Remove ads

Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

Reader mode
Chehrazad said:
I don't really support Elevation, but this isn't all that different from many historical beliefs, including the divine right of kings in Europe and the Byzantine Empire's understanding of divine rule, or the khwarrah (sovereignty/light of God) in Iran. A bit differently of course, since usually those weren't elected, but the logic that the person you deposed as a tyrant had not really had God's blessing to rule all along is not that flimsy. In the Byzantine Empire especially, you had a kind of weird thing where the Emperor was at once a kind of almost divine, saintly being closer to God than a human, but yet one who could and should be deposed if he failed to keep his obligations to the politeia/res publica, and thus must simply not have had God's favour. Obviously, we're in the equivalent of the 19th century and kind of in the middle of a collapse of all these old norms and complex social contracts, but it's not entirely unlikely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Perhaps it is because there's a separation in my mind between someone simply approved of by God and a Prophet. "Had divine approval that was later revoked" is one thing, but "God literally talks to and guides me" is another, with later being a lot harder to deny, since guidance of God means you can hardly fail. But see that Cet has already corrected that upwards, so there's that.
 
[] Elevated to Ravhood: Vashit's righteousness has gained her the support of the people of the Ischak, which has in turn granted her greater access to the Spiral of Truth, elevating her to the position of Rav. A saint but not a prophet.

The true compromise.
 
Last edited:
Random Member said:
[] Elevated to Ravhood: Vashit's righteousness has gained her the support of the people of the Ischak, which has in turn granted her greater access to the Spiral of Truth, elevating her to the position of Rav. A saint but not a prophet.

The true compromise.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Nice try disciple but I am not allowing this with less than an hour to go, my voters need peace.
 
[] Elevated to Incarnation: Vashit's righteousness has gained her the support of the people of the Ischak, which has in turn attracted soul of original Prophet Vashti, who granted wisdom neccesary to ascend higher on Spiral of Truth, making Vashti-current Rav.

The truer compromise. :V
 
Last edited:
Elevation? Atheism! Prophecy? Apostasy that would spit on the very foundation of religion! Ravhood? Blasphemy!

Vashti, sent again by God to punish the wicked, can only be
[X] Incarnation
 
Regency said:
...this is literally already what every theocratic leader of states in the Kingdom of God, including the Patriarchs of the Kingdom of God, implements. Except you know, with aristocracy or oligarchy.

And all options except for Disavowal have "gaps" for this specter of demagogery you fearmonger Elevation solely for. Ravhood already allows for figures such as Pasan Ghadi to wield great influence that could easily turn into opportunistic demagogues (especially among ongoing revolutionary conditions), the way Incarnation could be implemented either would be done similarly to Elevation theocratic democracy in practice (in which case it meets your fear of democratic demagogery) or a repeat of Patriarchal dysfunction - Yuhwa Edition, Prophecy is straightforwardly the same model Amalgast & his predecessors rose (and not necessarily to state-ruling power! Rip Tang Goo & Amalgast are 2 out of 4/5).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, every theocratic system of rule has a problem of its leaders being hard to question. But only Elevation draws direct causation between popular support and prophethood, either through elevation or confirmation, both giving every popular leader a simple way of spiritually elevating them in the eyes of their followers and giving their followers more reason to support their leaders and their cause through any doubts or machinations of their enemies.

Other options do leave the possibility of the leader convincing their followers that they are a Rav or an reincarnated Prophet/other holy figure, but it does mean that they need to convince them and it leaves the followers more free to doubt or disagree with that possibility.
 
I'm so sick of "elevation makes every populist prophet" argument.
There are already ten thousand ways for these in power th decree themselves holy.
Why, I can make same argument for incarcarnation too: it allows anyone to cosplay as old saints and prophets, making them unquestionable!
No, that is nonsense.
 
100thlurker said:
Elevation? Atheism! Prophecy? Apostasy that would spit on the very foundation of religion! Ravhood? Blasphemy!

Vashti, sent again by God to punish the wicked, can only be
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I know this is RPing but I can't resist. On Ravhood, it has literally been an integrated part of Vaspukaran theology since it became the bedrock of the 2nd Patriarchate's revolution against the 1st. This is Orthodoxy, not even schismatic position. On Elevation, Word of QM has confirmed the inherent religiosity of every option presented, even Disavowal, by virtue of it being borne of theopolitics by a religious sect in a theocratic society (heck, theocratic alternate world). Le material factors etc etc. Prophecy became apostasy post-facto Amalgast's passing (no thanks to 1st Patriarchate), but this one makes sense to hold because HaKhofsim's operating in the bounds of "schismatic limits". Which does, as the option acknowledge, mean Elevation is also heretical (more so, obviously).

I'll be honest, even if I'll be disappointed if Elevation loses, Ravhood has good merits due to its popular support element so I'm not angry about it winning. I've argued against it mostly because Elevation has a chance. I argued for it because it earlier look like Elevation no longer has a chance & Ravhood has a chance as a compromise vote unlike Disavowal.

My temper being lit had, admittedly, little to do with Ravhood or Incarnation winning, but the "mob rule" justifications that is somehow made to be unique failing of Elevation

agumentic said:
Yes, every theocratic system of rule has a problem of its leaders being hard to question. But only Elevation draws direct causation between popular support and prophethood, either through elevation or confirmation, both giving every popular leader a simple way of spiritually elevating them in the eyes of their followers and giving their followers more reason to support their leaders and their cause through any doubts or machinations of their enemies.

Other options do leave the possibility of the leader convincing their followers that they are a Rav or an reincarnated Prophet/other holy figure, but it does mean that they need to convince them and it leaves the followers more free to doubt or disagree with that possibility.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And this is different from the process in which Prophets within an Elevation theological framework how? Who also has to go through that process to obtain material proof of their spiritual status? Heck, the explicitly-stated-by-QM theocratic democracy of Elevation has, in the option itself, the signal of aspiring prophets' precarious status in that their selection has in so far as qualifier. That's outright the opposite of uniquely disincentivizing doubt or disagreement as you've repeatedly argued it would, by providing an inherent foundation (Fundaments) to create doctrinal mechanisms for the much-adored checks & balances.
 
Shard of Victory said:
I'm so sick of "elevation makes every populist prophet" argument.
There are already ten thousand ways for these in power th decree themselves holy.
Why, I can make same argument for incarcarnation too: it allows anyone to cosplay as old saints and prophets, making them unquestionable!
No, that is nonsense.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In my eyes, the difference is that if there's an accepted doctrine of past holy figures reincarnating, the leader still has to convince the followers they are a reincarnation. But if there's an accepted doctrine of public support elevating someone to prophethood, than a popular leader already has enough to declare themselves a prophet, since they are popular and have followers. And these followers have a tangible connection/provide tangible help to the leader, meaning they have a "buy in" of sorts beyond simply following. And as is known, with a buy in, it is that much harder to doubt your past decisions and change your opinion.
 
Remove ads
Letters from the Chained and Free Vote
  • Voting
    • Double-toll, binding ring of marriage, candor and Ravhood wins.

    Scheduled vote count started by Cetashwayo on Jun 8, 2022 at 8:39 PM, finished with 242 posts and 63 votes.
    Click to expand...
     
    Last edited:
  • Voting
    • I will now implement democratic centralism and cheerlead for Ravhood :V

    Big San, vessel of holy ghost, you better damn well give Vashti that Ravhood.

    Edit:
    agumentic said:
    In my eyes, the difference is that if there's an accepted doctrine of past holy figures reincarnating, the leader still has to convince the followers they are a reincarnation. But if there's an accepted doctrine of public support elevating someone to prophethood, than a popular leader already has enough to declare themselves a prophet, since they are popular and have followers. And these followers have a tangible connection/provide tangible help to the leader, meaning they have a "buy in" of sorts beyond simply following. And as is known, with a buy in, it is that much harder to doubt your past decisions and change your opinion.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Er, I dunno if you've reread what you posted but...that's the same process with the same consequences. The process from to-be vessel for prophethood (this isn't straigthtforward reincarnation, remember? the Transmigration Fundament?) into said prophet incarnate, and for a prophetic candidate to be elected popularly is the same process of getting buy-in beyond simple following. You'd also be surprised how easy it is for that opinion shift to occur for seemingly infallible leaders, especially in the way the world of the Kingdom of God have been used to squaring opposition of theocrats & belief in their holiness or outright prophethood. Especially during the revolutionary conditions that Vasp is still undergoing.

    Edit2: No this doesn't violate demcent no sir, I'm not arguing for or against Elevation ;)
     
    Last edited:
    Regency said:
    I know this is RPing but I can't resist. On Ravhood, it has literally been an integrated part of Vaspukaran theology since it became the bedrock of the 2nd Patriarchate's revolution against the 1st. This is Orthodoxy, not even schismatic position. On Elevation, Word of QM has confirmed the inherent religiosity of every option presented, even Disavowal, by virtue of it being borne of theopolitics by a religious sect in a theocratic society (heck, theocratic alternate world). Le material factors etc etc. Prophecy became apostasy post-facto Amalgast's passing (no thanks to 1st Patriarchate), but this one makes sense to hold because HaKhofsim's operating in the bounds of "schismatic limits". Which does, as the option acknowledge, mean Elevation is also heretical (more so, obviously).
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    My good sir, you are debating a poor Yuhwan. Permit him this indulgence! :V
     
    I like to imagine this entire discussion as a ruthless, no-holds barred argument. There's at least three pugilist-style duels. Etranger and Cavalier beat each other up in the ring and their respective followers pull them back and let them recuperate so they can have a go at each other again. It's four hours past midnight. The argument is still going. Someone says "Well I guess she could be a Rav I suppose." The room is silent. Someone concedes, "well I guess she could be a Rav." People mutter. People begrudgingly nod their heads. Someone says they don't like it. Someone says it's a bit too moderate. People don't come to more blows. Still muttering and grumbling, the argument slowly breaks out. "I guess she could be a Rav, if it is that important."
     
    Shard of Victory said:
    Ravhood is good result, but I am still angry about how a lot of anti-elevation arguments were one step away from "achtualy, democracy is bad".
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Bro, modern democracies literally has a lot of writing about the dangers of the nascent waves of Populism+Personality Cults. We are literally in such an age. Its not that Democracy is bad, its Popular support is both the strength snd the weakness of democracy by its very nature and this needs to be acknowledged.

    It's not a failure to acknowledge the weakness and flaws, acknowledging, accepting them, and working with them is a strength. It's a necessary pre-condition to build or win anything of worth.

    I was literally arguing for straight-up Disavowal at one point as "Just skip the personality cult and go for actual democracy" What is Disavowal somehow "democracy is bad" now?
     
    Last edited:
    I suppose in the end centrism really is the only way forward.

    Anyways, thank you everyone for your hard-fought arguments. I appreciate that though things sometimes got heated, and I did have to intervene to prevent what I felt were miscontruals of some positions, that people remained civil.

    It is a funny example of the effect of approval voting. In the end Ravhood was a lot of people's second choices and as battle-lines heated up around Disavowal vs. Incarnation it became an obvious solution. I have to assume that the informational post yesterday also helped clarify some stuff as it gave a clearer indication as to what a Rav is and what the Six Ravs in particular did.

    No update will come tonight. Take a rest and appreciate this incredible piece:

    DocMatoi said:
    LAST SAGE STANDING​

    Art by sakura-rose12
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Guru Bluff had had always joked that whatever happened they would meet soon enough again in the World to Come. He could have never known that for so many of his friends that time would come so soon. It is by the ashes of his brothers that Guru Bluff makes his commitment that he shall not see what they have fought for perish or dissolve to either sands of time or the smoke of black-powder. That, in the end, is the spirit of the five fingers of the holy God.
     
    Last edited:
    Chehrazad said:
    I like to imagine this entire discussion as a ruthless, no-holds barred argument. There's at least three pugilist-style duels. Etranger and Cavalier beat each other up in the ring and their respective followers pull them back and let them recuperate so they can have a go at each other again. It's four hours past midnight. The argument is still going. Someone says "Well I guess she could be a Rav I suppose." The room is silent. Someone concedes, "well I guess she could be a Rav." People mutter. People begrudgingly nod their heads. Someone says they don't like it. Someone says it's a bit too moderate. People don't come to more blows. Still muttering and grumbling, the argument slowly breaks out. "I guess she could be a Rav, if it is that important."
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I cannot help but imagine the poor brothers and sisters trapped between the increasingly heated arguments just wishing for things to calm down and not result in a schism. And to not get hit in the eventual brawl.
     
    One thing I will say now that the debate is done is that although elevation has the potentiality to develop in dangerous directions, and it is a very personalist version of a democratic philosophy where you erect a particularly special person, I don't think it is inevitable that this is the case, and it flows pretty naturally from the Patriarch's own position as elected into prophethood. That is why it was proposed. If you had chosen it matters would develop from there.

    Similarily, ravhood given over to Vashti is not an endpoint but a beginning, and it's going to cause its own problems because usually Ravs are approved by the Patriarch. And if the Patriarch says yes she is a Rav, well, most Ravs since the beginning of the Second Patriarchate have been basically patron saints of some thing very harmless to the status quo, not liberator-warriors and charismatic leaders.

    There was a group of Ravs who were - the ones who founded it.
     
    Last edited:
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top