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Industrialization Quest

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veekie said:
[X][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
[X] Yes.

Not as much as you might think.
It probably started accidentally, remember the fields aren't fenced. Everyone 'knows' where their field is, but theres no actual surveyed and marked boundaries, so its easy to just plow or plant beyond your lines and hey you're friendly neighbors and don't want to make a fuss, as long as they don't try stealing what you planted.

This sort of thing is endemic, and well, after a few years they probably realize they're a bit richer than expected, so why not continue?

You really don't want to make an example of this. You can do it completely by accident and, the worst part is they're actually reducing their yields, the double-planted fields are not being left fallow properly and thus the soil is getting overworked.
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They could be doing it by accident, but it's very clear from the language that they knew they weren't doing it accidentally. Some of the people we talked to actually claimed those fields as their own fallow fields and were confused that there was anything happening at all, and were seeing less yields because of their neighbors overfarming on what is ostensibly not their land.

It did probably start accidentally, but eventually they moved towards doing a lot more of it quite intentionally, to the point that they were only paying 2/3's of their taxes. That doesn't mean they stole a plot here and there, they were farming more than half their own land's worth of extra plots. Not only was it intentional, they couldn't possibly have done that without significant planning.
 
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Summer 1138 Report and Rumor Mill
  • Threadmarks
    • Summer 1138 Report

    Important notice - We are switching from monthly turns to quarterly turns now that you are reasonably established and have a completed research project.



    You started this quarter with 15 Profit.

    At the end of June 1138, you had 9 Profit, 5 Profit invested for 1 month, 4 Profit invested for 2 months.

    Assets generating money:
    Crown Granaries Supply Charter --> 0
    Crown Stipend for Improvement of Lands --> 0
    Contracted Blacksmith --> 1d10 = 10 --> 2 Profit
    Small Open Pit Iron Mine --> 1d4 - 1 --> 0 Profit

    While business with the smith is booming and you made a lot of money over the last few months by organizing the work and bringing in customers, multiple minor accidents at your open pit iron mine meant you needed to pay for minor repairs and refurbishing. That plus general bad weather and the smith's inability to process a large amount of ore meant you didn't actually earn any profit off the mine this season.

    End of Summer 1138 money status: 11 Profit, 5 Profit invested for 1 month, 4 Profit invested for 2 months.

    Due to the switch to quarterly turns, this changes to: 16 Profit, 4 Profit invested for 1 season.



    Nesiwald Rumor Mill

    What the mill?     The Steward's come up with multiple amazing things! Fixing up the iron mine was one thing, but this stuff with the water mill and new animal collars that don't restrict the beasts' airways is his idea as well. The ingenious little device he built to show the idea is a popular toy with the kids and even some adults now, and while some are skeptical the big one will work as he claims it's certainly an exciting idea, letting the river do the hard work of grinding for us! And there's another thing... Working with that apprentice he's come up with a way to make cheap iron plows! Well, somewhat cheap. That much metal is still pretty expensive... It's just worth it because the thing cuts through soil beautifully. It's a farmer's dream tool.

    The lad seems like some kind of genius and seems likely to bring a bright future to Nesiwald. Though, some are waiting to see if that bright future actually materializes, and others are a bit worried about him getting too much money and power and starting to kick the little guys around... He is a nobleman of sorts after all, if an unconventional one. Who knows what goes through those daft folks' minds sometimes?

    The zombies are still here. A few months ago, the Cavalry went into the hinterlands north of the Rostwald to search for and destroy the Undead taint. While they were successful and cleared a few dozen of the beasties, there have been more sightings. Some of the homesteaders who try to make new lives deep in the rugged hills flee south in fear, telling stories of strange noises, undead wild beasts, and whole families of zombies wandering around their former home! The north is even more isolated than we are. There are no roads or even trails for dozens of miles until you reach the other side of the mountain chain at the heart of that region. It doesn't seem terribly dangerous yet, but is there a vile Necromancer doing evil deep in those mountains?

    War rumors from the kingdom. By all accounts the war is going extremely well. According to rumors, the army at Ganz is finally mobilized and marching east. Veschwar forces already over there were getting beat down by superior numbers, but with fresh new soldiers all three of our enemies have been pushed back quite hard. Nobody is really sure when the war will be over, though. It might be a year or two, to make sure the lesson not to mess with Veschwar really sticks to those treacherous easterners and secure some kind of compensation for their cowardly initial attack. But there is no danger of invasion - we are winning the war, by Ordnil's blessing, helped by the brave militia volunteering from all corners of the realm and our noble knights who serve as stalwart guardians! Huzzah!

    Other Rumor Mills locked.

    Results of tax dodgers punishment will be included in next turn's planning post.

    Due to the switch to quarterly turns, Rumor Mill will now be annual, not quarterly. Next Rumor Mill will come out in Winter 1139.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • So I say we start working on the mill we have enough money and our mother may be coming to see this thing best not to disappoint her at this stage.
     
    Powerofmind said:
    They could be doing it by accident, but it's very clear from the language that they knew they weren't doing it accidentally. Some of the people we talked to actually claimed those fields as their own fallow fields and were confused that there was anything happening at all, and were seeing less yields because of their neighbors overfarming on what is ostensibly not their land.

    It did probably start accidentally, but eventually they moved towards doing a lot more of it quite intentionally, to the point that they were only paying 2/3's of their taxes. That doesn't mean they stole a plot here and there, they were farming more than half their own land's worth of extra plots. Not only was it intentional, they couldn't possibly have done that without significant planning.
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    Yes, they're doing it on purpose NOW, but making an example is pointless, because the accidental form is going to arise again, and theres literally no way they can avoid that until we deploy better field marking and mapping tools. Punishing people for something any farmer knows "just happens" is a good way to breed resentment AND it won't actually fix the problem.

    Just fine them the difference and work on the actual fix of properly surveyed and marked fields. Now that we know what happens we can check with the Codex for ideas,
     
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    Possessions and Assets, Economic info, Approval info
  • Informational
    • Separating this out from the Character Sheet.

    Possessions and Assets:

    Money in hand:
    11 Profit.

    Debts:
    You owe 25 Profit to Cornet Renns, due Autumn 1142 or sooner.

    Assets/Income:
    In Nesiwald
    Manager: Abram Waller, retired soldier. Actual profit from the businesses may be less when you are not personally overseeing them.
    Cast Iron Plow Industry (Iron Mine and Plow Worship) - Generates 2-7 Profit per season when personally overseen.
    Large Watermill - Generates 4-8 Profit per season when personally overseen. Inoperable during Winter.

    In the Bismarck lands
    Tiny Vodka Distillery (1d10 Profit/turn, depends on spices/ingredients/hype)
    Horse Collar Workshop (1d2 Profit/turn)
    Bismarck Lands Census: Bonus to recruiting workforce and to rural actions in the Bismarck lands.
    Grain Windmill upon the hills above Zoetdorf. (2d2 Profit/turn)
    Small Iron Mine with dirt road connection (2d2 Profit/turn)

    Ongoing Expenses:
    Hilde Govesnacht, spymistress. 1 Profit/season. Additionally manages your Veschwar and Economy rumor mills, costing 2 Profit/year.
    Gerald Hooker, bodyguard. 1 Profit/season.
    Otto Carlsberg, One-Eyed Sapper. 2 Profit/season.
    Considerable donation to the Church of Shallya in the city of Rivenwall, 5 Profit/season.

    Other Notable Possessions:
    The Codex Crystal
    Writing tools and a considerable amount of paper
    Ionian Tea, running low
    Small amount of Niter
    The Ironfriend's Guide, a well-written book on ironworking
    Ore Extraction Methods, a dry manual on geology and mining
    Watermill Demo, a small demonstration built in Nesiwald that shows how a watermill works
    A shelf full of cheap novels
    One set of Standard Weights and Measures, metric
    A snappy set of leather armor, and a sword and shield to go with it
    A fine wooden bracelet with carved chess pieces, last memento of a friend you knew for too little time.
    Simple fireproof workroom/laboratory.



    Village of Nesiwald economic status (as of Winter 1139, may be outdated):
    Small population, moderate growth
    Small open pit iron mine (low quality ore, medium quality facilities) - owned by you
    Tiny+ blacksmithing industry
    Medium individual farms - (Small individual farms with Four Field Crop Rotation)
    Small herding trade
    Tiny+ cottage industry (carpentry)



    Approval:
    [Nesiwald Approval: 7/10]
    [Rostwald Region Approval: 4/10]
    [Bismarck Fiefdom Approval: 5/10]
    [Commons Approval: Low?]
    [Army Approval: Very low?]
    [Nobility Approval: 4/10, though some approve of you more and others less.]
    [Crown Approval: The King is not aware you exist.]
     
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  • Informational
    • veekie said:
    Yes, they're doing it on purpose NOW, but making an example is pointless, because the accidental form is going to arise again, and theres literally no way they can avoid that until we deploy better field marking and mapping tools. Punishing people for something any farmer knows "just happens" is a good way to breed resentment AND it won't actually fix the problem.

    Just fine them the difference and work on the actual fix of properly surveyed and marked fields. Now that we know what happens we can check with the Codex for ideas,
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    The punishment isn't for making an error, it's for fraudulently claiming they only have X fields that produced Y bushels when they were secretly getting an extra Z bushels from their neighbors.

    They weren't just cutting into their neighbors and then giving over the extra proceeds as would be the law, they were deliberately dodging around the law and pretending they didn't actually harvest as much as they did.
     
    Rockeye said:
    The zombies are still here. A few months ago, the Cavalry went into the hinterlands north of the Rostwald to search for and destroy the Undead taint. While they were successful and cleared a few dozen of the beasties, there have been more sightings. Some of the homesteaders who try to make new lives deep in the rugged hills flee south in fear, telling stories of strange noises, undead wild beasts, and whole families of zombies wandering around their former home! The north is even more isolated than we are. There are no roads or even trails for dozens of miles until you reach the other side of the mountain chain at the heart of that region. It doesn't seem terribly dangerous yet, but is there a vile Necromancer doing evil deep in those mountains?
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    This is... not good. More zombies to the point there could be a necromancer? that is going to cause some issues and potential chaos even if it is not true. And if it is Niswald is the most northern village. So martial actions may be a bit more important than first thought and walls just went up on my priority list. Luckily the war is going well so if the issue does get worse hopefully we can get more state troops instead of having them stripped away to the front. The good news in all of this is we may be able to get some of the fleeing homesteaders to settle in Niswald. There may not be many but more people is more people.

    Actually thinking about it @Rockeye I know you said that the rivers in the area are not navigable downriver to the rest of Veschwar but do we know if they are navigable north any distance? It would make developing up north much more of a possibility after the Zombies are dealt with.
     
    They turn into tiny streams in the mountain headwaters pretty quickly after Nesiwald. And now that I think about it, the waterfalls that make the rivers not navigable all the way south are not massive and huge things necessarily. They're just bits of rapids and short falls that you can't take a boat over. I bet there is a little bit of small boat trade with portages.
     
    Eldon said:
    This is... not good. More zombies to the point there could be a necromancer? that is going to cause some issues and potential chaos even if it is not true. And if it is Niswald is the most northern village. So martial actions may be a bit more important than first thought and walls just went up on my priority list. Luckily the war is going well so if the issue does get worse hopefully we can get more state troops instead of having them stripped away to the front. The good news in all of this is we may be able to get some of the fleeing homesteaders to settle in Niswald. There may not be many but more people is more people.

    Actually thinking about it @Rockeye I know you said that the rivers in the area are not navigable downriver to the rest of Veschwar but do we know if they are navigable north any distance? It would make developing up north much more of a possibility after the Zombies are dealt with.
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    To be fair, the last time there were zombie sightings, there were also rumors about a necromancer. It's a rumor mill, with hearsay from all around the Rostwald getting telephone gamed into bigger and bigger juicy gossip to the point you don't know what's true or not.
     
    We still need to be absolutely sure we have enough to pay what we owe. I think that's 10 profit next turn, we only have 16 now. We have to be careful to have 10 at the end of the turn, and probably save another 2 for wiggle room in case of emergencies. We should be very frugal.

    [X][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
     
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    Powerofmind said:
    The punishment isn't for making an error, it's for fraudulently claiming they only have X fields that produced Y bushels when they were secretly getting an extra Z bushels from their neighbors.

    They weren't just cutting into their neighbors and then giving over the extra proceeds as would be the law, they were deliberately dodging around the law and pretending they didn't actually harvest as much as they did.
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    Except people wouldn't be getting the same feedback?
    We're not getting any benefit out of making an example. Theres nobody who said "lets do this", its "well this is happening, might as well reap the benefits"

    Yes, they are ethically and legally wrong, but making an example wouldn't deter the problem, because the root cause is accidental, and, would hinder our ability to roll out an actual fix.
     
    veekie said:
    Except people wouldn't be getting the same feedback?
    We're not getting any benefit out of making an example. Theres nobody who said "lets do this", its "well this is happening, might as well reap the benefits"

    Yes, they are ethically and legally wrong, but making an example wouldn't deter the problem, because the root cause is accidental, and, would hinder our ability to roll out an actual fix.
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    That doesn't work. It just doesn't. You don't go from "Oh, we're making more than we used to, we have so much more after taxes" to "how about we just not tell anyone we're farming these plots and keep it all" by accident. Making an example of deliberate, well-organized fraud that has the side-effect of making your neighbors poorer for it (since you're not letting their fields fallow when you do this, and it hurts their harvests) is exactly what we should do, and even if it is kind of harsh, the perpetrators clearly didn't care if it eventually ended up completely destroying some of their neighbors' fields, which they would know well enough about.

    They were deliberately stealing from their neighbors solely to enrich themselves. You can't be lenient to all of them, but you can forgive less-established farmers for taking the advice of their neighbors and just 'using land nobody would be using anyway'.
     
    Powerofmind said:
    To be fair, the last time there were zombie sightings, there were also rumors about a necromancer. It's a rumor mill, with hearsay from all around the Rostwald getting telephone gamed into bigger and bigger juicy gossip to the point you don't know what's true or not.
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    What is getting me worried they may be true is that it has lasted so long. The way zombies were described was that if there were a few it probably is just weird magic. But it's been months and they not only are still here. There seem to be more of them. And Niswald is the most northern village with the military hunting the zombies coming in regularly. We are probably in the best place to get said reports. And if half the stories the homesteaders say are true that looks like a necromancer to me. And I doubt that people willing to march of to make a home in the unknown. Without any support nearby are the type to run away from everything they built at the first moan in the night. So them straight up abandoning the life they made is enough evedince that I think it is better to assume that even if not a necromancer something bad is going on in the mountains.
     
    [x][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
     
    [x][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.

    Not too harsh the first time. Also with switch to quarter we need to start the mill the coming turn
     
    Parzival95 said:
    We still need to be absolutely sure we have enough to pay what we owe. I think that's 10 profit next turn, we only have 16 now. We have to be careful to have 10 at the end of the turn, and probably save another 2 for wiggle room in case of emergencies. We should be very frugal.

    [X][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
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    well, we're getting the 4 invested back, plus

    Rockeye said:
    Assets:
    Crown Granaries Supply Charter. Unless there is a crop failure, receive 2 Profit at the end of Spring and 4 Profit at the end of Autumn.
    Crown Stipend for Improvement of Lands. Generates +1 Profit at the end of each Winter.
    Contracted Blacksmith - Roll d10. Results are 1 = 0 Profit. 2-9 = 1 Profit. 10 = 2 Profit.
    Small Open Pit Iron Mine - Generates 1d4 minus 1 Profit per season.
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    the 4 from crown granaries next turn and 1 from crown stipend the turn after that, a near certain 1 from blacksmith (i think it's each season?) and the 1d4-1 from the mine.

    so by the end of the next turn we'll have 16+4(invested)+4(granaries)+1(blacksmith, pretty much a sure thing)+1d4-1 (average 1.5, 0 at worst, 3 at best) for a total of 24 (if both mines and blacksmith fail, really unlikely) to 28.

    Realistically we won't have less than 25 profits.. before removing the costs of the next turn of course. 8 for the mill, so we're down to 17

    We need at least 10 the turn after, and in winter we should get 1(crown stipend)+1(blacksmith)+1d4-1, so at least 2 profits, 3.5 on average.

    which means that, in the next two turns combined, we can spend at most (excluding the 8 from the mill and keeping the 10 for the debt...) around 10 profits.




    SHORT VERSION: other than the 8 for the mill, to be able to pay the 10 of debt we can spend in total 10 profits during the next two turns (not counting profits from new possible actions if they can repay themselves before the end of winter.

    I didn't count the costs for the second part of the mill, but we CAN delay that if necessary, so it's not as urgent.
     
    [x][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
     
    [x][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
     
    Rockeye said:
    [][Tithe] Lenient. Make a speech to guilt-trip them and make it very clear that this will no longer be tolerated.
    [][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
    [][Tithe] Harsh. Assign a sharp fine and have Renns's men cut the heads of the families' palms open, in the traditional punishment for fraud. This will hurt a lot and they won't be able to work very well for a while. They might even get infected and lose their hands or die. This is very harsh and won't win you any approval, but will resoundingly discourage any future tax cheating.
    [][Tithe] Out of my hands. Send all this information to the Lord Governor's tax office (perhaps to Genevieve specifically) with a thorough explanation and a request for instructions.
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    Pittauro said:
    either lenient or moderate I think, with a side of "you're lucky the punishment is up to me and not to the governor". Maybe we can offer a discount on the ploughs to sweeten the punishment a bit in a "I'm just doing my work, but there's another way I can help you"?
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    @Rockeye May we have a more specific method of approaching the tithe? Since I want it to be clear that we are the one showing mercy I'd like something like this:

    [X][Tithe] Lenient. Approach the head of each family involved in the scheme. Let them know that you have identified what is going on, and that you have already reported this to Cornet Renns who is prepared to support the administration of punishment. Inform them that the traditional punishment would be to cut their palms open. However, you are well aware that with the harvest coming up this would place a great burden on everyone trying to bring in the crops. Which would benefit no one, particularly with the army in the field and in need of supplies. So you believe you can persuade Cornet Renns to a more lenient punishment. However, the Governor might not be so merciful. Therefor you have prepared a contract, in which the head of the family will admit to have made "errors" in previous tithes, and agreeing to a payment plan to make good on those errors. Such a contract will essentially transform the underpayments into a debt that the family must pay back to the government. Thus making it legal and no longer subject to fraud punishments. At least, as long as the family makes the payments on time. Negotiate firmly for a repayment plan that is achievable for the family, yet also still a burden to make them aware they should not do such thing. Mention when leaving that you don't think you will be able to protect anyone who attempts this practice in the future, as further tithe breaking will be seen as deliberate, and cannot be passed off as negligence again.

    Maybe that's too complicated, but basically I want to leave them with the impression of:
    1: A steward who knows what is going on and will catch cheating
    2: Who understands the realities of farming, and that traditional punishment would be particularly harsh for a farmer at harvest time
    3: Who is willing to use his knowledge of the law and other "noble things" to protect his villagers - but only if they repent and cheat no more

    EDIT: Also a note for running the tally. It goes off of threadmarks, which auto sets tot he last one which is the rumor mill. That means you will need to manually set the threadmark to end of turn 8.
     
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    Way too detailed for a write in vote. Paragraph long plans when I didn't ask for them just give me a headache. Also peasants will be VERY DISTRUSTFUL of a piece of paper you're asking them to sign. They got caught cheating. They'll be punished in a simple and direct manner, right? Anything more complicated than fines or being sent off to do hard labor for a year or five or corporeal punishment is just weird and confusing and probably some kind of elaborate scheme.

    Also, complicated 260-word plans are a no unless I specifically ask for them! And I probably won't in this quest except in really rare circumstances. It's not my style and Harold Bismarck is not the thread's meat puppet. (I'm tired or I would have said that politer.)
     
    To clarify: Suggesting variations on actions or write-ins is generally OK, just try to keep it to a sentence or two.

    And Mr. Bismarck is a character with internal experiences and a voice in my head. He's an introspective and introverted dude who grew up thinking he is smarter than everyone and has a something between a right and a duty to boss others around for their own good. That's what nobility means to him, and he still feels it even through the shame of being denounced.
     
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    [X][Tithe] Lenient. Make a speech to guilt-trip them and make it very clear that this will no longer be tolerated.
    [X] Yes.
     
    [X][Tithe] Moderate. Publicly name and shame the guilty, then assess a fine to each family for tax-dodging.
     
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