Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

Fair enough, but ultimately the big concerns of Burs and the Southern Slaver-owning Princes have the receptive populace for it and have the power for it. And they are the big concerns.

Antipatriaches exist, and a few big and powerful potential Prophets is hardly going to be too much for people to stomach "well just figure it out". This goes back to the fact that ultimately what separates Warlords and Kings, is legitimacy and success. And there are quite a few candidates who have both the softpower and the hardpower to make that play.
 
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Fair enough, but ultimately the big concerns of Burs and the Southern Slaver-owning Princes have the receptive populace for it and have the power for it. And they are the big concerns.

Antipatriaches exist, and a few big and powerful potential Prophets is hardly going to be too much for people to stomach "well just figure it out"

Yeah, but the princepriests don't need elevation to do that and it actually undermines their authority. They are high priests and choosing the Patriarch is one of their most central duties.
 
I mean if the current potential candidates have been boiled down to Burs Slayer of Origination, that's not in itself reassuring, given the previous elaboration of scarcity. Never mind the other potentials we don't know enough about yet.
 
I mean if the current potential candidates have been boiled down to Burs Slayer of Origination, that's not in itself reassuring, given the previous elaboration of scarcity. Never mind the other potentials we don't know enough about yet.

The thing about Burs is that 'Guardian', given its historical connotations is already a pretty good title, even if it hasn't quite been noticed yet :p
 
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

Can't decide on anything else tbh.
 
Look, fundamentally I think that the the existing structures of vaspukaran can only be pushed so far. The Sanhedrons are still very unrepresentative bodies, and while they have thrown away some of their class interests in the midnight bull they are going to wake up from that.

This is inevitably going to put the sect in opposition to them sooner or later. What elevation does for us is it starts building a theological justification for opposing the patriarch, and that's based af.
 
I wonder what the religious doctrines were for the original Vashti led religion? She seems like a radical that was sandpapered down over time into this symbol of goodness but the real history must be much more messy. The original Vashti likely was a rebel against Babarak but she failed. Why did she fail? Would our new doctrines have made the difference? Can the Vashti of our time be tainted by that failure now by saying she is a new incarnation of that ancient woman? Could the doctrine of Elevation prevent such a failure from happening again?
 
I wonder what the religious doctrines were for the original Vashti led religion? She seems like a radical that was sandpapered down over time into this symbol of goodness but the real history must be much more messy. The original Vashti likely was a rebel against Babarak but she failed. Why did she fail? Would our new doctrines have made the difference? Can the Vashti of our time be tainted by that failure now by saying she is a new incarnation of that ancient woman? Could the doctrine of Elevation prevent such a failure from happening again?

Unfortunately there is very little actual information here. Babarak's archaeology is a challenging subject to tackle as the Hadit Valley experienced a factually-attested civilization-ending flood when glacial lake Mutawilli situated near the Hadit source breached its ice wall and flooded down the valley.

95% of the population of the Hadit Valley died, maybe something on the line of 30-35 million people, and Babarak itself has not been found. Vashti's name has been referenced but there are very few records right before the fall because many of the surface cities were wiped away and carried downriver by a wall of water moving at about 65km/s. All that survives is the oral tradition of those spared by the flood and the written traditions of neighboring regions, who also suffered catastrophic collapses in population due to a regional cooling period caused by the wash of Mutawilli into the ocean and apocalyptic conditions in what had previously been the center of regional civilization. Vashti reappears in the oral tradition of the Vasp eventually committed as a series of folk tales and legends only centuries later, and the nearest written tradition, the Usrali one, does not re-emerge for almost one hundred years.
 
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Fundamentals of Vasparak Religion
Q: What is the basis of Vasparak religious law, and what are its basic tenets?

The Four Truths

The first basis for law, and the claimed originator, is King Sufgan, who ruled hundreds of years before Amalgast's Ascension. Uniting the Vasp princedoms, King Sufgan adopted a code of laws and introduced a religion based on the worship of the great feathered deity of the west, the Simurgh. Today, the Simurgh is understood as the first archangel, and not a god. Sufgan's Analects contain a full code for a moral and holy life, with four major truths which remain agreed upon by all in Vaspukaran, including most witches and many religions outside Vaspukaran. To disagree with the Analects, especially on the basis of atheism or heathenry, is to reject all the laws of God's Kingdom. All witches must accept the four truths to not be prosecuted and persecuted.

1. That there is a God, and He is good.
From this comes the fundamental monotheism of the Amalgastene Creed as well as the assertion of a loving God.

2. That to be moral is to live by God's law.
From this is justified theocracy, as secular law is no substitute to a law which defines itself by the divine.

3. That God's law is derived from divine revelation.
From this is reasoned that revelation, whether by a prophet or by other means, is the way by which God's law is transmitted.

4. That the King is he who erects God's law, the rites of mortal life.
That any claim to kingship must be based on the implementation of religious law, which are the rites of human life.

The Seven Tenets

Sufgan's Kingdom splintered after his death. It was destroyed by the Gushan Rohirrate, a steppe empire that sought to dominate the whole continent of Camad. But his priesthood, often hereditary, survived to hear the revelation, and adopt the teachings, of Amalgast. Amalgast's teachings are bound in the four books composed during his long reign as Patriarch, the Tessarateuch. From there, seven tenets are derived that define the boundaries of the Amalgastene Creed. All of the schisms, and orthodoxy (which called itself Sufganarot in honor of Sufgan), agree on these points, and are seen as part of the same faith, with differing interpretation. To disagree with these seven points is to invite charges of heresy or heathenry.

1. There is but one god in many forms, and Amalgast is His prophet and the prophet of God's Kingdom.
From this is allowed the existence of those who may believe in many Gods: these are just God in a disguised form.

2. Amalgast is the ultimate prophet, and no other prophets shall succeed him.
From this is barred the existence of any other prophet after Amalgast, and that attempting to claim as much is heresy.

3. The mystery of god invites progressive revelation through the spiral of truth.
From this is created the idea of the Spiral of Truth, and that God progressively reveals more of himself.

4. The spiral of truth may be unveiled by scholarly debate and the consensus of the wise.
From this is produced the justification for the priesthood, who identify themselves as the wise.

5. No soul shall hold another soul as property, or else put a price upon a human soul.
From this is created the ban on slavery and significant commercial restrictions abandoned later.

6. The kingdom of god is the universal empire of god's grace and the path to heaven.
From this comes the universal drive to convert, proselytize, and expand the Kingdom of God, and define it as the final form of human existence before the end of days.

7. Man is made in the image of god, born free and pure of sin or grace.
From this comes the idea of the soul, free will, and tabula rasa - that man is born a blank slate, and it is by good or bad laws and upbringing that he is made into a good or bad soul.

The First Patriarchate, seen either as a first tragic stage or a cosmic mistake, applied these tenets in the harshest way possible, eliminating heathens and expanding Vaspukaran with deadly crusading force in every direction. Ruled by Guardians of the Holy Ghost arguing that Amalgast could not be succeeded for he was immortal, these blood-descendents of Amalgast kept his bejeweled and dressed skeleton in the Palace of Mushad and spoke on his behalf, a permanent regency of the immortal ghost. Called Gastites, they were the major doctrine of the period. Their efforts constructed a vast empire that dominated the whole of the center of the country.

The Six Precepts

In time, however, the growing power of the melik hereditary feudal princes, crippling heathen revolts, and civil war between guardian-claimants, shattered Vaspukaran. A one-hundred year of period anarchic warfare was ended by the rise of fortress-temples of the Jurors and the Seven Ravs, famed religious scholars and holy warriors. After the end of the fighting the seventh, Rav Obrogras, fell out over the core precepts of what would become the Second Patriarchate. The remaining six Ravs promulgated the Vermilion Bull creating the Second Patriarchate, with its Patriarch, Synodic Circles, Juror Palatines, Missions, Autocephalates and Nahad Chesh. This system, despite alterations especially because of the Grand Sanhedrons, has remained shockingly unchanged for almost 450 years, a testament to its longevity and flexibility.

The term 'rav' itself has become something like saint, or the Jewish Tzadik - a person of such wisdom and grace that they may be receiving ambiguous but not direct inspiration from the divine. Much less powerful than a prophet, but still holy. The difference is that Ravs tend to show their power and holiness by honing a divine craft or scholarship.

Among the many sayings of the Ravs committed to writing in the Vermilion Commentaries which define the covenant of Vaspukaran, six precepts are the most essential.

As said by Rav Yatoni, "That the immortal soul of Amalgast, so transmigrating as to evolve revelation, passes from body to body, possessing the wisest of his faithful."
From this is derived in their commentaries the Great Synod, the Patriarch, and the doctrine of transmigration.

As said by Rav Karogen, "that the rule by blood in God's Kingdom is forever over, and those that seek its swift or slow return shall usher in a rule of blood, until they are destroyed."
From this is derived the barring of blood-inheritance in all Vasparak titles outside of the Autocephalates.

As said by Rav Hastata, "that the purpose in life is to sanctify the family, to honor God through thought and creation, and to obey the boundaries of his Kingdom."
From this is derived divisions in social status, the examination system, and the sacralization of everyday life.

As said by Rav Tologda, "that the exaltation of God, and the revelation of his mystery, shall be done by investigations mystical and scholarly, to unveil the truth of soul and body."
From this is derived scientific investigations, the division of soul and body, and ordinary revelation.

As said by Rav Zurah, "that there shall be no non-believers in the Kingdom of God, but those who deny God's word are not evil but the bewitched, in need of wisdom and not cruelty."
From this is derived witchdom and the mission system, which allows the existence of non-believers in Vaspukaran.

As said by Rav Rongen, "that peace shall rule in the land, that the strong shall not harm the weak, and God's Kingdom shall not raise its righteous arm save in a war of just defense."
From this is derived the much-mocked claim that Vaspukaran has never invaded another country except in self-defense, and the Grand Jury.

Schisms dispute some, most, or all of these precepts, or simply interpret them in ways that are displeasing to orthodox religious authority. Breaching the precepts is considered blasphemy when not covered by one of the agreements of the Grand Sanhedrons, a charge below heresy but still with considerable sentences and in the past, death.

A/N: I figured this would help current discussion.
 
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Thanks to Cetash for the excellent and helpful info-post.

I'd just like to briefly renew my call to rally behind Disavowal. The age of prophets is over, and the only just foundation for a new system is one in which authority is derived from popular mandate. Divine revelation should inspire action, not legitimize it. By disavowing the temporal power of prophets and the borrowed corpse-authority of transmigration, we undermine the means by which unaccountable leaders rule over the disempowered masses. Only through rejecting post-Amalgastine prophetic authority can we both adhere to our moral code and take moral action going forward.
 
I think with this in mind "She is a Rav" is probably our best option? It validates what she's experiencing, provides a clear theological framework for it, and is a bold staking position without the outright heresy of New Prophethood.
 
'The term 'rav' itself has become something like saint, or the Jewish Tzadik - a person of such wisdom and grace that they may be receiving ambiguous but not direct inspiration from the divine. Much less powerful than a prophet, but still holy. The difference is that Ravs tend to show their power and holiness by honing a divine craft or scholarship.'

I have added this as well, to clarify to everyone what exactly a Rav is.
 
[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].]
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].

I say to you, fellow disciples, that Vashti, in her courage and wisdom, has not won the Ischak not by some inherent, ineffable spark of greatness. No, she won it with the aid of the whole of the people! Every last peasant shouldering a rifle, every destitute low priest plying their trade, every turncoat juror - each and every one of them!

And in light of that most holy of strength, she should continue down on the path God has laid before her and continue to rally the downtrodden of Vaspukaran to her banner! The evils of Ischak are the evils of many places yet to be leveled!
 
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[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].
 
[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].
 
[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
 
Look, fundamentally I think that the the existing structures of vaspukaran can only be pushed so far. The Sanhedrons are still very unrepresentative bodies, and while they have thrown away some of their class interests in the midnight bull they are going to wake up from that.

This is inevitably going to put the sect in opposition to them sooner or later. What elevation does for us is it starts building a theological justification for opposing the patriarch, and that's based af.
Again literally every option has us building up the theological justification for opposing the Patriarch.

New Prophet directly challenge Patriarch Orthodoxy.

Ravhood forces the Patriarch to either recognize Vashti as a saint or kill her. If she's recognized, power, if she's killed martyr.

Incarnation brings the other Prophets and Ravs back into play in Theopolitics as other divine poles of power that take power from the Amalgast line.

Disavowal tells the entire system of Prophets to go fuck itself.

Elevation tells the current system to fuck off but wants to keep the Prophets.

That is the whole point and why Vashti is asking us for advice in confidence and everyone involved in this discussion is effectively sworn into secrecy. Because every answer puts us into conflict with the Orthodoxy in some fashion.
 
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[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation!
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration]
[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
 
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1. That there is a God, and He is good.
Sage Dvorah...
When we say "He is good.", are we to understand that God is male?
How does this affect the framework for the divine rites about the treatment of women?

As said by Rav Rongen, "that peace shall rule in the land, that the strong shall not harm the weak, and God's Kingdom shall not raise its righteous arm save in a war of just defense."
Rav Rongen has a clear message about the holiness of weight classifications in wrestling matches!
No offense to Belman, but you are breaking the 6th precept!
 
Sage Dvorah...
When we say "He is good.", are we to understand that God is male?
How does this affect the framework for the divine rites about the treatment of women?

DVORAH: God is omnipresent and is all genders and none. But I do suppose the default to He is something of a deficiency, especially in earlier texts...
 
Ruled by Guardians of the Holy Ghost arguing that Amalgast could not be succeeded for he was immortal, these blood-descendents of Amalgast kept his bejeweled and dressed skeleton in the Palace of Mushad and spoke on his behalf, a permanent regency of the immortal ghost.
>Burs' new additional title is Guardian
Ever more worrying, that High Ataman. Also bold af because this provides theopolitical foundation if he's ever in a position for a coup. Meanwhile, if Metamoa somehow engulfs the whole of Vaspukaran with Vashti as its prophet (new or old), he could BS a coup or subjugation as "guardianship" over her.

5. No soul shall hold another soul as property, or else put a price upon a human soul.
From this is created the ban on slavery and significant commercial restrictions abandoned later.
Oh hey I wonder which certain massive region & 1 autocephalate of Vaspukaran edit: flagrantly violates the first part of this.

4. The spiral of truth may be unveiled by scholarly debate and the consensus of the wise.
The interaction of this Tenet and the 5th above is the foundation of Pugilism; the people must strive to discover the wisdom that exists in each intrinsically equal person

As said by Rav Rongen, "that peace shall rule in the land, that the strong shall not harm the weak, and God's Kingdom shall not raise its righteous arm save in a war of just defense."
From this is derived the much-mocked claim that Vaspukaran has never invaded another country except in self-defense, and the Grand Jury.
Ah, so the 2nd Patriarchate expands through Rome-style "self-defense" conquests initiated by provocative alliance.

Rav Rongen has a clear message about the holiness of weight classifications in wrestling matches!
No offense to Belman, but you are breaking the 6th precept!
Instituting separate weight classes to prevent the Belman Thermidor
 
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[x] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
The Patriarch just staged a revolution so he could spend more time with his wife, how could inventing the concept of divorce possibly go wrong!

[x] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.

[x] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
Why bother having some peasants revolt when you can have all the peasants revolt

[x] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].
Jesus should definitely be a democratically decided position! The powers that be are already trying to Burn Jeanne d'Arc at the stake assassinate her we may as well lean into it.
 
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Jesus should definitely be a democratically decided position! The powers that be are already trying to Burn Jeanne d'Arc at the stake assassinate her we may as well lean into it.
You forgot to put the X in btw. Ignore me if you're still tentative about voting any of the prophethood response options tho.
 
[X] The Overbearing fruits of the Flagging Tree. On the overbearing abundance of children, and the men who do not help.
"I was, it seems, the only child--man or otherwise--willing to help my mother around the house. She deserved better."

[X] With Vigilance. Vashti should remain firmly enconsed in the Ischak and be wary of outsiders, for the safety of her and her movement.
"What she has taught herself, what she has become at the hands of God, what she is in the view of the many--that must not be allowed to die at the hands of some assassin's blade. What she is is precious, to me and to all the world. If I must I will journey there myself and guard her, if sense will not prevail."

[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].

"And I could no more indulge, brothers and sisters, in such political chicanery than I could stand to see her harangued by the High Priests."
 
Is there approval voting? I'd add Ravhood to my vote if so.

I saw a few people doing it, just want to be sure.
 
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