Remove ads

In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

Reader mode
Honestly, I think it's best to be honest and tell him we don't know, but also tell him that we will be spending time with the head of the Crane delegation. If he wants to know, we can work on finding out for him.

Of course, if we do find out the truth and it's something we don't want the Lion to know, we can then just lie/pretend we know nothing to the karo.

That being said, we should probably start making a lot of Lore checks so that we have a better idea of what's going on. Is Matsu Hiroru still around?
 
We could reveal that the Crane representative basically ambushed us at our go game with one of her subordinates; he might be able to draw some conclusions from that. But ultimately, yeah; we can't really offer more than speculations at this point.
 
They seem to be rather rushed, specially with how they are essentially already playing hard ball, in Crane courtier terms at least. It might be just because our boss made a mess of things, but it might also mean they have some other cause for urgency, or at least a reason to consider the outcome of this court far more important than most others here, enough to go double or nothing.

Furthermore, as they are not the ones that were expected to come, it might also signify inexperience, or perhaps they picked one of their most direct and straightforward courtiers, but that second one feels a bit unlikely.

Finally, given their actions so far, they might have a completely different "win condition" here than most other clans. Most delegates in court are here with some variation of the instructions "do not offend them too much, keep the pass open", but it might not be necessarily true for the Crane, or at least for a faction within the Crane that might have managed to get their courtiers sent here. What might be their goal is a rather interesting question though, and one that I don't quite feel confident enough to speculate upon yet.
 
Hm... someone mentioned a civil war within the Crane; how far off is that? Because if it's relatively soon, we might be seeing some signs of it, here.

One possibility I could think of, both for what happened and why the Crane are being so aggressive/rushed, could be that the original delegation was replaced, along with their orders. So, instead of keeping things peacefully and repairing relations, the delegation instead is tasked with, more or less, slapping the Lion in the face as much as possible.
The rush could be because they know that the situation will come back to the Crane leadership soon enough, and want to cause as much damage as they can until then; both to demonstrate the Crane's political power, and perhaps as a way of forcing the Clan Champion's hand; because the relations with the Lion have been soured that much in the time they had available, and/or because the Clan Champion might not be able to publicly admit to this blunder without losing large amounts of Face.

Not sure how likely that is, though, or if Naoto would know any of this.
 
Kelenas said:
We could reveal that the Crane representative basically ambushed us at our go game with one of her subordinates; he might be able to draw some conclusions from that. But ultimately, yeah; we can't really offer more than speculations at this point.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That was in public so he probably already knows, more or less.


Possibilities include:

-Ikoma is lying to drive a wedge between us and the Crane.

-The Crane Champion is doing something clever, and is using his connection with his former kenjutsu instructor to feed the Lion misinformation.

-Someone subverted his orders, there is a essentially a rebellion within the Crane. Meta-knowledge of the Crane Civil War might indicate that this is happening, but I wouldn't trust meta knowledge since the QM has stated he is diverging from cannon. For the best anyway, excessive meta knowledge leads to weird voting behaviour.

-Something happened to change the Crane Champion's mind about the Lion that the Ikoma doesn't know about. Possibly someone impersonating Lions caused an incident.

-The Crane Champion was swayed to act against the Lion by overwhelming sentiment within his clan.
 
Last edited:
Jaertin said:
That was in public so he probably already knows, more or less.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He might know, but the only Lion we noticed there were Lion officers playing go. I don't think Lion officers are likely to listen in on people's conversations (especially not when they're busy playing go), and even if some of them were listening, I doubt they'd deem our conversation with the Crane interesting/important enough to report it to anyone.
 
Last edited:
Bommelom said:
He might know, but the only Lion we noticed there were Lion officers playing go. I don't think Lion officers are likely to listen in on people's conversations (especially not when they're busy playing go), and even if some of them were listening, I doubt they'd deem our conversation with the Crane interesting/important enough to report it to anyone.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am assuming that Ikoma placed his observers everywhere he could, meaning that anything interesting that happens in a public place, he should be assumed to know about.

And a meeting between the leader of the Crane delegations, who he is already suspicious of, and one of the Scorpion would be interesting enough, I think.
 
Jaertin said:
I am assuming that Ikoma placed his observers everywhere he could, meaning that anything interesting that happens in a public place, he should be assumed to know about.

And a meeting between the leader of the Crane delegations, who he is already suspicious of, and one of the Scorpion would be interesting enough, I think.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I agree that he's very likely to know about the meeting, but his observers might not have heard exactly what we were talking about.
 
Draft of a vote, though I'd like that lore check before I settle on anything.
Eh, it'll do I think.

[X] "There are many possibilities here. But the most important piece of information is whether this is happening with Crane-dono's consent or not. It is possible that he has put the needs and desires of his Clan above his personal relationships. I do not know enough about the man to so accurately assess his character. The more sinister possibility is that the intended Crane Delegation has been and replaced without his knowledge.
"Knowing how the Crane are acting in other Winter Courts would help distinguish whether the Crane are acting cohesively, or if only this one, or a small number of delegations have gone rogue. Cleanly replacing all of them would be nigh impossible, after all. I can arrange discrete inquiries to the Scorpion courts as I am sure you have already done for the Lions. However, it will take some time for the answers to reach us.
"The other option is of course to look into the Crane delegation directly, which I find myself in a good position to do."

We lay out our logical reasoning. Identify what we could contribute to the situation. Then pointedly don't offer to do it for him. We aren't his agent. Let's see how he tries to convince us, and what he offers. It should tell us a lot about him and his view of us.

Edit: Changed the wording in the first paragraph slightly.

Edit2: Another small change to phrasing in first paragraph. Actually voted.

Edit3: the editening: Rephrased second paragraph a bit.
 
Last edited:
Pity that the Crane Lore roll ended up as one of the lower ones. Could a heraldry check of the Crane delegates be useful here?
 
Sirrocco said:
I notice a thing.

Specifically, while gman was somewhat wrong in his assessment of my last write-in, I was *more* wrong. Also, screwing up two times in a row is one of those things you're supposed to take as a *sign*... even if others do manage to prevent you from actually damaging yourself with it.

I suspect I've been pushing myself too hard to come up with answers for this quest lately, and the quality of the answers I generate has suffered as a result. I'll be stepping back for a bit - tossing in a few thoughts from time to time, but no in-depth anything, and certainly not producing any write-ins. The thoughts I *do* provide should also take this as a caveat.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Don't worry about this too hard. We're inevitably going to fuck up some time. If the majority of us voted with you, it's because the majority of us had a good think about your vote and agreed with your reasoning. If it turns out to be wrong we're just as much to blame for not thinking about it hard enough.

Anyway, I'm not sure you should count the seppukku thing. The Rokugani mindset is alien. The QM was right to point out something that we OOC didn't realise, but Naoto definitely would.

Edit:

Bommelom said:
I agree that he's very likely to know about the meeting, but his observers might not have heard exactly what we were talking about.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We really didn't talk about anything that important, though? The important information is that we did meet, that we acted friendly, and that we parted on good terms. That tells more than enough, even without the specifics of what we talked about.
 
Last edited:
We have only a cursory knowledge of the Crane situation. .. we can infer by the information that was given to us that some, if not most of, our previous knowledge about the situation was wrong.

He is giving us some information and asking us to help him dis cover what is happening.

He is also allowing us to infer that if we help him we will be helping the champion of the Crane.

How much of this is truth. Is not for us to discern at this point.

We should make a non committed commentary about this information, alluding to some possible reasons for the change in posture, but giving the idea that we would try to discover what happened during our games.

Of course without making any promises or expecting any reward, just as a intelectual game.

We can't make any allegation of false information, as the source has more honor and status than us.

PS we also were threatened in a veiled way, at the same time he offered to help our position.
 
Last edited:
Bastur2 said:
We have only a cursory knowledge of the Crane situation. .. we can infer by the information that was given to us that some, if not most of, our previous knowledge about the situation was wrong.

He is giving us some information and asking us to help him dis cover what is happening.

He is also allowing us to infer that if we help him we will be helping the champion of the Crane.

How much of this is truth. Is not for us to discern at this point.

We should make a non committed commentary about this information, alluding to some possible reasons for the change in posture, but giving the idea that we would try to discover what happened during our games.

Of course without making any promises or expecting any reward, just as a intelectual game.

We can't make any allegation of false information, as the source has more honor and status than us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think we should agree to help him in the end, but decide whether we really should later. Pretend to trust then verify :p
What reward he is willing to offer, or what threat to make is valuable information about him in it's own right.

PS we also were threatened in a veiled way, at the same time he offered to help our position.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think I caught that, what are you referring to?
 
Jaertin said:
I don't think I caught that, what are you referring to?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
at the start of the post, when he mentioned that his lord listen to her advisers.

He was saying that he could make our life very hard or easy. Would she act in the advice? Unknown, but at the same time if it is known that she listen to them, he can act in her instead to some degree. .. and if it is in direction to what the table want...

He was telling us that he could undermine our mission or even help salvage it, if she goes the other way.
 
Last edited:
Jaertin said:
Draft of a vote, though I'd like that lore check before I settle on anything.

[ ] "There are many possibilities here. But the most important piece of information is whether this is happening with Crane-dono's consent or not. It is possible that
he has put the needs and desires of his Clan above his personal relationships. I do not know enough about the man to so accurately assess his character. The more sinister possibility is that the intended Crane Delegation has been disposed off and replaced without his knowledge.
"Knowing how the Crane are acting in other Winter Courts would help distinguish whether the Crane are acting cohesively, or only one or a few delegations are rogue, since cleanly replacing all of them would be nigh impossible. I can send inquiries to the Scorpion courts as I am sure you have done for the Lions. However, this will take some time.
"The other option is of course to look into the Crane delegation directly, which I find myself in a position to do."

We lay out our logical reasoning. Identify what we could contribute to the situation. Then pointedly don't offer to do it for him. We aren't his agent. Let's see how he tries to convince us, and what he offers. It should tell us a lot about him and his view of us.

Edit: Changed the wording in the first paragraph slightly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd cut the last part, no reason to explicitely volunteer ourselves to look into them, at least not now and much less to the Lion of all clans. We want to be friendly enough with the Lion but we are not subordinate to them or really have any reason to go out of our way to help either without extra cause.

Speaking of which, we probably should ask later to our boss if we want to pay actual peacemaker between the two clans or if it's interest of the Scorpion to to, ahem, "mention less charitable possible interpretations of actions taken by the other in ways that aren't entirely conducent to good relationship between said clans".

Edit: I'd also cut this bit:
It is possible that
he has put the needs and desires of his Clan above his personal relationships. I do not know enough about the man to so accurately assess his character. The more sinister possibility is that the intended Crane Delegation has been disposed off and replaced without his knowledge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Maybe keep that we don't know enough about him, but for most part I'd avoid speculating on the specifics of this, specially if we don't want to make the Ikoma more paranoid and less generous towards the Crane than he already is, at least in terms of "the delegation got disposed and replaced". A bit too much to even hypothesize about the possibility (at least in public with others not from our clan) without evidence of it.
 
Last edited:
"I confess, it is nice to be appreciated." The Karo says with a broad smile, pausing for a moment to enjoy the music. "Which is not to say that my own lord does not, by any means. Matsu-dono is a keen student of Leadership, and prefers to rely on the counsel of valued experts and specialists rather than dismissing the importance of any areas she herself is inexpert in."

"A wise lord is a blessing to her people." You respond, acknowldging both the surface information about the Daimyo and the thinly veiled warning against underestimating her. Genji did not come out and say that she knows about this meeting, but the implication is there, which could mean many different things.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Re-reading this particular piece of the scene, in addition to the stated reasons and the implied minor threat I mentioned before.

We also can perceive a certain amount of ... I would say disdain? For his lord.
It could mean any number of things, but the different intonation of the word leadership is telling.

More telling if you consider that he told us that she is a "student of" not a "master of" or even that she is a leader.

He chose to say that she is still learning how to be a "leader" maybe by the Ikoma standards.
Another possibility is that he is not the valued adviser that he is painting hinder as, as ano Ikoma would allow the travesty that was the opening of the court.


With this in mind, I would say that the information that he is bringing us is valid, but he has way less power than is implied and that he need us to do the investigation for him.
 
Felius said:
I'd cut the last part, no reason to explicitely volunteer ourselves to look into them, at least not now and much less to the Lion of all clans. We want to be friendly enough with the Lion but we are not subordinate to them or really have any reason to go out of our way to help either without extra cause.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're not volunteering, we're acknowledging that in light of his information we're definitely going to be looking into it, and basically giving him the option to make us an offer. Ultimately our mission here is with the Matsu and the Lion. If we can get Ikoma Genji in our corner on trade and diplomacy we have basically accomplished our primary mission here. This trade of favours is just too damn valuable to pass up. Which he probably knows *sigh*

Speaking of which, we probably should ask later to our boss if we want to pay actual peacemaker between the two clans or if it's interest of the Scorpion to to, ahem, "mention less charitable possible interpretations of actions taken by the other in ways that aren't entirely conducent to good relationship between said clans".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Definitely going to be an interesting briefing that. I'm looking forward to it.

Edit: I'd also cut this bit:

Maybe keep that we don't know enough about him, but for most part I'd avoid speculating on the specifics of this, specially if we don't want to make the Ikoma more paranoid and less generous towards the Crane than he already is, at least in terms of "the delegation got disposed and replaced". A bit too much to even hypothesize about the possibility (at least in public with others not from our clan) without evidence of it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
These are all things he definitely has already thought of, so they aren't going to spook him. Acknowledging them as such is basically a subtle compliment to his insight. We aren't likely to think of something he already hasn't considered, since he's had since yesterday to mull over this information, while we're thinking on our feet.

It could do with some rewording to be less specific, without getting too weasel wordy, since if we get it way wrong we look foolish. But it's the best I have right now. If you have a suggestion please go ahead and use what you like from my vote and throw away the rest.
 
Last edited:
[x] I see what you mean, this truly is an enigma.

[x] Far for one as low as me to contest the information that was given to you, but it seems that there is some divergence in what the Crane should had done and what they did, a very strange behavior, if you allow me to say.

[x] I will have to ponder this a little more, as I, for now, have no new insight to offer you.

[x] Did I mention that I played GO against a member of the Crane Delegation? The talk was very inspiring and I will probably meet "them" again.

[x] Maybe after I will have some new insight on what could have happened, as I find that Go allows one to get some idea on the mind of one's opponent, don't you agree?

[x] On the other hand, if I can't find in myself to learn anything during GO, I will probably have to content myself with using those meetings to improve my skills.

[x] But that is for the future, no?

[x] Now, if you would allow me, I would like to change topics for a little while tough, as I some times find myself with a lack of willing partners to talk with, I always like to get new perspectives about how things are done by others?

[x] Small talk about be identified pass, the story of our clans and etc...

[x] Sip tea and admire the Geisha, when you need to buy yourself time to think.

This is my vote... it is not perfect, but I think this would be a better approach

edit 2 - changed some parts
 
Last edited:
Bastur2 said:
x] Drink your tea as you make the proper sign of consideration for the information that was given to us

[x] I see what you mean, this truly is an enigma.

[x] Drink your tea again

[x] Far for one as low as me to contest the information that was given to you, but it seems that there is some divergence in what the Crane should had done and what they did, a very strange behavior, if you allow me to say.

[x] Finish your cup, as you listen to the music

[x] I will have to pounder this a little more, as i, for now, have no new insight to offer you.

[x] Did I mention that I played go against a member of the Crane Delegation? The talk was very inspiring and I will probably meet "them" again.

[x] Maybe after I will have some new insight on what could have happened, as I find that GO allows one to get some idea on the mind of one's opponent, don't you agree?

[x] fill your cup (or have a Gueisha do it for you, whatever is appropriate for the occasion) and sip it

[x] On the other hand, if I can't find in myself to learn anything during GO, I will probably have to content with improving my skills during those meetings.

[x] But that is for the future, no?

[x] If you would allow me, I would like to change topics for a little while tough, as I some times find myself with a lack of willing partners to talk with, I always like to get new perspectives about how thins are done by others.
[X] small talk about be identified pass, the story of our clans and etc...


This is my vote... it is not perfect, but I think this would be a better aprouch
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Weren't we given sake, rather than tea?
 
Just to explain my idea...

The first part is self explanatory, it is the point in with we say we don't have any information at this time.

The second is were we let him know that we have an in with the Crane and could, if sufficiently motivated, procure this information, offering an Avenue for future meetings.

The third an last part, is where we give our price... knowledge and contacts with people 9f interest in his clan.
 
I like the thrust of Jaertin's vote, even if I feel it's a touch too open about our thoughts on the matter. I don't want Ikoma thinking that we're being paranoid (because the possibility is kinda far-fetched and Doji Mariko is also a known entity for Kuwanan's sensei) but I would suggest that he look at the Winter Courts of other Lions and see if this pattern extends towards other Crane delegations there.
 
A Nation's Virtue said:
I like the thrust of Jaertin's vote, even if I feel it's a touch too open about our thoughts on the matter. I don't want Ikoma thinking that we're being paranoid (because the possibility is kinda far-fetched and Doji Mariko is also a known entity for Kuwanan's sensei) but I would suggest that he look at the Winter Courts of other Lions and see if this pattern extends towards other Crane delegations there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My problem either his vote os that it is too friendly and open.

He is not an ally, he is not our superior, he could be an ally as long as our interests converge.

That vote is giving to much without getting anything in return.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top