materialism from On Time and its Robbers by Ghadan Nasir [Drawing on the deepest layers of True Confession].
But as you'll notice edit: all 3 of Amalist & Confessor sects in the vote (Ohr, As Hahayiim, Melecha) are in the Break the Old Order option we're both advocating for
I was talking about drafting of the Midnight Bull in the post I quoted your advocacy for. Which they weren't, they were busy in Kedarkan.
Edit: HaKhofshim is proof that only Militant Pugilism can fuse Mystic Amalism and True Confession send tweet
Last edited:
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
The Universalism of Mystic Amalism
The Liberationism of Militant Pugilism
The Egalitarianism of Political Iconoclasm
The Utopianism of True Confession
By Your Powers Combined, I Am...
CAPTAIN AMALGAST!
- Pronouns
- He/They/She
You shitpost but this sort of progressive ecumenism is actually a great tack to take here.
- Location
- Classified
[X] Direct our attention to undermining the old order, and reaching out to those still under its unholy yoke [Improved relations with the sects of Ohr, Melecha, As Hahayiim, Yam Soph, and the figures of Sarbadgar, the Patriarch and the Sanhedron. Preferred option of Scourge of God].
"Ah, you think the bimetalism to be your ally? You merely adopted the silver, I was born into it, molded by it, I did not see gold until I was a man and by then it was only blinding!"
[X] Direct our attention to expanding the new order, and keeping pious those who purport to defend freedom. [Improved relations with Makabam, Kedesh, the Sailors Karaban, and Ma'on. Preferred option of Gunpowder Eucharist and Ravs of Labour].
The forces of reaction are going to keep popping up, and not immediately going all in on burning down the old order right off the bat buys us time to build strength.
Cassiemouse
Market Atheist
[X] Direct our attention to expanding the new order, and keeping pious those who purport to defend freedom. [Improved relations with Makabam, Kedesh, the Sailors Karaban, and Ma'on. Preferred option of Gunpowder Eucharist and Ravs of Labour].
- Location
- Minnesota
[X] Direct our attention to expanding the new order, and keeping pious those who purport to defend freedom. [Improved relations with Makabam, Kedesh, the Sailors Karaban, and Ma'on. Preferred option of Gunpowder Eucharist and Ravs of Labour].
Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
That's an incredibly uncharitable, and to be frank unsupported, reading of San's actions so far.
I don't know how you can read San voluntarily relinquishing his extraordinarily powerful powers of Obliteration as "a move to increase the power of the Patriarch". I don't know how you can see him approve a Conclave with power to review every single one of Vaspukaran's laws and think "what a cold, calculating mind using meager reforms to draw people to his side".
Not to mention that if Santsarran was indeed the power-hungry fake reformist you accuse him of being he probably could have brought back the Infaillible Patriarchs - he had two armies in tow, one under a man so devoted he asked to be considered a son, and the other under a lib reformer who probably wouldn't mind much of own aims are secured. But he didn't. Instead he approved bulls that incredibly strengthen the Sanhedron, an institution that he doesn't control and can't even dissolve without its own approval (something that, should I add, he could have but didn't veto).
Meanwhile Burs is clearly a self-serving cur that got San's preemptive approval for creating his own fief when San was at his most desperate (the Bull is dated to the 15th of Tislev, when Sword-Altar was busy assassinating major sect leaders). He's clearly the farthest thing from San's inner clique, he is a lesser evil that was bought off to destroy an immediate threat.
So no, it's obvious that he's a true, genuine reformist, as are most of the anti-Originalists. It's true that this alliance as it stands cannot last, and that at some point we'll want to go further than the Patriarch wants - but we're clearly not at at this point yet.
IamtooSleepy
I came here to be an ant
I feel like a lot of discussion here miss that this vote is not just - or even mainly - about who we are ailed with, but about what are we going to focus on. As in, it even said in the update that is for 3 turn and we can change the focus later. So I think the main question here is not "Do we allied with Patriarchate and the Sanhedron" but "Do we focus on front line operation against reactionary or steering politics of the revolution"