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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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My interpretation is that Daidoji Chen is angry, and looking to be pointed at someone.

I am okay with attempting to point him in the right direction. The Daidoji have a reputation as honorable samurai (which doesn't necessarily mean that Chen in particular is definitely one such, but does make it more likely), so I feel like it's unlikely that Chen himself is trying to see if we need to be silenced.

With that said, it's still quite possible, so we shouldn't let him know that we have any confirmed proof that the letter was forged, or that we are working with Ikoma-sama on this matter. I'd also argue against pointing out that we know his Clan Champion trained with the Lion - if he is working on behalf of a conspiracy, or going to draw their attention by acting, I would prefer not to draw that conspiracy's attention to Ikoma Genji. Genji seems like our best chance to get this resolved (as long as he's not a tool of the Lying Darkness trying to provoke a war between Lion and Crane, anyways.)

What we should share is what Mariko shared with us - the details of her suspicions (the relevant threadmark is 4.04) and point out that the letter going missing could mean that someone has an interest in seeing that the letter not be examined too closely. Granted, this is skirting perilously close to being a lie in that we know we stole it, but it's a spiritual truth in that we are suggesting a false reason for him to believe a truth - that her instructions were forged. Arguably, it's the sort of lie that wouldn't cause honor loss.

Then... we have the option of making him a target. If we suggest that he send to Crane lands for duplicate instructions, and offer to help him check the instructions for evidence of forgery, then either:
  1. He will get the true instructions this time, and Mariko's suspicions will be confirmed.
  2. He will get another set of false instructions, and we can use what we already know to prove the new instructions are also fake. Also, we will learn something - that the Crane's enemies are watching & intercepting mail.
  3. He will get no instructions, and will believe that his messages are being intercepted, but without proof. Still suspicious, still works for our purposes.
Also, any of the 3 options have a chance of making him a target, and if someone moves to strike at him, we learn something about the culprits.

It places us at a certain degree of risk as Chen's contact, but... to be honest, we're the least valuable member of our delegation, and this is important for the well-being of the Scorpion and the Empire. It's worth the risk.
 
Oh come now, that the Crane Champion trained with the Lion is common knowledge. It isn't any more a tip off than saying that Mirumoto Hitomi trained with the Dragon.
 
gman391 said:
Oh come now, that the Crane Champion trained with the Lion is common knowledge. It isn't any more a tip off than saying that Mirumoto Hitomi trained with the Dragon.
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Yeah, it's common knowledge. I'm sure Chen knows it too. If he asks us directly "You don't believe the Champion would have ordered this?" we can totally use "he trained with the Lion" as a reason for why not.

But. This is Rokugan. Obscure hints are a way of life for courtiers. If the core of our response is a Lion-centric argument for why one should believe that the letter was false, Chen might well conclude that we mean him to know that we have an ally in the Lion assisting us with this, and from there it's a pretty short hop to Ikoma Genji.

Giving Daidoji Chen only the information & arguments we could have developed by speaking with Mariko is the best way to protect the other members of our conspiracy to discover the truth.
 
I'm going to dissent and state that given the recent events, a blunt account would benefit us in this instance more than being oblique about everything. He might be useful to use later in the event we need a catspaw when we finally know who to kill, and it would be hilarious if that agent was a Crane. Poetic justice.
 
So, trying to put my thoughts to a plan... not entirely happy with it yet, and welcome any suggestions for changes/alterations.

[X] "Daidoji-san... you may not know this, but I volunteered to represent Doji-san in the duel against Matsu Heijiko. So, no, Daidoji-san, I was not her enemy. As to Doji-san's concerns, I do not know what she shared with you, but she did share some of those concerns with me. She said that she received her first set of orders in person, a set of orders... at odds with the ones she later received by letter, and that she found the change bizarre. I believe it possible that she had concerns about the letter's authenticity. Of course, it would be very difficult to verify any such thing without the letter in question."

"If I am to be honest with you Daidoji-san, while the Scorpion have a certain perspective on such matters of intrigue, what I lack is the knowledge of who would perform such an action, and why. There are simply too many who could believe that they stand to benefit from such an action."
 
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[x] "It is said that Go is a game of strategy and tactics. That it shares many principles with battle, on the field or in Court." Pick up a stone and look at it. "A misstep can cascade, causing the loss of far more then the piece that was put forth at first." Allow a bit of sadness to seep into your voice as you look at Chen and gauge his reaction carefully:"Such misteps can be espetially dangerous if anothers hand is allowed to direct even a single stone, no matter its beauty. What hope does that one then have or any bound by the rules of the game?" After speaking take the stone with your other hand and place it so it sabotages our current position.
-[x] Spend a Void point trying to read from him if he was aware of that someone was manipulating Marikos orders from his reactions to the mendtion of "anothers hand".
-[x] If we judge by his reaction that he was unaware that someone was manipulating Mariko offer him this:"What could be done is hand the issue to one who is not so bound by the rules of the game, even if it is too late for the one wronged. Would you be willing to help one such redress the issue?"
-[x] If we judge by his reaction he was aware that someone was manipulating Mariko then seek to guilt trip him to spill whatever he knows. Preferably by asking about her final day and mentioning how she looked when we saw her that morning.
--[x]"Of course, finding any such individual would get much harder if they were aware that someone was looking."

Not perfectly satisfied with it. He has allready given us as fact that he belives we are not Marikos enemy, so not much point belaboring that fact. In fact trying to convince him further is like saying we do not belive his word, and that would be an insult.
Not sure if I am missing some social fu options. If anyone has suggestion I'm open to them.
@Maugan Ra:
Also mister Daidoji, how honorable are you anyway? Because if he has something like an honor of 0-2 that is an indcation of a problem.

@storybookknight: That one feels like we are saying: Well you know she doubted the letter was authentic, it really is a shame it is nowhere to be found. Well, what can you do?

EDIT: New vote will be up later today. Because brain fart.
 
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You know... I think I'll be somewhat kind and throw in a reminder here.

Bayushi Kimoko said:
Eventually, she sits back and nods thoughtfully. "This is, needless to say, highlysignificant." She says drumming her fingers on the side of the small table in front of her. "Very well. I will pass this up the chain of command, with my full authority attached to it. Our lord's need to know, and they will have the perspective and authority to make sure that this is properly acted upon."

She fixes you with her one remaining eye, and the intensity in her glare is enough to make you glad that you are already seated. "In the meantime, Soshi-san, Yogo-san, we hold this secret close. Tell no-one of your suspicions, until our lords have made their own decision. This is a direct order, you understand?"
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Bear that in mind when considering what you tell Chen, and know that you'll either have to keep it secret from your lord or justify it to her later.
 
Maugan Ra said:
You know... I think I'll be somewhat kind and throw in a reminder here.

Bear that in mind when considering what you tell Chen, and know that you'll either have to keep it secret from your lord or justify it to her later.
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Well, that is a total brain fart. I thought that order was only for our suspicions of the Taint, but upon rereading yes, it probably means not talking about the forged letter as well. Bit busy right now, but I'll see about whiping up a sensible vote based on telling half-truths with Sincerety. Consider my prevoius vote retracted.
 
[thread=ThreadId]Title[/thread]
So... all the votes are going against our orders.

Do anyone have any idea of how to talk with him?
 
[x] Refuse to answer
- [x] "I was not her enemy, nor am I yours." You sigh regretfully. "It is not my place to say more."

Voting for this provisonally just so that 'tell him everything' doesn't accidentally win.
 
Awww, biscuits. Thank you, @Maugan Ra , that is definitely something we would have remembered in-character. In hindsight, playing Go with him was a terrible idea.

Well, he believes we may know something. We can probably get away with hinting that this may be true (as long as we don't share what we know) without running afoul of our orders. After all, it's not giving him anything we didn't know.

Tentative plan:

[X] Evade the question.

[X] "Daidoji-san... as you doubtless know, I volunteered to represent Doji-san in the duel against Matsu Heijiko. If not for Kakita-san's timely intervention, it would have been me who fell to her blade in Doji-san's defense. So, no, Daidoji-san, I was not her enemy, nor am I yours."

"As to who her enemy could be? I do not know." This is true enough. The culprit is likely someone who is or has access to maho, and someone who would benefit from the Crane's misfortune - but that is very nearly 'everyone, everywhere.'

You fix Daidoji-san with a steely look, and show some of the anger in your heart. "But I would dearly like to. To be honest Daidoji-san, I had hoped to ask you if there was anything that you knew about this matter." Also technically true, but giving the impression that we know much less than we do.

-[X] If he gives us any information, offer our analyses of that information, possibly trying to lead him in the correct direction if we think we can do it safely.

-[X] If he does not or does a 'I asked first,' simply apologize and say "there is little that I can tell you at this time, Daidoji-san. If that changes, however, I will most assuredly do so."

-[X] Void dem sincerity rolls.
 
That could work, but I almost want to ask Sirroco and other smart people to make sure that that works and we're not missing anything. If it can help gain an ally/patsy, I might even throw in a free Raise of mine.
 
[x] Deflect with Sincerety and Half-truths: Allow a hint of genuine regret and anger to enter your voice "I wish I could Daidoji-san. I wish I knew who was responsible for this so I could remonstrate them. Doji-sama did share some of her concerns with me before the fatal insult. Unfortunately, Kakita-san won the honor of being her champion from me and then lost that duel before I could find any proof. Would you know who these enemies she spoke off were?
-[x] "As for the Champions orders, I am afraid I have not seen them. They've gone missing?"
-[x] Spend a Void point getting accross the point that we do want to help but that we do not know who did it. Helping us find out would be helpful.

Truth: We do not know who did this.
Truth: Before Mariko gave us that letter, we had not made meaningful progress in proving what was going on, merely gaining her trust. We had suspicion, but no proof.
Truth: We have not seen his Clan Champions orders. We have seen the forgery someone made to look like them.

Main Risk: If Mariko told Chen she gave us the letter, this turns into a shit storm. I think I might come up with something better, but for now, this should do.
 
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primemountain said:
[x] Deflect with Sincerety and Half-truths: Allow a hint of genuine regret and anger to enter your voice "I wish I could Daidoji-san. I wish I knew who was responsible for this so I could remonstrate them. Doji-sama did share some of her concerns with me before the fatal insult. Unfortunately, Kakita-san won the honor of being her champion from me and then lost that duel before I could find any proof. Would you know who these enemies she spoke off were?
-[x] "As for the Champions orders, I am afraid I have not seen them. They've gone missing?"
-[x] Spend a Void point getting accross the point that we do want to help but that we do not know who did it. Helping us find out would be helpful.

Truth: We do not know who did this.
Truth: Before Mariko gave us that letter, we had not made meaningful progress in proving what was going on, merely gaining her trust. We had suspicion, but no proof.
Truth: We have not seen his Clan Champions orders. We have seen the forgery someone made to look like them.

Main Risk: If Mariko told Chen she gave us the letter, this turns into a shit storm. I think I might come up with something better, but for now, this should do.
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I'm a little concerned that telling Daidoji that Doji shared something with us would lead him to ask precisely what that was. Telling him would go against our orders. We literally can't even let Daidoji-san know that we know or believe that the letter may have been forged.

Also, we know darn well that by the Champion's orders he means the fake ones. Telling him that we haven't seen them is much closer to a lie than I'm comfortable with. I mean, if we have to lie, we will, but without ranks in Deceit I am concerned about our ability to do so effectively.
 
storybookknight said:
I'm a little concerned that telling Daidoji that Doji shared something with us would lead him to ask precisely what that was. Telling him would go against our orders. We literally can't even let Daidoji-san know that we know or believe that the letter may have been forged.

Also, we know darn well that by the Champion's orders he means the fake ones. Telling him that we haven't seen them is much closer to a lie than I'm comfortable with. I mean, if we have to lie, we will, but without ranks in Deceit I am concerned about our ability to do so effectively.
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I make no comment on most of the discussions, but I will point out that you do have ranks in the deceit skill. Or more specifically, you have ranks in Sincerity, of which deceit is an emphasis.

Yes, convincing people that you're telling the truth and lying to their face uses the same skill in L5R. Welcome to Rokugan!
 
Maugan Ra said:
I make no comment on most of the discussions, but I will point out that you do have ranks in the deceit skill. Or more specifically, you have ranks in Sincerity, of which deceit is an emphasis.

Yes, convincing people that you're telling the truth and lying to their face uses the same skill in L5R. Welcome to Rokugan!
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Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking Deceit was its own Low skill.

In any case, we want to avoid lying to Daidoji if at all possible. We may want to work with him later, and it is entirely possible that he will be very offended if he found out that we lied at any point. Showing him that we are a liar is also likely to damage our credibility with him - how can he trust that the faked orders that we are showing him are the same as the orders that we got from Doji Mariko?

Offending him a little bit now in order to avoid offending him a great deal later is probably our safest option. So I would prefer to err on the side of 'refusing to tell him things' over lying, since we have been commanded by our lawful superior not to tell the truth.
 
Chen understands obedience and propriety. My answer is one he can accept gracefully and, if not without resentment, without a grudge. It does somewhat preclude us asking him questions but that would be implicitly confirming that we're investigating which I see as violating our current orders.

It shouldn't get in the way of other business with the Crane or later cooperation on this matter should our orders change.
 
noliar said:
Chen understands obedience and propriety. My answer is one he can accept gracefully and, if not without resentment, without a grudge. It does somewhat preclude us asking him questions but that would be implicitly confirming that we're investigating which I see as violating our current orders.

It shouldn't get in the way of other business with the Crane or later cooperation on this matter should our orders change.
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My worry is that this comes perilously close to just saying, "I know something but I'm not allowed to talk about it." While true, Daidoji's going to wonder:

Why isn't he allowed to talk about it?
Did his superiors forbid him from doing so?
Are his superiors involved?
If not, why can't he tell me?
Does he suspect me?

I think the secrets that are important to protect in this conversation are, in roughly ascending order:

That we know anything of consequence.
That we believe Doji's orders to be a forgery.
That we are working with our superiors to investigate this.
That we have Doji's orders and proof that they are forged.
That we believe some form of maho was involved.
That we are working with Ikoma Genji to investigate this.

Refusing & citing orders from a superior as our reason strongly implies that we do know something, and that so do our superiors. I think it's better in this case to avoid looking like we know anything while lying as little as possible - in the long run, our secrets are more important than his feelings.
 
[X] Evade the question.

[X] "Daidoji-san... as you doubtless know, I volunteered to represent Doji-san in the duel against Matsu Heijiko. If not for Kakita-san's timely intervention, it would have been me who fell to her blade in Doji-san's defense. So, no, Daidoji-san, I was not her enemy, nor am I yours."

"As to who her enemy could be? I do not know." This is true enough. The culprit is likely someone who is or has access to maho, and someone who would benefit from the Crane's misfortune - but that is very nearly 'everyone, everywhere.'

You fix Daidoji-san with a steely look, and show some of the anger in your heart. "But I would dearly like to. To be honest Daidoji-san, I had hoped to ask you if there was anything that you knew about this matter." Also technically true, but giving the impression that we know much less than we do.

-[X] If he gives us any information, offer our analyses of that information, possibly trying to lead him in the correct direction if we think we can do it safely.

-[X] If he does not or does a 'I asked first,' simply apologize and say "there is little that I can tell you at this time, Daidoji-san. If that changes, however, I will most assuredly do so."

-[X] Void dem sincerity rolls.
-[X] I, @The Laurent , have decided to waste a Free Raise on this, just because we can't afford yet another possible ally alienated by our sheer incompetence.

If someone argues that a Free Raise is overkill, I'll remove this, since I want to use these efficiently. Or if a Void point is enough for success.
 
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