All we need to do is not to put honor before our goals and our clan.
In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)
Winged Knight
Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head
- Location
- Texas
Hah hah! Oh boy... Yeah, that's a fun one to answer.
In general, the other Clans don't really understand the Scorpion beyond a superficial level. The Scorpion make no god damn sense to the rank and file and even most of the leaders, and that's because the Scorpion have purposefully gone out of their way to make it so. They will intentionally do things against expectations, like when Naoto accepted the Matsu's apology without rubbing it in his face, purely to sow confusion and throw off people's ability to read their motives. They'll have a few other reasons for what they do, of course, but this is almost always one of them.
And they do this all the time, going on for over one thousand years. Sometimes the Scorpion have suffered catastrophic losses, terrible defeats... And yet when confronted about it they will simply nod their heads, smile and say to their enemies "Yes, it certainly does seem like a predicament. I can't wait to see what happens next." Which makes their foes wary, because what does this masked, smiling Scorpion know that you don't? Why aren't they worried? What secrets are they hiding that might spell my defeat and dishonor?
Everything a Scorpion says is looked at askance because it's believed they've said at least three things where you hear one. This is a reputation they have carefully cultivated over a millennia, such that even if they are telling the complete truth you can't help but wonder... Which means even when they are truly telling you just one thing, they're indulging in this as well. So at minimum, two goals are achieved.
In short, the other Clans think the Scorpion are crazy cunning and often just crazy.
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The court started with the host saying that all guests were enemies.
After, she went and insulted all of them by the kind of gift that was given.
Another guest returned the insult by not giving a present whatsoever with a third giving a painting of a lioness going to die by the hands of scorpions. .
No... it is not the scorpions that are causing trouble.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
[X] Sirrocco
And I agree that if the Scorpions wanted to sabotage this Court, the easiest way would be for them to stand around and do absolutely nothing.
And I agree that if the Scorpions wanted to sabotage this Court, the easiest way would be for them to stand around and do absolutely nothing.
- Location
- London, England
Etiquette/Awareness 6k3 = 24
There's nothing inherently wrong with your proposed write in. Certainly there's nothing there that would immediately trigger a negative reaction from the Lion, setting aside the possibility of personal rather than clan-based bias.
The key point I'm seeing, and the primary difference between yours and gman's proposed responses, is that yours is very certain. You're methodically laying out your analysis of his background, intentions and likely course of action, in the process making a large number of claims and assumptions. Gman, by contrast, provides several potential reasons for the invitation and admits to not be entirely sure which if any of them is correct.
I think the only real potential problem here is that it's a case of double or nothing. You're making firm claims based on limited data - if they work out, great, but even a single error in the course of your analysis will do considerable damage to his perception of your skill and attitude.
L5R doesn't really have a 'Botch' mechanic as far as I know. Given that, it would largely come down to the precise situation.
If you have thought of a potential course of action and want to roll Etiquette or similar to find out if it is a good idea, a failed roll will give you no information.
If you don't know what to do and ask for an etiquette roll to provide you with some hints, then incorrect information from a poor roll is much more likely.
Hm... based on what Maugan Ra just posted, I'd like some sort of compromise between gman's and Sirrocco's votes/plans. Sirrocco's advantage is that it's a bit more specific and extensive in listing the potential reasons for the summon, which should hopefully be helpful in that it makes clear that there's deduction and intellect behind them, rather than just blind guesswork.
On the other hand, gman's has the advantage in greater safety, because it doesn't try to present speculations as fact and thus means we don't look as a fool if we get something wrong, as we're fairly likely to do, IMO.
Overall, I think a plan that takes Sirrocco's overall listing/explanations, but shifts the tone to something more in line with gman's, would be best.
On the other hand, gman's has the advantage in greater safety, because it doesn't try to present speculations as fact and thus means we don't look as a fool if we get something wrong, as we're fairly likely to do, IMO.
Overall, I think a plan that takes Sirrocco's overall listing/explanations, but shifts the tone to something more in line with gman's, would be best.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm much too tired (oh hey isn't this common) to merge things but if the vote's still up tomorrow morning in, say ~12 or so hours then I'll do it. I doubt that'll be the case though.
That sounds familiar. *eyes bed*
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'd go to bed if I could sleep but instead it'll be a full 19 hours awake on 4 asleep and then likely rinse-and-repeat but hey we'll see how it goes
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Considering that I posted a one word right in this is probably going to appear self serving but I think it needs to be said. I think that gman's and Sirrocco's votes are both overly verbose.
They give out too much insight into our motivation/thinking, have relatively high conversational risk for the potential benefit (impress the Ikoma). They are the conversational equivalent of an all out attack. Personally I think our first response until we have a firmer idea of what he wants should be a conversational parry, deflect the query until we have more information. So when he asks us why he has invited the second string of the Scorpion delegation to an out of the way place, we nod politely and give him a single word answer, discretion.
Gives the impression that we will be discrete, avoids the trap of pride (I.e. by not boasting about our great analysis and/or reasoning) and still allows us to do some analysis/reasoning down the track with more information.
They give out too much insight into our motivation/thinking, have relatively high conversational risk for the potential benefit (impress the Ikoma). They are the conversational equivalent of an all out attack. Personally I think our first response until we have a firmer idea of what he wants should be a conversational parry, deflect the query until we have more information. So when he asks us why he has invited the second string of the Scorpion delegation to an out of the way place, we nod politely and give him a single word answer, discretion.
Gives the impression that we will be discrete, avoids the trap of pride (I.e. by not boasting about our great analysis and/or reasoning) and still allows us to do some analysis/reasoning down the track with more information.
Scorpion Courtiers are basically the only ones in the Empire that give a Crane a run for their money and win more often than they lose. The intent is to say we think he can beat Crane...albeit obliquely, but then any karo for Matsu-dono is going to be an old hand at picking up the oblique things that his boss doesn't get.
See if this was a Crab, I might agree with you. But you seem to think discretion isn't guaranteed, it has to be by the nature of the meeting. If we make it public and he denies every doing it, then we are screwed because Rokugani law is hilarious in that high status testimony trumps low status testimony.
Even ignoring that, this is a job interview to be the back channel for the Lion and Scorpion. And as mentioned he is still a Lion, he'll respect honesty here and it'll confuse the hell out of him.
(I will also note that my own vote attributes several possible if obvious reasons and lets him deduce we're reasonably cunning but not that cunning while also showing him the respect he is due.)
So yeah, 'Discretion' works but he's going to think we're a dullard when it comes to anything outside of books. So Phoenix basically and no one wants to be Phoenix!
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
[END GOAL ACQUIRED]
Not yet anyways.
- Location
- London, England
And... calling the vote there. I'll look at getting the next update put together, because I'm getting into the swing of my new job now and it's not quite so tiring.
I'm working for Royal Mail in one of their sorting centers. I want you to imagine just how many packages are sent to family members or ordered from online stores between, say, Black Friday and Christmas. Now imagine your beloved GM having to sort, load and unload all of them in between plotting Rokugani intrigue.
Fun fact! Writing 'Fragile' on your package does absolutely jack shit to make sure we handle it with any more care and attention. Official policy is literally to stand in a central location and throw these packages into the appropriate bags.
I'm working for Royal Mail in one of their sorting centers. I want you to imagine just how many packages are sent to family members or ordered from online stores between, say, Black Friday and Christmas. Now imagine your beloved GM having to sort, load and unload all of them in between plotting Rokugani intrigue.
Fun fact! Writing 'Fragile' on your package does absolutely jack shit to make sure we handle it with any more care and attention. Official policy is literally to stand in a central location and throw these packages into the appropriate bags.
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Your equation of short answers being relevant only to the Crab is disingenuous. Conversationally there can be as much value in leaving things unsaid as said.
You seem to be assuming that it is guaranteed, which is reckless. The nature of the meeting is a request for discretion, I think our answer should confirm our acceptance of this request.
Rumour and innuendo are not formal testimony, which is the way it would be revealed if we where to be indiscrete (which I am suggesting we not be).
And I was going to write a whole lot more but the vote got called so there is very little point.
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
At least the postal service there understands that sorting everyone's mail is a chore, that the workers get stressed out and angry at silly things like handling fragile things like they're fragile
This is why I ship with UPS and/or FedEx. Even though I know it's just as bad.
2.7 - Speaking with Ikoma Genji
- Location
- London, England
You do not answer straight away, for this is a question that deserves a moment of thought. But nor can you simply stare at the Ikoma in silence, for such would be rude and perhaps indicate that you have no answer to give. Instead, you focus on examining your surroundings, for you have never been invited into a private room within a geisha house before.
Everything here is tasteful and designed to be aesthetically pleasing, from the beautifully carved wooden table to the works of art decorating the walls. Distantly you can hear the sound of friendly conversation and laughter, but it almost seems to be part of a different world - indeed, such might be the intended effect, for you have heard that the geisha often hold themselves apart from the world that the rest of Rokugan inhabits.
"As much as I might wish it was my company, Ikoma-sama, I have no doubt that you have far more interesting companions to spend the evening with." You say, confident in a reasonably safe opening. Indeed, merely by meeting you here Ikoma Genji is displaying his wealth and political connections - an okaasan will not simply allow anybody in to their house, and arranging a private meeting in a place like this must have taken a great deal of time and money. Indeed, you have heard that a private session with a geisha can cost as much as ten koku.
"The women of the House of the Mountain Swallow are indeed excellent company." Ikoma Genji replies, smiling broadly. "Indeed, I think any meeting is left incomplete without their peerless skills. If you do not object?"
Your consent is merely a formality, both of you know this, but for the sake of propriety you incline your head in agreement. Genji claps his hands, and the screen door behind him slides open, revealing a slender woman in a beautiful autumn-colored kimono. She is the very picture of feminine grace and beauty, and without a word needing to be said glides across the room to seat herself between you and Ikoma Genji, far enough away from the table to make it clear she is not directly involved but still clearly able to hear and observe everything. A younger woman, her face covered in white makeup, follows her in and passes her an elegant biwa before departing again. Within a few moments, the room is full of soft and enchanting sound of music.
For a moment you consider adopting a more secretive air... but Genji invited the geisha in, so he clearly believes he can trust her in this matter, and you would not wish to doubt his judgement in front of him. Besides, the music truly is rather lovely.
"In light of such a masterful example," you incline your head to the geisha, who smiles demurely at the compliment, "I can only assume that you wish to speak with me on some topic - specifically one that requires us meeting directly, rather than something that can be entrusted to an appropriate intermediary."
Genji nods approvingly, evidently completely at ease, and you have to admit a certain professional respect for his skill. He's not hiding his emotions behind a mask or exhibiting rigid self control - he truly is completely at ease, and entirely willing to show that to anyone who cares to look. Your training always assumed that the other party would be trying to hide their true feelings to some degree, and the complete openness is making you feel distinctly unbalanced.
"At this point, most would conclude that you seek an ally in managing the work of court while our superiors enjoy their rivalry." You say, watching for reactions and seeing none. "Others might say that you seek an alternate route into the Scorpion delegation, for any number of reasons. The foolish might guess that you desire assistance with a task that is not readily performed by a Lion."
At this, Ikoma Genji shows genuine surprise, raising his eyebrows and sitting back slightly. "I would have thought such things reserved for the theater, Soshi-san. Are you telling me that people approach the Scorpion for such things so regularly that you actually expect it?"
"Our reputation works against us both there, I fear." You reply, not quite willing to admit that yes, people can and do ask the Scorpion for their unique brand of assistance on a reasonably common basis. "We have been portrayed as the knowing villains in the minds of samurai for so long that reality and perception have become somewhat blurred. Which in turn suggests to people that one only meets a Scorpion covertly if they have something dishonourable in mind. As I said - foolish."
"All potential options, Soshi-san, and it's always good to see people willing to think broadly about such things." Ikoma Genji says with the sort of air one might expect from a teacher watching an apt pupil. "Have you a favourite of the theories?"
"Ultimately, Ikoma-sama, I do not believe you have only one reason to summon me." You admit. "It would seem almost insulting to presume that a man in a position such as yours would operate on such a simple level."
"I confess, it is nice to be appreciated." The Karo says with a broad smile, pausing for a moment to enjoy the music. "Which is not to say that my own lord does not, by any means. Matsu-dono is a keen student of Leadership, and prefers to rely on the counsel of valued experts and specialists rather than dismissing the importance of any areas she herself is inexpert in."
"A wise lord is a blessing to her people." You respond, acknowldging both the surface information about the Daimyo and the thinly veiled warning against underestimating her. Genji did not come out and say that she knows about this meeting, but the implication is there, which could mean many different things.
"Just so." Ikoma Genji agrees. "Fortunately, Rokugan is currently blessed with many wise lords, and so can expect to flourish in the days to come. Among them, for example, would be Doji Kuwanan."
You blink in momentary surprise, knowing that this cannot be a truly random topic even if it feels like it. "I have heard many stories of the Crane Clan Champion." You say cautiously, unwilling to commit to any one version of them just yet.
"I am not surprised - the Champion was always memorable, even when fostered to the Akodo during his youth." Genji replies, and despite his casual air you understand that you are nearing the crux of the issue. "Indeed, many of his old classmates and sensei keep in touch with him. I myself am friends with his old Kenjutsu instructor."
With slow, unhurried movements, Genji produces a bottle of sake and two bowls, pouring the clear liquid into each. "After court opened, I spoke with my old friend and discussed matters with him, for a good sensei always has useful advice to offer. He was quite surprised, to say the least - apparently his correspondence had led him to expect a rather different attitude from the Crane delegation. And a different delegate, for that matter."
The Karo pushes the sake dish across the table to you. "I was wondering if you might be willing to share your own insights on this whole matter."
Respond
[ ] Write in
Everything here is tasteful and designed to be aesthetically pleasing, from the beautifully carved wooden table to the works of art decorating the walls. Distantly you can hear the sound of friendly conversation and laughter, but it almost seems to be part of a different world - indeed, such might be the intended effect, for you have heard that the geisha often hold themselves apart from the world that the rest of Rokugan inhabits.
"As much as I might wish it was my company, Ikoma-sama, I have no doubt that you have far more interesting companions to spend the evening with." You say, confident in a reasonably safe opening. Indeed, merely by meeting you here Ikoma Genji is displaying his wealth and political connections - an okaasan will not simply allow anybody in to their house, and arranging a private meeting in a place like this must have taken a great deal of time and money. Indeed, you have heard that a private session with a geisha can cost as much as ten koku.
"The women of the House of the Mountain Swallow are indeed excellent company." Ikoma Genji replies, smiling broadly. "Indeed, I think any meeting is left incomplete without their peerless skills. If you do not object?"
Your consent is merely a formality, both of you know this, but for the sake of propriety you incline your head in agreement. Genji claps his hands, and the screen door behind him slides open, revealing a slender woman in a beautiful autumn-colored kimono. She is the very picture of feminine grace and beauty, and without a word needing to be said glides across the room to seat herself between you and Ikoma Genji, far enough away from the table to make it clear she is not directly involved but still clearly able to hear and observe everything. A younger woman, her face covered in white makeup, follows her in and passes her an elegant biwa before departing again. Within a few moments, the room is full of soft and enchanting sound of music.
For a moment you consider adopting a more secretive air... but Genji invited the geisha in, so he clearly believes he can trust her in this matter, and you would not wish to doubt his judgement in front of him. Besides, the music truly is rather lovely.
"In light of such a masterful example," you incline your head to the geisha, who smiles demurely at the compliment, "I can only assume that you wish to speak with me on some topic - specifically one that requires us meeting directly, rather than something that can be entrusted to an appropriate intermediary."
Genji nods approvingly, evidently completely at ease, and you have to admit a certain professional respect for his skill. He's not hiding his emotions behind a mask or exhibiting rigid self control - he truly is completely at ease, and entirely willing to show that to anyone who cares to look. Your training always assumed that the other party would be trying to hide their true feelings to some degree, and the complete openness is making you feel distinctly unbalanced.
"At this point, most would conclude that you seek an ally in managing the work of court while our superiors enjoy their rivalry." You say, watching for reactions and seeing none. "Others might say that you seek an alternate route into the Scorpion delegation, for any number of reasons. The foolish might guess that you desire assistance with a task that is not readily performed by a Lion."
At this, Ikoma Genji shows genuine surprise, raising his eyebrows and sitting back slightly. "I would have thought such things reserved for the theater, Soshi-san. Are you telling me that people approach the Scorpion for such things so regularly that you actually expect it?"
"Our reputation works against us both there, I fear." You reply, not quite willing to admit that yes, people can and do ask the Scorpion for their unique brand of assistance on a reasonably common basis. "We have been portrayed as the knowing villains in the minds of samurai for so long that reality and perception have become somewhat blurred. Which in turn suggests to people that one only meets a Scorpion covertly if they have something dishonourable in mind. As I said - foolish."
"All potential options, Soshi-san, and it's always good to see people willing to think broadly about such things." Ikoma Genji says with the sort of air one might expect from a teacher watching an apt pupil. "Have you a favourite of the theories?"
"Ultimately, Ikoma-sama, I do not believe you have only one reason to summon me." You admit. "It would seem almost insulting to presume that a man in a position such as yours would operate on such a simple level."
"I confess, it is nice to be appreciated." The Karo says with a broad smile, pausing for a moment to enjoy the music. "Which is not to say that my own lord does not, by any means. Matsu-dono is a keen student of Leadership, and prefers to rely on the counsel of valued experts and specialists rather than dismissing the importance of any areas she herself is inexpert in."
"A wise lord is a blessing to her people." You respond, acknowldging both the surface information about the Daimyo and the thinly veiled warning against underestimating her. Genji did not come out and say that she knows about this meeting, but the implication is there, which could mean many different things.
"Just so." Ikoma Genji agrees. "Fortunately, Rokugan is currently blessed with many wise lords, and so can expect to flourish in the days to come. Among them, for example, would be Doji Kuwanan."
You blink in momentary surprise, knowing that this cannot be a truly random topic even if it feels like it. "I have heard many stories of the Crane Clan Champion." You say cautiously, unwilling to commit to any one version of them just yet.
"I am not surprised - the Champion was always memorable, even when fostered to the Akodo during his youth." Genji replies, and despite his casual air you understand that you are nearing the crux of the issue. "Indeed, many of his old classmates and sensei keep in touch with him. I myself am friends with his old Kenjutsu instructor."
With slow, unhurried movements, Genji produces a bottle of sake and two bowls, pouring the clear liquid into each. "After court opened, I spoke with my old friend and discussed matters with him, for a good sensei always has useful advice to offer. He was quite surprised, to say the least - apparently his correspondence had led him to expect a rather different attitude from the Crane delegation. And a different delegate, for that matter."
The Karo pushes the sake dish across the table to you. "I was wondering if you might be willing to share your own insights on this whole matter."
Respond
[ ] Write in
- Location
- Trapped in the Warp
So, does this mean that the Crane champion sent their delegation, told them 'go say X, and Y is in charge' and they are completely disobeying the leader of the Clan, as well as violating their orders, or is this more a situation of his old friend going 'huh, that's odd, I'd have thought this other guy should have been in charge'.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
I notice a thing.
Specifically, while gman was somewhat wrong in his assessment of my last write-in, I was *more* wrong. Also, screwing up two times in a row is one of those things you're supposed to take as a *sign*... even if others do manage to prevent you from actually damaging yourself with it.
I suspect I've been pushing myself too hard to come up with answers for this quest lately, and the quality of the answers I generate has suffered as a result. I'll be stepping back for a bit - tossing in a few thoughts from time to time, but no in-depth anything, and certainly not producing any write-ins. The thoughts I *do* provide should also take this as a caveat.
Might be a good time for a lore check on Doji Kuwanan.
Specifically, while gman was somewhat wrong in his assessment of my last write-in, I was *more* wrong. Also, screwing up two times in a row is one of those things you're supposed to take as a *sign*... even if others do manage to prevent you from actually damaging yourself with it.
I suspect I've been pushing myself too hard to come up with answers for this quest lately, and the quality of the answers I generate has suffered as a result. I'll be stepping back for a bit - tossing in a few thoughts from time to time, but no in-depth anything, and certainly not producing any write-ins. The thoughts I *do* provide should also take this as a caveat.
As far as I can see, it's that the Champion and his kenjutsu instructor were exchanging letters. The Champion told him more or less who would be showing up, and what they would have to say. Then someone else showed up, and said something different. That's at least a clear indication that *something* fishy is going on - though it's not entirely clear what.
Might be a good time for a lore check on Doji Kuwanan.
To sum up Doji Kunwan is hard but...uh he has a complicated relationship with the Lion clan, he was fostered with the Akodo, but had a strong and later murderous rivalry with Matsu Hirou the brother of Matsu Tsuko the former daimyo and champion of the Lion. (The reason it was murderous was because Kunwan blamed Hirou for going after his betrothed and badgering her into suicide) Hirou would more or less disappear before Kunwan could get proper vengeance (Hirou became a ninja for the Kolat Master Akodo Kage) After the assorted craziness of the Clan Wars and succeeding his brother, Kunwan dedicated himself to Bishamon and took to being a hard ass warrior working to rebuild the Crane. Canonically this would be complicated by the Crane Civil War but that hasn't happened yet. but all the same the Daidoji could indeed be forcing Kunwan to take a more hardline stance. Alternately Kunwan has hatched a cunning plan.