Maybe, but I figure we should at least try to be a bit more subtle about it.
In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)
- Location
- London, England
A lot of interesting discussion so far, but no actual votes. Apparently SV doesn't trust itself to navigate the careful maze of etiquette and protocol... or generally has no idea how to conduct counter-insurgency operations in a feudal culture.
Which, in fairness, is not exactly a commonly required skill.
Advising that they go to the Scorpion for help, by the way, could either be a compliment or a serious insult depending on how you frame it.
Which, in fairness, is not exactly a commonly required skill.
Advising that they go to the Scorpion for help, by the way, could either be a compliment or a serious insult depending on how you frame it.
IIRC feudal/medieval counter-insurgency basically consisted of various levels of "kill all the uppity peasants in the area". Not sure that's the sort of advice the Magistrate would appreciate....
Yeah, but they still might not want to de-populate the seat of one their main families. At least, not without the situation getting a lot worse.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
If no one else has come up with anything by then, I'll try to throw something together later tonight. Still want to run the implications before I do. This looks like it's Otomo-sama using his school ability of "let's you and him fight". Side-stepping that while remaining in his good graces is *tricky*.
He does like us, so he is unlikely to press us further into fighting the magistrate if we can pass this test. We should ask @Maugan Ra for an etiquette check on whether or not talking about the family trade would help or hurt when we make a suggestion.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
By all means, feel free to request etiquette/lore checks. That requires no vote.
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
@Maugan Ra
Would suggesting asking for help from a Kitsuki be considered rude? Probably with something included that the Kitsuki method, for all of its unorthodoxy, works. This is something our Clan can likely and unfortunately attest to.
Would suggesting asking for help from a Kitsuki be considered rude? Probably with something included that the Kitsuki method, for all of its unorthodoxy, works. This is something our Clan can likely and unfortunately attest to.
The Lion despise the Kitsuki as a rule.
Implying evidence is somehow superior to a Samurai's word? DISGUSTING
And vote
[x] "As a purely hypothetical situation Otomo-sama?" A pause.
"I would set a trap, something valuable enough that you would not trust it to an intermediary, something you would go after yourself. If there was a co-ordinator they would come themselves or send someone who knows them that could be captured. From there it is easy enough to follow the trail. Like one would lay a snare for a troublesome beast."
"Even if you don't get the co-ordinator, you will still have some idiots who try and rid the world of them. Of course, to set such a trap one would of course look very carefully at the commonalities of the acts and actors to figure out what this goal of the co-ordinator is. Working against Imperial law is not an act done lightly, particularly in the stronghold of one of the honourable Lion. Ergo there is a purpose to this. Depending on the commonalities, it could be to undermine the Matsu, the Imperial government or revenge for an offence in the past. Or..." derisive shudder "Profit"
Implying evidence is somehow superior to a Samurai's word? DISGUSTING
And vote
[x] "As a purely hypothetical situation Otomo-sama?" A pause.
"I would set a trap, something valuable enough that you would not trust it to an intermediary, something you would go after yourself. If there was a co-ordinator they would come themselves or send someone who knows them that could be captured. From there it is easy enough to follow the trail. Like one would lay a snare for a troublesome beast."
"Even if you don't get the co-ordinator, you will still have some idiots who try and rid the world of them. Of course, to set such a trap one would of course look very carefully at the commonalities of the acts and actors to figure out what this goal of the co-ordinator is. Working against Imperial law is not an act done lightly, particularly in the stronghold of one of the honourable Lion. Ergo there is a purpose to this. Depending on the commonalities, it could be to undermine the Matsu, the Imperial government or revenge for an offence in the past. Or..." derisive shudder "Profit"
- Location
- London, England
Falling back on your family's reputation and known methods is neither inherently positive or negative. It is, in fact, what is expected, and that can be either good or bad.
How your suggestion would be received would then depend on what Kitsu Ami thinks of the Soshi family and the Scorpion as a whole, rather than depending on what she thinks of you as an individual.
@gman391 is correct here - advising that the Lion seek the aid of the Dragon here would be deeply unlikely to go over well. The Lion are the most traditional Clan of all, and the Kitsu are the keepers of their sacred traditions and priests of their honored ancestors.
In the eyes of the Lion, the Kitsuki are a young family (only just about three hundred years old) full of strange ideas. They are unorthodox, come from an unorthodox Clan, and practice a form of investigation which inherently relies on doubting a samurai's given word and favoring objective truth over what is the most honourable course of action.
You can get away with suggesting that she ask the Scorpion for help because you are a Scorpion - demonstrating pride and a confidence in your own family's techniques is fully expected and laudable among samurai. If you call upon the fact that your Clan is officially appointed by the Emperor to do this sort of thing you even win bonus points, because the Lion are all about doing your imperiallay-bestowed duty.
Recommending that she consult the Kitsuki, on the other hand, is liable to get you challenged to a duel unless you are very careful in how you word it.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Opposing vote.
[x] As a purely hypothetical situation, Otomo-sama? it would depend on what resources I had available to me. The things that you can expect Lion magistrates to be willing to do and the things that you can expect Scorpion magistrates to be willing to do are not the same. I have learned from the stories of my family about the proper way to approach such a situation. You must follow the creature back to its lair. Perhaps you catch some of the obvious patsies and seek to extract from them their commonalities. Perhaps you leave some of them to run free for a time, so that they can be watched and followed. Perhaps you seek to turn the loyalties of some, so that they can be used to draw out others. I have learned of these ways, but I have not learned their proper execution. Proper execution requires magistrates who are trained in these techniques and willing to apply them.
[x] Thus, if I were not already in a city of my own Clan, I would go to the Scorpion for assistance. The Scorpion are by formal decree the Emperor's Under Hand. Seeking out shadowy conspiracies that might threaten the Empire is exactly what we are here for. Obviously there are diplomatic concerns, but barring significant hostilities, I suspect the Scorpion would be quite reasonable. My clan is eager to serve the will of the Emperor in any way we can.
A bit long-winded, but it manages to answer the question reasonably well while not telling the Lion magistrate that she's an idiot for not having thought of it first, and suggesting that her magistrates might find it an impossible task through no fault of their own. Then goes on to shill for our own magistrates in a way that gives her an out to agree to it honorably, while briefly acknowledging diplomatic concerns so that we're not telling her she's a moron for not having thought of *that*.
Actually, I'd like an etiquette check on that. Is this too longwinded for the situation? Does it need to be trimmed down?
[x] As a purely hypothetical situation, Otomo-sama? it would depend on what resources I had available to me. The things that you can expect Lion magistrates to be willing to do and the things that you can expect Scorpion magistrates to be willing to do are not the same. I have learned from the stories of my family about the proper way to approach such a situation. You must follow the creature back to its lair. Perhaps you catch some of the obvious patsies and seek to extract from them their commonalities. Perhaps you leave some of them to run free for a time, so that they can be watched and followed. Perhaps you seek to turn the loyalties of some, so that they can be used to draw out others. I have learned of these ways, but I have not learned their proper execution. Proper execution requires magistrates who are trained in these techniques and willing to apply them.
[x] Thus, if I were not already in a city of my own Clan, I would go to the Scorpion for assistance. The Scorpion are by formal decree the Emperor's Under Hand. Seeking out shadowy conspiracies that might threaten the Empire is exactly what we are here for. Obviously there are diplomatic concerns, but barring significant hostilities, I suspect the Scorpion would be quite reasonable. My clan is eager to serve the will of the Emperor in any way we can.
A bit long-winded, but it manages to answer the question reasonably well while not telling the Lion magistrate that she's an idiot for not having thought of it first, and suggesting that her magistrates might find it an impossible task through no fault of their own. Then goes on to shill for our own magistrates in a way that gives her an out to agree to it honorably, while briefly acknowledging diplomatic concerns so that we're not telling her she's a moron for not having thought of *that*.
Actually, I'd like an etiquette check on that. Is this too longwinded for the situation? Does it need to be trimmed down?
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- Location
- Earth
Let's see if I can not be of assistance:
[x] "That is quite an intresting question Otomo-sama."
(Reading the introduction it seems to me we have yet to even say hello to Kitsu Ami. Can we get an etiquette check, or would Soshi how to properly addres her? In any case I would like to include the appropriate level of defference bow or whatever it is that is needed towards Kitsu(-sama???) along with an apologetic smile for having to answer our superiors question before a proper introduction.
After the appropriate bow(or whatever is needed) think on it for a bit, before adding:" If my lord as asking me to deal with such a manner I would likely be serving as magistrate or yoriki( or i suppose do a lore check if needed to know what position would be likely asked to deal with a request of such nature from a lord). But where would such a thing be happening? The field of battle is of great significance when picking a fight. A wise general would assume the proper tactics for the terrain. " On the final sentance giving a small nod to Kitsu.
"If battle was joined on an open field one would not do battle the same as when the armies needed to wade trough swamp and muck to reach each other. If I had with me an army trained to excell in open, honorable combat and my enemy was hiding in the depths of a murky swamp, finding a local guide familiar with the terrain, or at least a specialist trained to wade trough that muck would be prudent. Such a specialist might be able to flush the cowards from the darkness into the open where they would be crushed by my elite soldiers."
Swinging my eyes from Otomo-sama to Kitsu, Soshi would add in a quieter but slightly sharper tone:"Of course the trouble with taking someone from outside my regular forces is trust." Leave a slight pause there. Then lower my voice filling it with cold:" However if I might Otomo-sama, let's say the latest incident was more then undermining the local law. Let's say it was treason." the final word ringing with frost.
Several heartbeats later in a quiet tone:"That would change matters quite a bit Otomo-sama." Bowing to both Otomo and Kitsu:"(Either the Scorpion words mentioned below or something apropriately patriotic and pious and honorable. Preferably something that references a previous time the Scorpion and Lion came together to overcome a greater threat. The Second day of Thunder was recent so maybe something from that time?)
*********************
I know the Crab have their saying:"We are the Wall."
The Scorpions main point is Loyalty to the empire, beyond any other concerns. Do they have similar words?
Not quite a complete vote but i kind of lack sufficient knowledge of the setting to fill it all out. What I am trying to do here is imply that answering the question Otomo asked is to get me(or other Scorpions but I am what is available) to work with them, with Otomo guarantiing that if I turn on them I am betraying not the Lion, but the Empire, playing on the Scorpion rep for Loyalty to the Empire.
All the while trying to put the whole thing as alegory for a battle, something the Lion can releate to. Can Soshi make a lore check to see if he knows a battle(from history) that went favorably for the Lion hen they were fighting on difficult terrain and they benefited from specialist aid, or just from adapting to the battlefield. That would help the alegory much, saying something like:" Life the General So and So on the fields of SO and SO, instead of the mess that is the start of the "If battle was joined on an open field..." That would be a lot more effective.
[x] "That is quite an intresting question Otomo-sama."
(Reading the introduction it seems to me we have yet to even say hello to Kitsu Ami. Can we get an etiquette check, or would Soshi how to properly addres her? In any case I would like to include the appropriate level of defference bow or whatever it is that is needed towards Kitsu(-sama???) along with an apologetic smile for having to answer our superiors question before a proper introduction.
After the appropriate bow(or whatever is needed) think on it for a bit, before adding:" If my lord as asking me to deal with such a manner I would likely be serving as magistrate or yoriki( or i suppose do a lore check if needed to know what position would be likely asked to deal with a request of such nature from a lord). But where would such a thing be happening? The field of battle is of great significance when picking a fight. A wise general would assume the proper tactics for the terrain. " On the final sentance giving a small nod to Kitsu.
"If battle was joined on an open field one would not do battle the same as when the armies needed to wade trough swamp and muck to reach each other. If I had with me an army trained to excell in open, honorable combat and my enemy was hiding in the depths of a murky swamp, finding a local guide familiar with the terrain, or at least a specialist trained to wade trough that muck would be prudent. Such a specialist might be able to flush the cowards from the darkness into the open where they would be crushed by my elite soldiers."
Swinging my eyes from Otomo-sama to Kitsu, Soshi would add in a quieter but slightly sharper tone:"Of course the trouble with taking someone from outside my regular forces is trust." Leave a slight pause there. Then lower my voice filling it with cold:" However if I might Otomo-sama, let's say the latest incident was more then undermining the local law. Let's say it was treason." the final word ringing with frost.
Several heartbeats later in a quiet tone:"That would change matters quite a bit Otomo-sama." Bowing to both Otomo and Kitsu:"(Either the Scorpion words mentioned below or something apropriately patriotic and pious and honorable. Preferably something that references a previous time the Scorpion and Lion came together to overcome a greater threat. The Second day of Thunder was recent so maybe something from that time?)
*********************
I know the Crab have their saying:"We are the Wall."
The Scorpions main point is Loyalty to the empire, beyond any other concerns. Do they have similar words?
Not quite a complete vote but i kind of lack sufficient knowledge of the setting to fill it all out. What I am trying to do here is imply that answering the question Otomo asked is to get me(or other Scorpions but I am what is available) to work with them, with Otomo guarantiing that if I turn on them I am betraying not the Lion, but the Empire, playing on the Scorpion rep for Loyalty to the Empire.
All the while trying to put the whole thing as alegory for a battle, something the Lion can releate to. Can Soshi make a lore check to see if he knows a battle(from history) that went favorably for the Lion hen they were fighting on difficult terrain and they benefited from specialist aid, or just from adapting to the battlefield. That would help the alegory much, saying something like:" Life the General So and So on the fields of SO and SO, instead of the mess that is the start of the "If battle was joined on an open field..." That would be a lot more effective.
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cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
this is not an easy or good position to be in....
- Location
- London, England
Etiquette 6k3 = 27
That's about the right sort of length. It covers all of the relevant points without a great deal of meaningless side-tracking and explains your reasoning with sufficient clarity. I'd probably end up breaking it up a little during an update, adding in NPC responses and commentary, but I do that for basically all of the write-in votes anyway.
Still, that's three votes now, and each of them for a different answer. I'll hold off on an update until we get some kind of consensus, I think.
Gman's feel a bit too direct and potentially insulting to the Lion, at least if said hypothetical plan ends being considered better in general than what they are currently doing. Primemountain feels a bit too verbose on the other hand, a bit patronizing in a couple passages and ends in a potentially indirectly insulting note by suggesting there was treason involved (as likely that actually is).
As it stands:
[X] Sirroco
And on a sidenote: On the matter used as a cover for the real question, not that we should ever say that aloud, at least not to the Lion, and probably not to Otomo-sama (for now at least): "Who watches the watchmen." Not necessarily the top magistrate, although it is a possibility, but when an investigation fails to find anything, besides the investigators failing or there not being anything to find, there's also the possibility that the investigators found exactly what they wanted to find...
As it stands:
[X] Sirroco
And on a sidenote: On the matter used as a cover for the real question, not that we should ever say that aloud, at least not to the Lion, and probably not to Otomo-sama (for now at least): "Who watches the watchmen." Not necessarily the top magistrate, although it is a possibility, but when an investigation fails to find anything, besides the investigators failing or there not being anything to find, there's also the possibility that the investigators found exactly what they wanted to find...
EtchedSteel
*mumble mumble*
- Location
- Lima. Peru
[x] Sirocco
Perhaps... We need a bit more of info to work with here. Backing up to what we have learned is a valid thing to do. Also, nice wording.
Perhaps... We need a bit more of info to work with here. Backing up to what we have learned is a valid thing to do. Also, nice wording.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Huh. Just realized that there's a nonzero chance that my write-in was, more or less, what Otomo-sama had intended. There's a nontrivial chance that even if he hadn't intended it, he'll play it as if he had.
I'm also realizing more and more that even as an ally, Otomo-sama is dangerous to know. The benefits he can bring are worth it, but that man is *dangerous*.
I'm also realizing more and more that even as an ally, Otomo-sama is dangerous to know. The benefits he can bring are worth it, but that man is *dangerous*.
- Location
- Earth
Thanks for the feedback. I could be wrong, but is not an assasination attempt on Otomo as an imperial representative (I figure he is something like a highranking bureocrat) treason? I figured the attempt was just the last in the series of incidents for undermining the law, the smuggleing case being another one?
If whoever is doing this incited the incidents and the attempt on Otomes life, would that not make them traitors? And give a far more menacing apperance to the efforts made so far in undermining Imperial authority? Maybe they were jost preparation for more to come?
EDIT: I feel like Sirocos answer is what Otomo wants, but that it also creates friction between Scorpion and Lion. We are basiclly telling them we are better at their job, that and that they can not handle it. I'd rather try to avoid that, even if I've not the words to frame such an answer perfectly.
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Sirrocco
Pedantic
I can see the concern here, but it's not as bad as you think. In particular, there's that "Emperor's Under Hand" reference. The Emperor himself has given the Scorpion the responsibility for rooting out shadowy conspiracies and hidden threats within the Empire, with the strong implication that it was so that other samurai would not have to sully themselves with the sorts of dishonorable behavior necessary to get the job done. Thus, we're basically telling them that hey - looks like you're having trouble dealing with it because you've been trying to do *our* job, and our job is simply too dishonorable for the Lion to be good at. "You're too honorable to do that properly" is something of an insult on the lips of the Scorpion, but is at worst a backhanded compliment in the ears of the Lion, and it gives her all sorts of social cover for getting out of the situation gracefully.
On the flip side, it's probably not what Otomo-sama was looking for. It seems more likely that what he was looking for was for us to whip out a basic treatise on Scorpion magistrate technique in how it applies to the situation. Given that Scorpion Magistrate technique is pretty much designed for the situation while also being *extremely* uncomfortable for most Lion to implement, this puts her in a deeply awkward position. If Otomo-sama *was* intending/expecting our response... well, he'd be playing a deeper game than we are at that point - which, admittedly, wouldn't be all that surprising. Alternately/additionally, he's using this to test us. What he's testing us on? Hard to say. We'd have to play a deeper game than him to figure that out with certainty, and Otomo-sama is just plain better at this than we are.
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It's amazing how both sides are telling the other something that would be an insult to themselves, but a compliment when taken by the other.
- Location
- Canada
Would it be a good idea to release some suspect who was involved in the incidents, and just follow him around to see where he goes? Might that be a technique we might use?
Yes, but going suggesting it like that could be constructed as calling the magistrate incompetent for not having considered it before or, even worse, that either she or one of her subordinates are part of said treason, and that is not something we could get away with as it currently stands.