In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I dunno. You may have a point, but it seems weird to completely commit ourselves like this so early. I mean, aren't things usually going to be a little slow?
Also, as a Scorpion, or at least for most Scorpion-style diplomacy, committing too early seems like it'd really be a mistake. We can't really say no here, you're right, so maybe we should just say 'Yes.'
But it seems as if we're going to be tying our hands to the wheel for the rest of the Arc of the Quest.
Normally, I think so, but everyone seems to be rushing at this Winter Court.
*shrug* We were going to spend a fair amount of time interacting with the Crane and trying to figure out what they're up to anyway. So, we're basically just agreeing to do something we were doing to do anyway.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Hmm, they'll be keeping any such alliance totally secret until the end of the Winter Court, right? If so, that's a little better, because we can pretend nothing has changed, whereas if ANYONE knows about this...
*sighs*
[X] Yes.
Given his insistence on discretion, I rather doubt that he's going to announce anything like that anytime soon. Quite possibly he's not even going to announce it at the end of the Winter Court, and the Scorpion will just quietly get their embassy a few months afterwards.
Discretion cuts both ways as well. We're agreeing, but if later we pretend this never happened, what proof has he got that we ever even met him, let alone agreed to anything? This isn't an unbreakable pact. Breaking it would have consequences, but it's definitely an option.
Also, since nothing is set in stone yet, there is an opening to renegotiate the agreement, if our superiors decide an embassy is not something they want. Off the top of my head, the ambassadors would easily become hostages should hostilities flare up. And we're currently an obvious choice to include on the staff, though that will probably change, too.
Hmm, come to think of it, would establishing mutual embassies, and the warming of relations that it implies, be something that get sealed with a marriage pact? As I understand, while we talked about it a lot, inter-clan marriages are basically special occasions only because they complicate loyalties.
The fact that our favour is going to happen after the court could be a small reason for concern. We don't have any proof Genji promised us an embassy either, so they could decide to stiff us after the Crane situation is resolved.
So, I'll vote:
[X] Yes.
I don't really feel any reason to vote for anything more elaborate. Unless anyone can think of something else we would like to discuss with Genji while we have his ear?
Also, since nothing is set in stone yet, there is an opening to renegotiate the agreement, if our superiors decide an embassy is not something they want. Off the top of my head, the ambassadors would easily become hostages should hostilities flare up. And we're currently an obvious choice to include on the staff, though that will probably change, too.
Hmm, come to think of it, would establishing mutual embassies, and the warming of relations that it implies, be something that get sealed with a marriage pact? As I understand, while we talked about it a lot, inter-clan marriages are basically special occasions only because they complicate loyalties.
The fact that our favour is going to happen after the court could be a small reason for concern. We don't have any proof Genji promised us an embassy either, so they could decide to stiff us after the Crane situation is resolved.
So, I'll vote:
[X] Yes.
I don't really feel any reason to vote for anything more elaborate. Unless anyone can think of something else we would like to discuss with Genji while we have his ear?
You sort of take your brain and do a twisty loopy squeezy thing. Though I'm not really sure I'm much good at it either.[i spent ages trying to put this into formal language and then gave up and just wrote the basics down, i have no idea how you guys manage ]
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[X] Yes, but the embassy should be made public during the next event, as to allow us time to better work on the details
[x] Ask for allowances for Scorpion servants and bushis to work for the ambassador
[x] Try to get some protection for couriers from and going to Scorpion land
[x] Clearly material for the use of the embassy should be exempt from Tariffs.
If we tell people of this embassy from the get go, we will be able to exert more influence on the other clans and we dissociate it from any results in our help with the Crane.
Not only that, but in a negotiation you never start from your better proposal, this means that we can get more or at least the same, for less on our part.
[x] Ask for allowances for Scorpion servants and bushis to work for the ambassador
[x] Try to get some protection for couriers from and going to Scorpion land
[x] Clearly material for the use of the embassy should be exempt from Tariffs.
If we tell people of this embassy from the get go, we will be able to exert more influence on the other clans and we dissociate it from any results in our help with the Crane.
Not only that, but in a negotiation you never start from your better proposal, this means that we can get more or at least the same, for less on our part.
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Oh, @Maugan Ra, an off topic question: What's Naoto's immediate family situation like? Are his parents and grandparents alive, does he have siblings or cousins he's close to? That kind of thing. Any close friendships? Exes? It's not really pertinent to the current situation, but I think establishing his background would help strenghten Naoto's characterisation further.
EtchedSteel
*mumble mumble*
- Location
- Lima. Peru
[x] Yes
I wasn't sure of what to vote so I had to reread a bit of what happened so far in the quest.
Found this:
What Ikoma Genji wants isn't something that deviates from our duty and role in this winter court. What he wants is to confirm his suspiction and prevent whatever this delegation do ends up escaling into a war. War I'm certain no one wants1, not in times where most efforts are into picking up what's left of the Empire after the 2nd day of thunder.
What he's offering, even, is something that we will find a lot of use in the long term. Specially because we want to keep Beiden pass accesible for out clan yay.
I may be wrong, or perhaps too naive because I don't see any other meaning on the Ikoma's words, but it's what I'm getting from him, so there's my vote.
1: One could say the Matsu are the exception because of course, most Matsu wants a war.
I wasn't sure of what to vote so I had to reread a bit of what happened so far in the quest.
Found this:
What Ikoma Genji wants isn't something that deviates from our duty and role in this winter court. What he wants is to confirm his suspiction and prevent whatever this delegation do ends up escaling into a war. War I'm certain no one wants1, not in times where most efforts are into picking up what's left of the Empire after the 2nd day of thunder.
What he's offering, even, is something that we will find a lot of use in the long term. Specially because we want to keep Beiden pass accesible for out clan yay.
I may be wrong, or perhaps too naive because I don't see any other meaning on the Ikoma's words, but it's what I'm getting from him, so there's my vote.
1: One could say the Matsu are the exception because of course, most Matsu wants a war.
[X] Yes
Making the embassy public seems like a kind of horrible mistake, given that public statement like that would ruin our ability to build a rapport with and gain information from the circles the Crane delegation is moving in.
I wouldn't worry too much about him outright reneging on the deal anyways, given that, even if he doesn't mind making some enemies, the hit to his honour would probably be kind of severe for a Lion.
Unless he's from the Lion's Shadow, but even then we're explicitly here to win his goodwill, so I actually wouldn't care too much if he tries to downscale the reward as things go on as long as he's still happy with us.
The only point where I'd actually refuse to work with him is more or less the same point where I'd argue to cut our losses and break our word, which means the only additional harm in agreeing here would be the hit to our (to a Scorpion relatively unimportant) Honour.
Making the embassy public seems like a kind of horrible mistake, given that public statement like that would ruin our ability to build a rapport with and gain information from the circles the Crane delegation is moving in.
I wouldn't worry too much about him outright reneging on the deal anyways, given that, even if he doesn't mind making some enemies, the hit to his honour would probably be kind of severe for a Lion.
Unless he's from the Lion's Shadow, but even then we're explicitly here to win his goodwill, so I actually wouldn't care too much if he tries to downscale the reward as things go on as long as he's still happy with us.
The only point where I'd actually refuse to work with him is more or less the same point where I'd argue to cut our losses and break our word, which means the only additional harm in agreeing here would be the hit to our (to a Scorpion relatively unimportant) Honour.
- Location
- London, England
I haven't defined that as of yet. I think I might throw in a scene later on where someone else asks you about your family so that people can help me define it.
I truly believe that in making the embassy public the pros supplant the cons.
The first is that the Matsu will not be able to rescind the offer without losing face.
The second is that we will became someone of interest for many of the other delegations that will be able to come to us, for help dealing with the Matsu.
We will also became much more important for the Crane, as they will have to once again change their strategy or be left behind.
Yes we will became bigger targets, but it offer more gains in the long run.
Edit. And for those that fear that the Crane will distance themselves from us, they can't without losing face. After all, the already agreed to help us develop our calligraphy and poetic skills.
The first is that the Matsu will not be able to rescind the offer without losing face.
The second is that we will became someone of interest for many of the other delegations that will be able to come to us, for help dealing with the Matsu.
We will also became much more important for the Crane, as they will have to once again change their strategy or be left behind.
Yes we will became bigger targets, but it offer more gains in the long run.
Edit. And for those that fear that the Crane will distance themselves from us, they can't without losing face. After all, the already agreed to help us develop our calligraphy and poetic skills.
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Bonus - On Scorpion Honour
- Location
- London, England
On Honour and the Scorpion
So, I figured I should probably sit down and actually outline how Honour is going to work in this Quest, which is an extension of my own views on the topic. Note that this is kind of homebrew to a certain extent, because the rules can never hope to really encompass an entire philosophy of life followed by hundreds of thousands of people in various divergent ways.
In a mechanical sense, your Honour score is a numerical value from 0-10, with 0 being 'Honourless Dog' and 10 being 'Strength of a Thousand Ancestors'. Naoto currently has an Honour score of 4.2, which is described as 'What is Expected'.
Gains and losses in Honour are awarded in 'Points', each of which is worth 0.1 Honour on the overall scale. Different acts and behaviours give or cost you different amounts of Honour points. Notably, there is an increasing gradient in play - at higher levels of Honour, positive actions award fewer points and negative ones cost more.
Mechanically, the primary benefit of Honour is that you can add your score to any rolls made to resist fear, intimidation or temptation. It is also your one source of 'rerolls' - if you fail a roll, you may choose to use your Honour rank as rolled and kept dice on a reroll in order to try and succeed despite the initial failure. It can also be perceived to a certain degree by other samurai (generally by succeeding on a TN 30 test of Lore: Bushido/Awareness, though I would lower the target number if you observe the target at moments of moral choice).
What is Honour?
Honour is, essentially, your adherence to a personal code of conduct, and the strength you draw from that. It is the foundation which supports and reinforces your overall character, the integrity and principles that make you who you are. In many ways it represents your efforts to realize your ideal self image, and be the person that you want to be.
In Rokugan, the default set of principles for a samurai is the Code of Bushido, though others (such as the Code of the Wasp or the Way of Shourido) do exist. A thousand years of social convention and reinforcement have established 'adhering to Bushido' as being all but indistinguishable from 'being a good person' for the samurai, and even those who do not follow all of its tenants do not usually disagree with them - the Scorpion still think of themselves as villains for their constant violation of honour, they simply believe that such is a necessary sacrifice.
So far, Naoto is receiving numerous increases in Honour because he has been acting according to a strong set of personal beliefs. He is loyal to his clan, he shows kindness to those below him, and he is civil even to those who think themselves his enemy. These contribute to his self image and inform his choices - you will note, for example, that several times an update has made mention of Naoto being tempted by or considering a course of action but deciding against it because it conflicts with his duty. The more he resists such temptation, the easier it becomes, represented by adding his Honour rank to resisting Temptation rolls.
Why do the Scorpion distrust Honour?
The Scorpion and the Crab are the two Clans who start with low Honour scores - generally 2.5 for their Bushi and Courtiers. This not because they are bad people (though individual members of each Clan can be), it is because they are pragmatists. The Crab have no time for pretty speeches or shining ideals on the Wall, and the Scorpion define themselves as being willing to dirty their hands with the unpleasant but necessary tasks to keep the Empire running.
The Scorpion in particular disdain those with a rigidly inflexible moral code because they believe it will constrain them and prevent them from following or even considering certain courses of actions. In the Courts, playing dirty often works, and the Clan of Secrets has no patience for those who would shun a viable strategy due to their own squeamishness. This is where their concept of Junshin comes from, and why they instinctively distrust those who think of themselves as highly principled. Bayushi Yojiro is a fine example, because when the Clan ordered him to destroy a man on their orders despite the fact that said man had done nothing wrong, he hesitated. The fact that he went through with it afterwards means relatively little.
That said, the Scorpion are also the Clan of Loyalty. They hold to the virtue of duty/loyalty with an almost maniacal fervour, and it informs the basic moral code that all true Scorpion abide by. If Naoto can demonstrate that his personal code and increasingly high Honour score supports his loyalty rather than conflicting with it, the Scorpion are likely to embrace and support him just as much or even more than any other Clan would.
It is a narrow road to walk and one easy to falter on, but if you can pull it off you'll earn the respect and admiration of all the Clans, not just your own.
So, I figured I should probably sit down and actually outline how Honour is going to work in this Quest, which is an extension of my own views on the topic. Note that this is kind of homebrew to a certain extent, because the rules can never hope to really encompass an entire philosophy of life followed by hundreds of thousands of people in various divergent ways.
In a mechanical sense, your Honour score is a numerical value from 0-10, with 0 being 'Honourless Dog' and 10 being 'Strength of a Thousand Ancestors'. Naoto currently has an Honour score of 4.2, which is described as 'What is Expected'.
Gains and losses in Honour are awarded in 'Points', each of which is worth 0.1 Honour on the overall scale. Different acts and behaviours give or cost you different amounts of Honour points. Notably, there is an increasing gradient in play - at higher levels of Honour, positive actions award fewer points and negative ones cost more.
Mechanically, the primary benefit of Honour is that you can add your score to any rolls made to resist fear, intimidation or temptation. It is also your one source of 'rerolls' - if you fail a roll, you may choose to use your Honour rank as rolled and kept dice on a reroll in order to try and succeed despite the initial failure. It can also be perceived to a certain degree by other samurai (generally by succeeding on a TN 30 test of Lore: Bushido/Awareness, though I would lower the target number if you observe the target at moments of moral choice).
What is Honour?
Honour is, essentially, your adherence to a personal code of conduct, and the strength you draw from that. It is the foundation which supports and reinforces your overall character, the integrity and principles that make you who you are. In many ways it represents your efforts to realize your ideal self image, and be the person that you want to be.
In Rokugan, the default set of principles for a samurai is the Code of Bushido, though others (such as the Code of the Wasp or the Way of Shourido) do exist. A thousand years of social convention and reinforcement have established 'adhering to Bushido' as being all but indistinguishable from 'being a good person' for the samurai, and even those who do not follow all of its tenants do not usually disagree with them - the Scorpion still think of themselves as villains for their constant violation of honour, they simply believe that such is a necessary sacrifice.
So far, Naoto is receiving numerous increases in Honour because he has been acting according to a strong set of personal beliefs. He is loyal to his clan, he shows kindness to those below him, and he is civil even to those who think themselves his enemy. These contribute to his self image and inform his choices - you will note, for example, that several times an update has made mention of Naoto being tempted by or considering a course of action but deciding against it because it conflicts with his duty. The more he resists such temptation, the easier it becomes, represented by adding his Honour rank to resisting Temptation rolls.
Why do the Scorpion distrust Honour?
The Scorpion and the Crab are the two Clans who start with low Honour scores - generally 2.5 for their Bushi and Courtiers. This not because they are bad people (though individual members of each Clan can be), it is because they are pragmatists. The Crab have no time for pretty speeches or shining ideals on the Wall, and the Scorpion define themselves as being willing to dirty their hands with the unpleasant but necessary tasks to keep the Empire running.
The Scorpion in particular disdain those with a rigidly inflexible moral code because they believe it will constrain them and prevent them from following or even considering certain courses of actions. In the Courts, playing dirty often works, and the Clan of Secrets has no patience for those who would shun a viable strategy due to their own squeamishness. This is where their concept of Junshin comes from, and why they instinctively distrust those who think of themselves as highly principled. Bayushi Yojiro is a fine example, because when the Clan ordered him to destroy a man on their orders despite the fact that said man had done nothing wrong, he hesitated. The fact that he went through with it afterwards means relatively little.
That said, the Scorpion are also the Clan of Loyalty. They hold to the virtue of duty/loyalty with an almost maniacal fervour, and it informs the basic moral code that all true Scorpion abide by. If Naoto can demonstrate that his personal code and increasingly high Honour score supports his loyalty rather than conflicting with it, the Scorpion are likely to embrace and support him just as much or even more than any other Clan would.
It is a narrow road to walk and one easy to falter on, but if you can pull it off you'll earn the respect and admiration of all the Clans, not just your own.
I don't think our clan will have a problem with us acquiring honour, as long as we're willing to throw it away when asked. If we end up getting high honour (we're not there yet), they'll probably test us like they did Yojiro.
- Location
- London, England
Pretty much. If you have a high Honour score at the end of this arc, your superiors are likely to arrange a test for you to determine if you're Junshin or one of those exceptionally rare individuals who can balance their duty and their personal integrity. The former leads to effective banishment and reduced future prospects, the latter leads to promotion and respect.
It's essentially the path of High Risk, High Reward.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
[X] Yes
The thing we need to keep in mind is that THE TRADE MUST FLOW. The Matsu have something our clan values a lot, and as long as they have that thing, it's in our interests to keep them sweet.
Which, IMO means that if it comes down to putting the boots to the Cranes or the Lions (at this particular time, in this particular place) we need to go with the Lions.
The thing we need to keep in mind is that THE TRADE MUST FLOW. The Matsu have something our clan values a lot, and as long as they have that thing, it's in our interests to keep them sweet.
Which, IMO means that if it comes down to putting the boots to the Cranes or the Lions (at this particular time, in this particular place) we need to go with the Lions.
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
[X] Yes
Been waffling for a while, but well...it's really a big deal to be able to get the embassy in Shiro Matsu.
Been waffling for a while, but well...it's really a big deal to be able to get the embassy in Shiro Matsu.
2.9 - Geisha House Diplomacy
- Location
- London, England
There is no real choice in the matter. Your mission here is to serve as the Clan's representative to the Matsu and to make sure that passage through Beiden Pass remains free and unobstructed. What Ikoma Genji is offering you will accomplish all of those goals in a single move, while also offering your Clan a powerful position of influence not just with the Lion, but also with every other Clan that wishes to deal with the Matsu themselves.
Judging by the knowing look in his eyes, the Ikoma is perfectly aware of just how valuable his offer is. With such a thing he could almost extort your delegation for almost any kind of price he could think of, but where it would be reasonable to reject the proposal for having an unbearable set of conditions attached, you do not relish the idea of telling your lords that you turned down such an advantage for mere convenience. No, you are left with little choice but to accept and support the Ikoma in his mission for however long it takes.
For a moment, you wonder what is going on behind the scenes in the Lion Clan to justify such a thing. Some sort of ongoing dispute between the Ikoma and the Matsu, perhaps? Something to mention in your report to your superiors, perhaps... but not of immediate interest. Right now, your focus must be on securing the offered alliance before it can be withdrawn.
"That sounds like an excellent idea, Ikoma-sama." You say, and for all that the Lion has maneuvered you into this you cannot deny that it remains an appealing prospect. "I am sure my lords will be most interested in establishing such a point of contact with the Matsu family. Of course, such an arrangement should be made at an auspicious time, after we have demonstrated that inter-Clan cooperation can achieve real and lasting results."
"I am delighted to hear it, Soshi-san." Ikoma Genji says warmly. "And I quite agree about the timing. Good news, and your superior's favourable impression, will make convincing my own lord of the virtue of this idea much easier."
The two of you pick up your sake dishes, lift them in salute to each other, and drink to seal the deal. From there, the conversation turns to less serious topics, as you discuss history and art to the accompanying music of the beautiful geisha.
-/-
Soshi Naoto has established a relationship with prominent members of two different Clans and managed to defuse a potentially serious conflict with minimal shame to all involved. The lessons he has learned in the process will stand him in good stead for the future, and he gains five experience points as a result.
How do you spend your experience?
- [ ] Write in
QM's note - The next scene is intended to be the poetry and calligraphy lessons with Doji Mariko. A good performance there will award you with ranks in the relevant skills free of charge.
Please indicate any measures or preparation you wish to make ahead of your meeting with the Crane.
- [ ] Write in
Judging by the knowing look in his eyes, the Ikoma is perfectly aware of just how valuable his offer is. With such a thing he could almost extort your delegation for almost any kind of price he could think of, but where it would be reasonable to reject the proposal for having an unbearable set of conditions attached, you do not relish the idea of telling your lords that you turned down such an advantage for mere convenience. No, you are left with little choice but to accept and support the Ikoma in his mission for however long it takes.
For a moment, you wonder what is going on behind the scenes in the Lion Clan to justify such a thing. Some sort of ongoing dispute between the Ikoma and the Matsu, perhaps? Something to mention in your report to your superiors, perhaps... but not of immediate interest. Right now, your focus must be on securing the offered alliance before it can be withdrawn.
"That sounds like an excellent idea, Ikoma-sama." You say, and for all that the Lion has maneuvered you into this you cannot deny that it remains an appealing prospect. "I am sure my lords will be most interested in establishing such a point of contact with the Matsu family. Of course, such an arrangement should be made at an auspicious time, after we have demonstrated that inter-Clan cooperation can achieve real and lasting results."
"I am delighted to hear it, Soshi-san." Ikoma Genji says warmly. "And I quite agree about the timing. Good news, and your superior's favourable impression, will make convincing my own lord of the virtue of this idea much easier."
The two of you pick up your sake dishes, lift them in salute to each other, and drink to seal the deal. From there, the conversation turns to less serious topics, as you discuss history and art to the accompanying music of the beautiful geisha.
-/-
Soshi Naoto has established a relationship with prominent members of two different Clans and managed to defuse a potentially serious conflict with minimal shame to all involved. The lessons he has learned in the process will stand him in good stead for the future, and he gains five experience points as a result.
How do you spend your experience?
- [ ] Write in
QM's note - The next scene is intended to be the poetry and calligraphy lessons with Doji Mariko. A good performance there will award you with ranks in the relevant skills free of charge.
Please indicate any measures or preparation you wish to make ahead of your meeting with the Crane.
- [ ] Write in
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
How do you spend your experience?
- [X] Save it
- [X] Save it
Saving for Reflexes 3, unless it turns out that we can't acquire the XP needed before then.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
Hmm, what does anyone know about poetry in L5R? I mean, we could spend some time before going there thinking of interesting topics or coming up with a few clever turns of phrases. If it's anything like Haiku, it relies on delicate, careful choice of the perfect words...
Which, to be fair, a lot of poetry does. Poetry isn't the weapon of choice for authors who are literary axe murderers...except for all of the overwrought poetry, but hey.
So having in mind a few clever phrases or powerful images is, well...
It's one way to build a poem, because a poem isn't like a book, or a story. A poem isn't like a painting, either. A poem is a thing in and of itself. It is a vase, and its very construction, its very form, is its substance.
Which, to be fair, a lot of poetry does. Poetry isn't the weapon of choice for authors who are literary axe murderers...except for all of the overwrought poetry, but hey.
So having in mind a few clever phrases or powerful images is, well...
It's one way to build a poem, because a poem isn't like a book, or a story. A poem isn't like a painting, either. A poem is a thing in and of itself. It is a vase, and its very construction, its very form, is its substance.
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Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
I'm not knowledgeable enough in the L5R system to offer intelligent suggestions on how to spend the Exp ("ALL POINTS INTO SWORDING MATSU DAIMYO WAIFUUUUU!" probably doesn't qualify as an intelligent suggestion) but as far as preparations go we definitely need to touch base with the other Scorpions about our deal with Genji and inform them what's up with the Crane delegation.