In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

We could always try to fight him off, try to escape and then this become Ronin Quest. Buuut, chances of that are pretty low, and it doesn't help our clan or avenge Mariko.

Ummm...if we fight him off, how exactly does that translate to "And now we must become ronin"? Wouldn't that make him the perfect person to pin this whole "Who killed Bayushi Kimiko?" on, the sneaky fake scribe person with stabbing and sneaking skills he's just revealed?
 
If he is loyal, he's going to respect "We're looking out for the Clan" more then any explaination we could ever give.
Another way to put this:

Given how much power we've just acquired, if Hideki is loyal and we didn't kill Kimiko he still needs to know we won't falter or retreat in the face of force.

Because whoever did kill Kimiko has a whole lot more force than he does.
 
Ummm...if we fight him off, how exactly does that translate to "And now we must become ronin"? Wouldn't that make him the perfect person to pin this whole "Who killed Bayushi Kimiko?" on, the sneaky fake scribe person with stabbing and sneaking skills he's just revealed?
Because the Testimonies of the murder still points to us and there is no way to prove that he's someone who can steal our face.
 
One possibility in fact that might come up if he's suitably impressed?

He gives us all his intel, and then he confesses to the murder.

Which completely torpedoes the plot and keeps the Scorpion in play here, with someone who knows to be wary. Because now a culprit has admitted to it and been suitably punished, which means the issue is closed, and the enemy has to start from scratch.

And in doing so, he clearly shows that there are people running around wearing other people's faces, which means that this tactic won't work again. And they now have a primary representative who can be trusted, and is aware of these shenanagans completely clear of charges and suspicion.
 
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Because the Testimonies of the murder still points to us and there is no way to prove that he's someone who can steal our face.

He faked being a humble scribe well enough to fool the whole Scorpion delegation (that is our story, and no one can contradict us) why wouldn't he be able to fake being Naoto enough to fool some guards from a distance? Guards who don't know Naoto personally?

That's the problem with being a clever master of disguise hiding leet spy skills, if it comes out that you are one all the master of disguise leet spy stuff going on is de facto your fault.
 
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[x] "I don't know what will convince you. You've doubtless already heard that I was out of the city at the time, with Asako Tani. I swear to you that this is true, and that anyone who looked like me during the attack was the result of disguise or maho. But the fact that you are standing here behind me with a knife means that you already know this, and don't think it's enough. So. If you really want something convincing? If I had committed murder, I would not have been so incredibly stupid as to then walk back into the city to get arrested, and then waited in one location long enough for you to find me."
 
One possibility in fact that might come up if he's suitably impressed?

He gives us all his intel, and then he confesses to the murder.

Which completely torpedoes the plot and keeps the Scorpion in play here, with someone who knows to be wary. Because now a culprit has admitted to it and been suitably punished, which means the issue is closed, and the enemy has to start from scratch.

And in doing so, he clearly shows that there are people running around wearing other people's faces, which means that this tactic won't work again. And they now have a primary representative who can be trusted, and is aware of these shenanagans completely clear of charges and suspicion.
Oof. That's a possibility, but I'd hate to lose somebody as knowledgeable and useful to the whole trading (and helping with book-keeping) thing as Pale Oak. If possible I'd prefer to throw somebody else under the bus. (... Somebody hopefully not Wren either.)

We'd be clearing Naoto's name, but would kinda be damaging some of our Clan's other long-term plots here. Like the plan we had to offer assistance to the local law enforcement. Or the economic stuff.

We'd be cleared legally, but down a valuable ally.

Also, closing the case like that might be an issue too -- because we wouldn't be able to say "There's a shapeshifting assassin running around!" because, well, said assassin would already be dead... So yeah; it puts an end to the matter, but both for good and for ill.

We wouldn't be able to get any (non-Scorpion) on-board with "find the real murderer" anymore.
 
Yeah

If he is loyal, he's going to respect "We're looking out for the Clan" more then any explaination we could ever give. If he's not loyal, he's going to kill us no matter what we do, and this prevents him from getting useful information out of us.

And as things stand, technically, we have no reason to believe at the moment he's actually working with our Clan, especially as there's shapeshifters on the prowl and we already have evidence that someone's been forging documents from Clan Champions. It proves that we're not blinded by honor or preconceptions--and that means we can be worked with.

So, by not giving up the information being demanded from him at knife point Naoto proves he isn't an honorable samurai.

Because as we all know, honorable samurai like the Akodo turn into blubbering crybabies and spill everything they know when confronted with physical danger. :jackiechan:
 
So, by not giving up the information being demanded from him at knife point Naoto proves he isn't an honorable samurai.

Because as we all know, honorable samurai like the Akodo turn into blubbering crybabies and spill everything they know when confronted with physical danger. :jackiechan:

Dude, I'm saying that "Telling the guy with a knife to your throat everything you know when you only have his word that he's not actually working against you" is a poor choice.

That our first response should be challenging him to prove he's actually with us, and not giving him an excuse.

I admit the possibility that his is a test to see if we're worthy of being the Scorpion's representative at this Court--but the core of my argument here is that "If he's even halfway competent, he already knows anything we could tell him, and that he hasn't killed us outright is a sign that he doesn't believe we did it. Note how he was asking if we're an enemy to the Scorpion, not if we were the one responsible for killing Kimiko".
 
Dude, I'm saying that "Telling the guy with a knife to your throat everything you know when you only have his word that he's not actually working against you"...


That would be the thing that literally no one is arguing or voting that we should do.

That is the thing you are furiously arguing against.

Okay. Congratulations on a glorious victory against zero opposition.

A winner is you!
 
:(

Maybe I should not contribute to this game, I feel like I'm missing half the discussion and responding to things that aren't being said.

Sorry or bugging everyone, I'll see myself out.
 
[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
--[X] Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.

People never seem to learn about putting the X in on votes so they actually show up in counts.
 
[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
--[X] Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.
 
:(

Maybe I should not contribute to this game, I feel like I'm missing half the discussion and responding to things that aren't being said.

Sorry or bugging everyone, I'll see myself out.

You're fine. Don't take it too seriously, this is the internet. People will attribute things to you that you didn't say, people will miss things that you did say... you came up with a pretty solid argument for challenging Hideki / Pale Oak back. Be proud.
 
:(

Maybe I should not contribute to this game, I feel like I'm missing half the discussion and responding to things that aren't being said.

Sorry or bugging everyone, I'll see myself out.
You've convinced me.

[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
--[X] Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.
 
So, I absolutely think that we should go with the "convince me" plan first. After that, though...

"Very well, Hideki-san. I have arguments to make. Will you allow me the time to make them?"

I started writing this out, but it started getting Looooong (as my stuff is wont to do) so I'll break it down into logical arguments instead, and perhaps we can boil it down later.

Basically, there are three basic possibilities from his perspective. One is that we're loyal, and he should probably let us live. One is that Soshi Naoto was loyal, and we're the bastard who killed him and took his place. One is that Soshi Naoto is disloyal, and needs to die for killing his lord.

Our answer to "killed him and took his place" is the relatively straightforward shared knowledge thing. By now we have a fair amount of shared history with Pale Oak that neither of us has shared with anyone else. As long as we can be sure he is who he says he is, we can just answer questions about that shared history until he's satisfied.

Our answer to the other is that this attack on the embassy... well, it took a lot of doing. It took out Bayushi Kimoko and Yogo Hanzo, while this guy was fighting next to them. We don't know how many were involved, but there had to be a decent number of them, and reasonably effective combatants. Soshi Naoto - Scorpion Bushi fresh out of his gempukku - doesn't have anythign like the assets needed to make that happen. If it was some shadowy, non-Scorpion overlord, then the position I've gained isn't anything like worth the cost in manpower and secrecy (for whoever it was) that they paid to make it happen. The *only* way that the attack makes sense is that somehow it was being done to try to shut down the Scorpion embassy because we were being too successful at somethign or otherwise thwarting plans, and from that perspective, the stuff most likely to have been thwarting their plans was the stuff that Soshi Naoto himself was pulling off. Yogo Hanzo was certainly useful, and a meaningful contributor to the team, but he wasn't doing anything particularly earth-shaking. Bayushi-sama's blood-soaked romance with Matsu Ketsui was adorable and impressive in its own right, but it wasn't exactly disrupting any carefully laid plans. "Pale Oak"... well, we don't actually know all of what he was doing, but if they'd just wanted to shut *him* down, surely there were easier ways than trying to go through Bayushi Kimoko to get to him.

Us presenting this in our overly-rational, overly-analytical way would probably *also* help convince him that we are who we say we are... and the way that we were pretty clearly being Honorable Scorpion before all this happened should make "and now we betray our Lord" seem *unlikely*.

Could probably shorten it up at least a bit with some sort of "which would you like me to address first?"
 
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So, I absolutely think that we should go with the "convince me" plan first. After that, though...

"Very well, Hideki-san. I have arguments to make. Will you allow me the time to make them?"

I started writing this out, but it started getting Looooong (as my stuff is wont to do) so I'll break it down into logical arguments instead, and perhaps we can boil it down later.

Basically, there are three basic possibilities from his perspective. One is that we're loyal, and he should probably let us live. One is that Soshi Naoto was loyal, and we're the bastard who killed him and took his place. One is that Soshi Naoto is disloyal, and needs to die for killing his lord.

Our answer to "killed him and took his place" is the relatively straightforward shared knowledge thing. By now we have a fair amount of shared history with Pale Oak that neither of us has shared with anyone else. As long as we can be sure he is who he says he is, we can just answer questions about that shared history until he's satisfied.

Our answer to the other is that this attack on the embassy... well, it took a lot of doing. It took out Bayushi Kimoko and Yogo Hanzo, while this guy was fighting next to them. We don't know how many were involved, but there had to be a decent number of them, and reasonably effective combatants. Soshi Naoto - Scorpion Bushi fresh out of his gempukku - doesn't have anythign like the assets needed to make that happen. If it was some shadowy, non-Scorpion overlord, then the position I've gained isn't anything like worth the cost in manpower and secrecy (for whoever it was) that they paid to make it happen. The *only* way that the attack makes sense is that somehow it was being done to try to shut down the Scorpion embassy because we were being too successful at somethign or otherwise thwarting plans, and from that perspective, the stuff most likely to have been thwarting their plans was the stuff that Soshi Naoto himself was pulling off. Yogo Hanzo was certainly useful, and a meaningful contributor to the team, but he wasn't doing anything particularly earth-shaking. Bayushi-sama's blood-soaked romance with Matsu Ketsui was adorable and impressive in its own right, but it wasn't exactly disrupting any carefully laid plans. "Pale Oak"... well, we don't actually know all of what he was doing, but if they'd just wanted to shut *him* down, surely there were easier ways than trying to go through Bayushi Kimoko to get to him.

Us presenting this in our overly-rational, overly-analytical way would probably *also* help convince him that we are who we say we are... and the way that we were pretty clearly being Honorable Scorpion before all this happened should make "and now we betray our Lord" seem *unlikely*.

Could probably shorten it up at least a bit with some sort of "which would you like me to address first?"

Pale Oak / Hideki has likely been on pins and needles for days. Logic doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would necessarily convince him, as convincing of an argument we could probably put together given the chance. The more emotional, more 'I share your fear' response of 'no, you prove you aren't my enemy' will probably do more for us than a hundred logical arguments.
 
Pale Oak / Hideki has likely been on pins and needles for days. Logic doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would necessarily convince him, as convincing of an argument we could probably put together given the chance. The more emotional, more 'I share your fear' response of 'no, you prove you aren't my enemy' will probably do more for us than a hundred logical arguments.
Note, again, this is for *after* we've had that exchange. I'm not trying to supplant the current vote. If nothing else, saying "feel free to interrogate me about important details of the secret things I've done with Pale Oak" is a *terrible* idea before we've established his bona fides regardless of whether he's friend or foe. It's terrible in different ways, but both ways are terrible.
 
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[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
-[X] Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.
 
[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
--[X] Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.
 
[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
--Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.
 
You know, whats the Pheonixes history with the Lying Darkness?
The attack occurs the day that we're out of the city might be a coincidence, that they're wearing our face sort of implies that they knew we wouldn't be present as a corpse.
 
90% of the people voting for spending Void on the action haven't actually voted for it. You need to remember to check what you're copy-pasting.
 
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