In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

[Alectai]

Honestly, I think that as a matter of principle, people should reconsider any plans or outcomes that involve them getting killed; they are likely probably bad outcomes a priori.

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Guess what? If that's the case? We're already fucked.

Because if he's actually an agent of the Lying Darkness, he has us dead to rights, and anything we do save "Die" is only going to make the situation worse.

This isn't a setting where "You must Live", there are indeed times when it is objectively better to die.

Considering that there's plenty of "Fates worth then death" lying around and all, and the Lying Darkness is capable of corrupting people too.

 

[Sirrocco]

Additionally, he never actually admitted to being Pale Oak--just that it was a 'Reasonable Guess'

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He said "reasonable guess" about our guess that he was the one fighting alongside Yogo Hanzo. We recognized that he was Pale Oak (or pretending to be such) by his voice.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Oooorrrr, if this is the shapeshifting assassin, then he just takes our place. He might even have a convenient "shapeshifter corpse" to use a proof to say "Look, it wasn't me!" Meaning that, congratulations, you've just allowed the Scorpion delegation leader to be replaced by a Changeling with nobody the wiser!

How can you possibly think "we die, therefore we win" is a good idea??

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If that's his intent there's not actually anything we can do in this position to stop that. Rather, dying before he gets the information he wants out of us becomes not quite a win but at least spiting his goals as best we can. (As an aside, our imperial buddy would still know the Crane orders were faked, just not by who, and if our poisoned clanmate DOES survive then its possible the two could get together and leave each other with a complete picture.)

 

[Mina]

Honestly, I think that as a matter of principle, people should reconsider any plans or outcomes that involve them getting killed; they are likely probably bad outcomes a priori.

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Bad for us, but not necessarily for our clan. To lose not one, but two guests to assassins and the second while under heavy guard? The Matsu will be shamed pretty badly. This gives leverage to whomever arrives in spring, or braves the winter snows to get a trade deal with them bent over a barrel.

If he's not shapeshifting assassin, our death now can benefit the Scorpion with the right touch. If he is, well we're kinda dead any way.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Because you don't get to be a Ninja by jumping to conclusions and then immediately acting upon them--doubly so if you're aware of the Lying Darkness being a thing (Which the Scorpion at least knows, even if they don't advertise the knowledge except in their most secret corners.)

Those sorts of people get weeded out long before they get trusted on any missions.

Frankly, the only reason this is a concern at all is because of the focus of Samurai on "The only thing that matters is testimony". Even a cursory investigation is basically running into very large questions--it's just that this happened in Lion Territory, which means that Testimony trumps absolutely everything.

In other words, it doesn't really matter what the Kitsuki turns up, because the Lions who "Definitely saw Naoto" aren't going to recant their statements, which turns it into a duel to resolve--and we've already established this is likely how the Conspirators will kill us.

Consider, as well, the context. Standing vigil over Kimiko as her Honor Guard. Our own calculus was that we can't afford to offend the Lion more than they already are if we intend to resolve this investigation--but as far as he knows, we're doing it because we honestly thought it needed to be done.

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See, you're acting like this is a sloppy frame up and the only reason we have to be concerned about it is that silly Rokugan legal system.

That is incorrect.

I mean, if my boss is murdered, multiple people saw me leaving my boss's office covered in blood, and my alibi is "No, I was alone in the woods with this girl I've been kinda flirting with on and off", I am in deep, deeeeep doodoo.

The Rokugan testimony system is our friend right now because the evidence is pointing squarely at Naoto.

As far as motive goes...we went from junior functionary to head Scorpion representative at Shiro Matsu, murders have been committed for a lot less than that.

 

[Garlak]

Guess what? If that's the case? We're already fucked.

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Yes, I know. That's obvious. My complaint was with you saying "Then we die -- which is a good thing!" To which my retort was "No, obviously it's a bad thing! -_-"

You made it sound as if there would be a possible silver lining or victory-in-death here, so I pointed out "No, we would just be fucked; the situation is exploitable for them."

EDIT: To go further... most of the rest of your stuff in your post? It is not a thing I am unaware of. Yes, there are fates worse than death. Yes, this isn't a "you must live" setting.

However, my point was not based on some logic of "Well clearly we must make sure our character survives! You can't let your character get killed." I'm aware that you can and do die in Rokugan, sometimes/often in a socially-outmaneuvered way or via seppuku or etc. It's not quite like other games where you're always trying to survive.


No, my point was just to say that your point about a "tactical victory (in death)" was wrong. I then came up with several easy examples of how that could be the case.

Make your death mean something. If your death would just leave your side in a worse-off situation? Then dying is just leaving an opening for the enemy.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Bad for us, but not necessarily for our clan. To lose not one, but two guests to assassins and the second while under heavy guard? The Matsu will be shamed pretty badly.

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Or the assassin just dumps Naoto's body in a cesspit after cutting his throat, "Ah-ah! The slimy Soshi ran away!" and the Scorpion have egg all over their face for raising up such a scummy little traitor. So much for favorable trade deals.

A suicide gambit that relies on mysterious assassin, motives uncertain deciding he'd rather screw over the Matsu instead of the Scorpion is a pretty bad gambit.

 

[reignonyrparade]

There is no exploitation out of the situation that they wouldn't be able to achieve regardless, and by nature thwarting whatever hypothetical shapeshifter pale oak is attempting right now would leave them slightly worse off, because otherwise they wouldn't be having him attempt it in the first place!

Edit: Also I'm pretty sure letting the scorpion delegation leader get assassinated and be presumed assassin get away reflects ALMOST as badly on the lion as letting the scorpion delegation leader as well as her replacement get away.

 

[Garlak]

Or the assassin just dumps Naoto's body in a cesspit after cutting his throat, "Ah-ah! The slimy Soshi ran away!" and the Scorpion have egg all over their face for harboring a scummy little traitor.

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Yep. And then murders and replaces Yogo, the only other Scorpion. Or, uh, disposes of our corpse and replaces us and does what he can even while his cover (Naoto) is under suspicion of murder. Or even just murders and dumps our body, according to the KISS principle.

There is no exploitation out of the situation that they wouldn't be able to achieve regardless, and by nature thwarting whatever hypothetical shapeshifter pale oak is attempting right now would leave them slightly worse off, because otherwise they wouldn't be having him attempt it in the first place!

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Yeah but getting killed isn't the way to do it.

If Pale Oak is on our side, we want to survive for, well, obvious reasons.

If he isn't on our side... uh... well we're probably screwed... but ideally we would also try to survive in that situation, because we'd have important information. Off the top of my head, the only way in which surviving would be worse than dying, would be if we survived only because we were subverted or something.

 

[Night]

"We get killed" is not in any way a win condition for us.

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This is L5R and Rokugan, and there are indeed conditions where dying is not only the accepted but the expected correct action for a samurai. "We get killed" can absolutely be a win condition if we are playing the character properly.

 

[Deadly Snark]

[X] "Someone has stolen my face, Hideki-san. Convince me that you are who you claim to be first, and we can talk"
--Spend Void if this is something we can Spend Void on.

 

[Sirrocco]

Yeah, basically thins. If Evil Shapeshifter Pale Oak wasn't trying to get something out of us, he'd just kill us. Whatever he might gain from this, we'd prefer to deny him.

Still... there is a thought. It's possible that he's not a Shosuro Infiltrator, but rather a Shosuro Actor. That would fit with being Pale Oak. Given that, there's a further possibility that *he* was the one who walked away from the murder scene while wearing our face.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Because you don't get to be a Ninja by jumping to conclusions and then immediately acting upon them--doubly so if you're aware of the Lying Darkness being a thing (Which the Scorpion at least knows, even if they don't advertise the knowledge except in their most secret corners.)

Those sorts of people get weeded out long before they get trusted on any missions.

Frankly, the only reason this is a concern at all is because of the focus of Samurai on "The only thing that matters is testimony". Even a cursory investigation is basically running into very large questions--it's just that this happened in Lion Territory, which means that Testimony trumps absolutely everything.

In other words, it doesn't really matter what the Kitsuki turns up, because the Lions who "Definitely saw Naoto" aren't going to recant their statements, which turns it into a duel to resolve--and we've already established this is likely how the Conspirators will kill us.

Consider, as well, the context. Standing vigil over Kimiko as her Honor Guard. Our own calculus was that we can't afford to offend the Lion more than they already are if we intend to resolve this investigation--but as far as he knows, we're doing it because we honestly thought it needed to be done.

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Oh, and another argument against "Shoshuro-san totally knows Naoto didn't do it, JUNSHIN TEST JUNSHIN TEST THIS IS TOTES A JUNSHIN TEST" if he knew Lying Darkness shapeshifters were a thing and loose in Shiro Matsu, he wouldn't be holding a knife to Naoto's throat and asking questions without first testing him with Crystal.

Because for all he knows the guy guarding Kimiko's body is a shapeshifter too (or the same one) poised to use its new position as Head Scorpion to cause all kinds of Nothing agenda advancing chaos at this Winter Court.

 

[Garlak]

This is L5R and Rokugan, and there are indeed conditions where dying is not only the accepted but the expected correct action for a samurai. "We get killed" can absolutely be a win condition if we are playing the character properly.

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I am aware of that.

I am saying that in context, this is probably not such a situation, and have given some evidence and hypotheticals to back my assertion up.

There are cases where death is better than failure/betrayal/dishonor/taint/etc. There are also cases where death would be a failure of your duty, and thus you really need to make sure you don't die because things are depending on you.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Off the top of my head, the only way in which surviving would be worse than dying, would be if we survived only because we were subverted or something.

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The very fact that hypothetical shapeshifter pale oak hasn't killed us yet suggests that there's something he wants out of us. If we can't figure out what specifically he wants out of us killing ourselves before he can get what he wants is the clearest most evident way to spite the enemy goals.

 

[Mina]

A suicide gambit that relies on mysterious assassin, motives uncertain deciding he'd rather screw over the Matsu instead of the Scorpion is a pretty bad gambit

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Except the "we let him kill us" route is if it's clear he won't play ball and requires us to give up more than we're willing to. Either he's actually Pale Oak and the Scorpion win from our death, or he's the person who defeated a woman we wouldn't have had a chance in Jigoku of beating.

He has us dead to rights, and denying him information is all we really have at this point. Even of he's legit, we can't know for sure.

At least that's how I'm understanding the sequence of events?

 

[Candesce]

Either he's actually Pale Oak and the Scorpion win from our death, or he's the person who defeated a woman we wouldn't have had a chance in Jigoku of beating.

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Not to mention - if he is Scorpion aligned, "being willing to do anything to avoid dying" is exactly the kind of thing he should kill us over, under the circumstances.

 

[Garlak]

If we can't figure out what specifically he wants out of us

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Yep. If we determine that this is Evil Shapeshifter, and that he definitely wants something out of us, and we don't see a way to bullshit our way out of this... lying and information-denial becomes pretty much our option.

Well that and maybe taking a (suicidal) swing at him and praying for a miracle mutual-kill.

Either he's actually Pale Oak and the Scorpion win from our death

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Er hang on if he's Pale Oak, then the Scorpion don't win from our death -- because we're innocent and loyal to our clan?

He has us dead to rights, and denying him information is all we really have at this point. Even of he's legit, we can't know for sure.

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I think "trying to convince him (without giving away way too much)" is our goal; we're in a better position if we survive this.

Plus, information-denial comes automatically from us dying; that's a default. So we ought to focus on our survival - because if we fail, we die and thus deny information by default.


... Er, to clear it up: Obviously, we want to try and survive this somehow.

Not to mention - if he is Scorpion aligned, "being willing to do anything to avoid dying" is exactly the kind of thing he should kill us over, under the circumstances.

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No, actually, because we have crucially important information -- IIRC we're the only ones who know the Crane orders are forged, and we're the only ones who really suspects there's a shapeshifter or something here.

If Pale Oak is on the level, we definitely want to survive. You can't do your duty if you're dead. Especially if your duty involves limited information.

 

[Wade Garrett]

The very fact that hypothetical shapeshifter pale oak hasn't killed us yet suggests that there's something he wants out of us. If we can't figure out what specifically he wants out of us killing ourselves before he can get what he wants is the clearest most evident way to spite the enemy goals.

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Of course, the question then becomes "How do kill self?" in this particular situation. Naoto throwing himself at the knife might work, but considering this guys skill level...

...or he's the person who defeated a woman we wouldn't have had a chance in Jigoku of beating.

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Not necessarily. All the empty clothing around where Kimiko fell suggests she got buried under a wave of bodies, not taken down by one supremely capable badass...although given how easily this guy got the drop on Naoto and the whole "knife to your neck" thing I can't say I like our odds trying to go head to head with him/it.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Of course, the question then becomes "How do kill self?" in this particular situation. Naoto throwing himself at the knife might work, but considering this guys skill level...

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Even if throwing ourselves at the knife at our neck doesn't work I personally would consider "no longer has a knife at our neck" a net gain. Might even give us a chance to call guards.

 

[Garlak]

Still... there is a thought. It's possible that he's not a Shosuro Infiltrator, but rather a Shosuro Actor. That would fit with being Pale Oak. Given that, there's a further possibility that *he* was the one who walked away from the murder scene while wearing our face.

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Anyway, to bring the focus back on this: do you think rather than going for "There's a shapeshifter wearing my face!", we should just directly ask him if he had escaped the scene via disguise?

Or does Naoto not have that knowledge in-character, about Shosuro Actors, or is not able to suspect such a possibility?

 

[Deadly Snark]

Er hang on if he's Pale Oak, then the Scorpion don't win from our death -- because we're innocent and loyal to our clan?

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If he's Pale Oak-san and he kills us then the Scorpion absolutely wins. Because it brings incredibly shame and a huge amount of lost face towards the Lion, letting two dignitaries killed on their watch, meaning whoever gets our job after we die gains an incredible negotiating advantage that they can hammer the Lion with. Having us die proves that there is an assassin still on the prowl, meaning the Lion are not wasting time investigating us and are instead looking for the Assassin. Finally, the Scorpion are currently the only ones who knows about he influence of the Darkness in this manner, this means that in the aftermath, they can do some shifty Scorpion things.

Sacrificing innocent and loyal clan members have been used as a wining move by the Scorpion for a long time. Recall how it was mentionned that if someone fucked us over a deal, we can and should commit Seppukku just to spite them which tells our clan members that they need to fuck the person's shit up. Something that plenty before us have done before.

Or the story of Bayushi Ujiro, a Scorpion Clan Champion who was holding his own Winter Court. He entered a debate about the greatest virtues necessary for a Samurai with the ambassadors of Lion, Crab and Unicorn. He won the argument by convincing everyone that Loyalty is the greatest virtue. The Crab, being salty challenged her by saying that a Scorpion knows nothing about Loyalty.

Bayushi Ujiro smiled and proposed a test to find out which Clan's samurai were the most loyal. They were each to ask their bodyguard to come in the room and ask them to do one thing and it will be the same order for everyone. Anyone who hesitates or asks questions would fail the test. Ujiro went first.

Bayushi Ujiro: Shunsen.
Shunsen: My lord?
Bayushi Ujiro: Kill me.
Shunsen: Yes, my Lord.
Shunsen instantly draws his katana, cuts Ujiro down, drops his katana, draws his wakizashi and commits seppuku.

You can hear the mic drop in the room.

so yes, if we are innocent and dies, the Scorpion can absolutely win from our demise. They have experience with such things.

 

[Garlak]

If he's Pale Oak-san and he kills us then the Scorpion absolutely wins. Because it brings incredibly shame and a huge amount of lost face towards the Lion, letting two dignitaries killed on their watch

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Oh, right -- I'd hyperfocused on "If he's evil and he kills us he can use our death to further harm our position" forgetting that if he is loyal he could do that in the opposite direction.

Yeah, if he's loyal he can still make use of our corpse. That's ... not much. Better than nothing. But not great.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Oh, right -- I'd hyperfocused on "If he's evil and he kills us he can use our death to further harm our position" forgetting that if he is loyal he could do that in the opposite direction.

Yeah, if he's loyal he can still make use of our corpse. That's ... not much. Better than nothing. But not great.

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We could always try to fight him off, try to escape and then this become Ronin Quest. Buuut, chances of that are pretty low, and it doesn't help our clan or avenge Mariko.

 

[Alectai]

Oh, right -- I'd hyperfocused on "If he's evil and he kills us he can use our death to further harm our position" forgetting that if he is loyal he could do that in the opposite direction.

Yeah, if he's loyal he can still make use of our corpse. That's ... not much. Better than nothing. But not great.

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Yeah

If he is loyal, he's going to respect "We're looking out for the Clan" more then any explaination we could ever give. If he's not loyal, he's going to kill us no matter what we do, and this prevents him from getting useful information out of us.

And as things stand, technically, we have no reason to believe at the moment he's actually working with our Clan, especially as there's shapeshifters on the prowl and we already have evidence that someone's been forging documents from Clan Champions. It proves that we're not blinded by honor or preconceptions--and that means we can be worked with.