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Industrialization Quest

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Pittauro said:
Your omake probably works better, and they can can mostly work one as a sequel to the other. I didn't show the "prayer" to Dreselin after all.


another (or maybe an other?)
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Tag team omake creation? Sounds fun to me!

And thanks for catching the typo. I've had it corrected in the name of Dreselin. I didn't see any others, but it IS after 3 am here. Feel free to poke me with any others, everyone!
 
Pittauro said:
first, reread this quote:

"To make something as best you can is holy and good. Whether your profession is blacksmith or cooper or seamstress, carpenter or furniture-maker or mason, goldsmith or gemcutter or tailor... If you make something, Dreselin wants your attention and wants you to make it to the best of your skills. She'll give you inspiration and a steady hand, because she loves seeing what the minds and tools of mortal craft can create. Seek inspiration here, or ask for steady hands and solid tools."

What we're trying to do is not sand-casting, or a better farming technique, or a cheaper alcohol. Those are just means, tools to an end.

Our goal is to craft a better society, where people will have more free time, more wealth, better health, where there is less ilnesses and suffering.

In such a society more people would be alive, and better able to pursue their goals.


THAT is our true objective, the TRUE masterwork we're going to create: a (relatively more) modern and better society for everyone that lives in it.

Wouldn't that be something that Dreselin could admire?
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So we were praying for her help in Smith-craft, when we should have prayed for help in State-craft? Well, we certainly are ambitious enough for ut
 
Even though my plan didn't win, I still feel bad for not paying enough attention to the finances that I included Horse Collars. When does summer end? There's a chance of 1d-1 Profit from the mine at the end of each season.
 
Qudrim8054 said:
Well what would be a good course of action then?
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Honestly? Just ignore her for now. Niswald does not have a temple or shrine to her so we are unlikely to get issues with her followers soon. We have no way of proving her wrong even. When we get casting correct it will not be nearly as sloppy as the previous casts but it still won't produce master crafted items where you can see the care and attention the crafter put into it. That is what she wants and what we cannot provide.

In the long term looking for a god of ideas, or innovation may be best. Or going and following Ordnil. We have a connection to him and he makes us feel better. Plus as the major god of the region if we can prove our casting would help make shields and aid in defence we could use his church as a shield ourself from any angry followers of Dreselin who decide to try and hamper us in the name of their god.
 
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Eldon said:
Honestly? Just ignore her for now. Niswald does not have a temple or shrine to her so we are unlikely to get issues with her followers soon. We have no way of proving her wrong even. When we get casting correct it will not be nearly as sloppy as the previous casts but it still won't produce master crafted items where you can see the care and attention the crafter put into it. That is what she wants and what we cannot provide.

In the long term looking for a god of ideas, or innovation may be best. Or going and following Ordnil. We have a connection to him and he makes us feel better. Plus as the major god of the region if we can prove our casting would help make shields and aid in defence we could use his church as a shield ourself from any angry followers of Dreselin who decide to try and hamper us in the name of their god.
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Alternatively, launch another idea/industry more pleasing to Dreselin as a way of trying to appease her. It wouldn't be as well received as actually recanting on sand casting, but if we focus on stuff like repeated distilling and/or stuff like aging whisky in casks for vodka-brewing rather than mass production (which would be much more in line with master craftsman taking their sweet time in order to produce the best product they can) then we might end up moving back to neutral standing with the goddess.

Vodka-brewing is a pretty good option for that tactic, really - it's a luxury so producing smaller amounts of higher quality stuff can actually increase profit margins a little if the price rises high enough.
 
Eldon said:
Honestly? Just ignore her for now. Niswald does not have a temple or shrine to her so we are unlikely to get issues with her followers soon. We have no way of proving her wrong even. When we get casting correct it will not be nearly as sloppy as the previous casts but it still won't produce master crafted items where you can see the care and attention the crafter put into it. That is what she wants and what we cannot provide.

In the long term looking for a god of ideas, or innovation may be best. Or going and following Ordnil. We have a connection to him and he makes us feel better. Plus as the major god of the region if we can prove our casting would help make shields and aid in defence we could use his church as a shield ourself from any angry followers of Dreselin who decide to try and hamper us in the name of their god.
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wouldn't a cast iron shield be brittle, in addition to being ridiculously heavy?
 
IronFist said:
wouldn't a cast iron shield be brittle, in addition to being ridiculously heavy?
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True enough. I just woke up so was not fully thinking everything through but thought proses remains. Everything we make with cast iron is one thing that blacksmiths do not have to spend as long on. Meaning they can spend more time in weapons and armour.
me.me.here said:
Alternatively, launch another idea/industry more pleasing to Dreselin as a way of trying to appease her.
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That has the issue of we are still doing sacralige. I have my doubts she will be happy with us no matter what we do as long as we keep up casting. Because casting is anathema to her very concept of crafting. A good and bad deed do not equal out at zero. They both still happened and what we did seems to have offended her at the deepest level. And it will not stop at sand casting. We are trying to bring in mass production. Something that is the polar opposite of the very framework Dreselin functions under. So even if we appease her with the casting the next mass production prosses we introduce will just piss her off again. I see no reason to keep appeasing her when our methodologies are incompatible and will result conflict no matter what we do. Better to prepare for said conflict than try and postpone it.
 
me.me.here said:
Alternatively, launch another idea/industry more pleasing to Dreselin as a way of trying to appease her. It wouldn't be as well received as actually recanting on sand casting, but if we focus on stuff like repeated distilling and/or stuff like aging whisky in casks for vodka-brewing rather than mass production (which would be much more in line with master craftsman taking their sweet time in order to produce the best product they can) then we might end up moving back to neutral standing with the goddess.

Vodka-brewing is a pretty good option for that tactic, really - it's a luxury so producing smaller amounts of higher quality stuff can actually increase profit margins a little if the price rises high enough.
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Eldon said:
True enough. I just woke up so was not fully thinking everything through but thought proses remains. Everything we make with cast iron is one thing that blacksmiths do not have to spend as long on. Meaning they can spend more time in weapons and armour.

That has the issue of we are still doing sacralige. I have my doubts she will be happy with us no matter what we do as long as we keep up casting. Because casting is anathema to her very concept of crafting. A good and bad deed do not equal out at zero. They both still happened and what we did seems to have offended her at the deepest level. And it will not stop at sand casting. We are trying to bring in mass production. Something that is the polar opposite of the very framework Dreselin functions under. So even if we appease her with the casting the next mass production prosses we introduce will just piss her off again. I see no reason to keep appeasing her when our methodologies are incompatible and will result conflict no matter what we do. Better to prepare for said conflict than try and postpone it.
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Yall didn't read anything I wrote on the matter, did you?

Casting does not run counter to Dreselin's preferred type of work. It was that we sold, as crafts, utterly worthless shit quality stuff that was made from other people's designs, with obvious, glaring flaws. She did not want us to repent by not casting, she wanted us to repeat by destroying the failed works.
 
Powerofmind said:
Yall didn't read anything I wrote on the matter, did you?

Casting does not run counter to Dreselin's preferred type of work. It was that we sold, as crafts, utterly worthless shit quality stuff that was made from other people's designs, with obvious, glaring flaws. She did not want us to repent by not casting, she wanted us to repeat by destroying the failed works.
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Rockeye said:
Its only purpose is speed, producing a flawed product at a rapid pace. Such is an offense to true craft everywhere
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Rockeye said:
Dreselin is mad at you and renounces sand casting!
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Casting by its very nature is trades quality for speed and quantity, something that Dreselin said they found offensive. Dreselian also explicitly renounced sand casting, not the product but the method.
 
Powerofmind said:
Yall didn't read anything I wrote on the matter, did you?

Casting does not run counter to Dreselin's preferred type of work. It was that we sold, as crafts, utterly worthless shit quality stuff that was made from other people's designs, with obvious, glaring flaws. She did not want us to repent by not casting, she wanted us to repeat by destroying the failed works.
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it kinda seemed to me like she was against the whole concept of mass production actually.

I mean, the shoddy work was certainly part of it, but also the fact that mass produced goods are.. let's say soulless.

No artisan lovely crafted them trying to make them the best they could be.
 
Honestly, in my opinion it'd probably be best to put the whole thing aside for the time being, focus on the stuff we're already working on - ie, horsecollars, the water mill, etc - and see if we can't meet one of her priests the next time we go to a city to discuss the whole thing with; interpreting their gods' will is should be one of their jobs, after all.

Alternatively, we can always just shrug, assume/accept that she might not be a good fit for us, and leave it at that.
 
Kelenas said:
Honestly, in my opinion it'd probably be best to put the whole thing aside for the time being, focus on the stuff we're already working on - ie, horsecollars, the water mill, etc - and see if we can't meet one of her priests the next time we go to a city to discuss the whole thing with; interpreting their gods' will is should be one of their jobs, after all.

Alternatively, we can always just shrug, assume/accept that she might not be a good fit for us, and leave it at that.
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We'll never please everyone and I'm leaning towards your second point of just shrugging and moving on.
 
Powerofmind said:
Yall didn't read anything I wrote on the matter, did you?

Casting does not run counter to Dreselin's preferred type of work. It was that we sold, as crafts, utterly worthless shit quality stuff that was made from other people's designs, with obvious, glaring flaws. She did not want us to repent by not casting, she wanted us to repeat by destroying the failed works.
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Given that my post had absolutely nothing to do with the exact reasons why Dreselin had issues with what we did, I'm not sure why you would think I failed to read your post.
 
Screw Dreselin - true industry will make him reduant, and therefore useless.
Interesting fact: for long industrial goods were of superior quality to crafted, and perfection, strive for quality and stuff, become asociated with craftmanship latter, because that was the only way for it to remain competitve.
Gods are unnecesary.
Industria gloriam!
 
I mean, obviously we're going to try again EVEN if Dreselin disapproves... but let's not get a goddess angry with us just yet, ok?

Gods, Kami, spirits and such were described as having a.. let's say simple, single-minded outlook.

She hates our products because their not what she venerates: lovingly crafted masterpiece made in an attempt to reach perfection.

If we frame our quest as "we're going to make all the simple things everyone need, so that the TRUE MASTERS OF THEIR CRAFT are free to work for the high quality stuff" and "we're going to make new materials and things available as well, so that the TRUE MASTERS OF THEIR CRAFT have new options in their pursue of perfection", and also "the product might be simple and mass produced, but the art, my masterpiece, is THE METHOD ITSELF. A method even not masters can use, and that allows one person to do the work of many, so that (you all know what I'm about to say by now :p) THE TRUE MASTERS OF THEIR CRAFT can dedicate themselves to things worthier of their time"... or even the point of my whole omake, "all of this is to create a world in which many more people will be able to pursue their passions, and in which THE TRUE MASTERS OF THEIR CRAFT won't have to, say, make a hundred generic iron plows instead of, I don't know, an exquisitely decorative rapier for that one rich eccentric noble...

Well, if we point those things out, we should at least be able to calm her down.

And who knows, maybe she'll like the mill?


p.s. It doesn't necessarily means i was 100% right, but Rockeye gave me an "insightfull" about the "she hates mass production" post.
 
Pittauro said:
HAROLD'S THOUGHTS AND A MIND MADE UP.​

Harold didn't sleep well that night, the scolding of the God heavy on his mind. Nightmares plagued him, indecision and doubt took a hold of his mind.

Tossing and turning, he ended up spending most of night awake, deep in thought.

What could he do? He didn't dare to speak of this with his friends. What if they tried to dissuade him from his course of action? It's unwise, after all, for a mortal to ignore a God's warnings.

Would Greens give up, if he revealed Dreselin's disapproval? He feared so, and that meant he could not risk it.

Was the God maybe right? Was this a perversion of what true craftsmanship should be?

"Certainly not!" his heart cried out. What right did a God, something that knew not of the hardships mortals faced every single day, have of decrying his methods as unworthy! Couldn't it see how many people it would end up helping?

"...wait! That might be it!"

What did he knew about that God? The words of the priest came back to mind:

"To make something as best you can is holy and good. Whether your profession is blacksmith or cooper or seamstress, carpenter or furniture-maker or mason, goldsmith or gemcutter or tailor... If you make something, Dreselin wants your attention and wants you to make it to the best of your skills. She'll give you inspiration and a steady hand, because she loves seeing what the minds and tools of mortal craft can create. Seek inspiration here, or ask for steady hands and solid tools."

...It doesn't matter what your profession is. It doesn't matter what you're making.

Shouldn't that mean that, in Dreselin's eye, a good story is worth as much as a good sword? Both Blacksmiths and writers are creators of a sort after all, and a book is nothing if not a creation born of sharp mind and quick pen.

And what of your goal? In the end sandcasting is not your goal. Not really.

Nor is the mill. Or the horse collars. Or the improvements to the mine.

Those are just tools, means to an end.

And that end.. that end is certainly worth striving for.

A rich society, where people won't ever starve.

An healthy society, where children who could one day grow up to being great don't die in their crib for so stupid a reason as a cold winter.

An happier society, where everyone would be free to pursue your ambitions.

Where people like you would't be forced to join the army just because it was expected of them.

Yes, such a society would require mass produced goods for the common people... but wouldn't that leave more time for the true masters to pursue perfection? Wouldn't the nobles and the rich still ask for superior things, to distinguish themselves from the masses?

Yes, such a society still has a place for the pursue of perfection. The world would always have a place for master craftsmen.

...And such a world, if he could really manage to make it real, would certainly be something worthy of being admired. More than a pretty shirt or a fancy painting. That would be his masterpiece, something Dreselin itself will have no choice but to admire.

Yes, Harold decided. He would stay the course. Tomorrow he would pray again to Dreselin, pour out his heart and mind, and explain.

Explain his goals, his aims, and how they didn't go against the god's values.

He would explain how such a world would be his creation, the one thing that would give his life value. And that he would pursue such, with or without the god's help, because it was the right thing to do.

Even if the divine being disapproved.


And so, with his mind made up, he went back to bed. An arduous task awaited for him in the morning.



so, I tried a thing. I was annoyed about Dreseling denouncing our methods, so I ended up thinking: "what could we do to change his mind?"

This is what I ended up with.

I thought about also writing Harold directly speaking to the God, maybe also adding it's answer, but in the end I decided against it.

After all I don't know if Dreselin would actually accept such a reasoning. Only @Rockeye would know, so (if this ends up being canon) I think it's better if I leave an eventual answer from the god up to the QM.

Give me your thoughts!
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BunnehWyld said:
I wrote a little omake based on Pittauro's thoughts, came to post it... only to find they had already put one up. Shoot!

Well, I'll still leave it here. It does have a different style to it, so it might be worth a read. Really though, the credit should go to Pittauro for inspiring me. And to Rockeye of course. Thank you for giving us such a fascinating world to enjoy!

------

Harold Bismarck got out of bed in the small of the night, sighing. Dreselin's anger had struck the former noble hard, and he found himself… not disputing it, precisely. It was understandable from a certain perspective. But it wasn't exactly right, either.

As he wandered through his home to get a drink, Harold ransacked his brain. The situation reminded him of something, he was sure of it, but he couldn't quite place it… until he heard two owls outside his window, hooting at the same time.

It was like a moment he'd witnessed long in the past. His father had been furious with another noble about something, shouting at the man while he tried to explain. Both men ended up talking past each other, neither quite addressing the other's complaint. In a flash of insight, Harold realized that being in that situation with a god was a good way for his new career to come to an end. Well, there was one thing he could do about that. Nodding, Harold walked back to his bed, kneeling by it and focusing on Dreselin's holy symbol in his mind as he began to pray.

"Dreselin, god of craftsmanship, of perfection in creation. I have angered you with my failures and frustration, and for this I apologize. I think I better understand your displeasure with the failed attempts at casting, now. I should not have wasted your time by asking for your help to produce results so flawed."

Harold paused to take a deep breath. This was the part that could make him… or break him.

"But what I failed to understand about myself was… my goal should never have been the figures, the symbols, the odds and ends. I lost sight of the real purpose."

"I have had visions, oh great Dreselin. Cities of glass and metal and stone, bridges through the sky, wonders beyond compare made possible through a combination of perfected craftsmanship, and new means of creation. These new methods removed the simple drudgery, made basic parts and tools, freeing those most worthy of your love to focus on creating miracles of creation."

"A blacksmith in training does not make dozens of simple knives in order to make many knives. He does it to memorize and master the craft of shaping the iron. I focused on the knives, and lost sight of the skills I should have been developing."

"I will do better. I will use what I have learned to help make things more worthy of you, new ways to create. And these I will bring to you, to show you some of the creativity my mind has glimpsed. I ask not for your aid, for I know I am unworthy. I ask only that you stay your wrath, for I must work with others to do this, and they are good people who do not deserve such punishment. Let me learn from them, so that I can be better. Let me show them what I have seen, so that they can make new stepping stones on the path to future… a future where all can enjoy the fruits of the high craftsmanship you love."

"Thank you for your time."

Yawning, Harold climbed back into bed, pulling his blanket over himself and going back to sleep more easily. He had tried. Now to see if it worked… and to redo the books for the blacksmith in the morning. Honestly, how had the man lost two zeroes, it was… zzzzzz...
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Mmm, I'm not sure I like putting thoughts in your MC's head, he has a voice in my head and these things ring false to it.
 
Rockeye said:
Mmm, I'm not sure I like putting thoughts in your MC's head, he has a voice in my head and these things ring false to it.
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fair enough, It's your character after all. Just label them non canon.

Does that mean you won't give bonuses for the two omake? Did you actually decide if you're going to keep the omake policy as is or not? you mentioned maybe removing it.
 
I'm debating myself here because on the one hand, you both tried something and that's nice, but on the other hand I just. Don't like them.

Maybe stick to side characters or unnamed randos for omake perspectives, so my brain doesn't have cognitive dissonance. I mean, I'll threadmark 'em though, sure.
 
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