In the Shadow of the Old Pueblo-Tucson ISOTed to the Bronze Age
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
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- Original Antiquity Supernatural
This is of course uterlly theoretical and based on OOC observation, but I believe that had he marched with Maddox on Salatiwara it would have given him time to bloody his troops while also crush an unprepared army during a siege. This success would be his, and improve his standing with everyone and earn him the trust he so sorely needed.
At the very least, marching from the west along the riverbeds from Salatiwara (it's proposed location) along a longer route, would allow for a much easier conquest or submission of locals later on. And make for a much easier trip than hill hoping.
So by the time he reached Hattusa, the royal army would have been already assembled, and promptly defeated in battle. The combined success of destroying both armies and taking a city would (and later the capital itself) would have painted him in a completely different light as a leader to his own people, and the downtime Hittites.
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
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- He/Him
Sure but the uptimers would have joined the ranks of the nobility AND they would have formed the actual government.
And the new king would be very young ideally. So you can instill uptimer values in him and marry him to the child of an uptimer family.
I admit that this is a hard sell but hard sells are the job of an empire builder. I am also convinced that most gang members, which seem to be one of the crucial population groups in the new state, would be pragmatic enough to acceot being the local equivalent of a baron or duke.
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Yeah admittedly the timing is not really great for a large scale conqueror right now. Such an effort would need a professional army, which don't really exist. Large scale logistics, not exactly an easy prospect right now. And the support of a large-ish group of uptimers, which is borderline like herding cats at this point. But that won't be the case forever.
That largely seems reasonable. I don't think Sanford would have been able to fully conquer the Hittites if he took that path but he definitely would have been more successful.
I don't disagree with you. There were some very short sighted actions taken by both Sanford and those involved in the Coup. More so Sanford when it comes to this as he didn't quite get that proclaiming to be the inheritor of the Hittite Empire while having no real connection to the nobles or royal family wouldn't really fly with most of the downtimers.
The Hattusa Republic (Part 1)
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"Sanford dreamed of an empire, only to find himself shackled to it's throne."
-Consul Sophia Maddox, New Roman Consulate
"The Lions still stand at the gate. The Empire may have fallen but Hattusa remains. The Americans have taken the heart of the empire into their own chest. Transforming it and themselves. The empire maybe dead but it may rise again."
- Zullanni, Hittie Merchant
The Unwanted Government
The Soft Coup had imposed a number of demands and restrictions upon President Thomas Sanford. And while the chaos that surrounded the first days after the coup did allow him to gain back some measure of power, he was still shackled with a number of obligations. These obligations forced him to impose a number of laws. The biggest of these would be the Settlement act. The Settlement act extensively decentralized the new Republic, giving control of every city and village outside of area immediately surrounding Hattusa itself to one of Sanford's Lieutenants or one of their allies. The Settlement act effectively turned Hattusa into a kind of neo-feudal state as these newly made governors and mayors were only obligated to provide taxes (In the form of labor and grain) to Hattusa and provide troops in times of war. Leaving Hattusa itself with little say over the day to day running of these cities and provinces. Each newly made governor and mayor ran their new fiefdom differently. Some became little more than bandits, using uptime enforcers to enslave the native Hittites and work them in farms and mines. Others focused on religion, preaching to uptimers their own particular creed. While a few would try to run their fiefs in an effective manner, most Governors quickly became corrupt. Using their lands to live a comfortable life while leaving the day to day administration to whoever was willing. Corruption became widespread, with Hattusa received far less in taxes than it was promised.
To further complicate manners the Soft Coup had imposed a five man council on Sanford. These men were elected by the various governors and mayors. Any laws, any decrees, any actions taken by Sanford had to be approved by the council, either a simple majority or a unanimous vote depending on the situation. Naturally many of the governors took to electing men who's main purpose was to slow down and obstruct anything they felt was a threat to their power. Council members who seemed to side with Sanford too often would find themselves subject to recall elections, and were replaced with men and women more aligned with the governors. This left The Hattusa Republic rather stagnate in it's early years. Maddox leaving Sanford unable to expand militarily and his own governors leaving him shackled politically.
This would change somewhat with the Zalpa Incident and the coming of the New Pueblo
The Zalpa Incident
The city of Zalpa was on the north-western edge of the Hattusa Republic and acted as Hattusa's main port on the Black Sea. Zalpa had fallen under the Governorship of one Karl Jefferson, a twenty nine year old man who had been in prison on drug charges when Sanford busted him out. Despite involvement in the Coup and his eccentric behavior (Such as taking a harem of five wives and two husbands), Karl was generally one of the more effective governors in the early years, doing his best to ensure to fullfil the tax quotas he had promised Hattusa and trying to build up his city, installing forges and even experimenting with plumbing. However Zalpa had a number of cities between it and Hattusa. Foremost among them were the cities of Kaska and Corum. Both of which had a habit of collecting their own taxes on anything coming to or leaving. The largely amounted to wholesale theft of goods and enslavement of Hittite workers. This left Zalpa in a bind economically as it's trade was greatly hampered and it became increasingly difficult for more advanced uptime goods and materials to reach the city. Numerous times Jefferson sent complaints down to Hattusa. And while Sanford was more than sympathetic the most he could do was arrange a (unsuccessful) meeting between the three governors, the council vetoed everything else.
With little other options open to him, Jefferson began diverting his trade to the nearby New Pueblo state. The New Pueblo was hardly unknown to Hattusa as many of the States founders had left Hattusa after the Coup. Relations between the two states was frosty at the best of times. The two states were competing for resources, land, and manpower. Not to mention being ideologically at almost opposite ends. Hattusa generally leaned towards the political right wing and was a highly decentralized state while the New Pueblo was solidly on the left, Anti-Religious and was fairly centralized for the time period. Sanford protested Jefferson's trade agreement but was unable to do anything against him.
Economic ties soon gave way towards political agreements and in 10 A.E Jefferson dropped any pretense of loyalty to Hattusa and officially joined the New Pueblo. Jefferson had actually been considering defection since the first Pueblo traders reached Zalpa. He only waited because it took some time before the New Pueblo came to him with an offer he found to his liking. This defection would not go unanswered, losing part of the Republic was the one thing even the most nominally loyal governor couldn't tolerate, if only out of fear of their enemies using it as a chance invade. Sanford demanded the New Pueblo turn over Zalpa. When they refused he quickly declared war.
The Zalpa War would prove to be a near total disaster for Hattusa. Despite having large numbers and theoretically better weapons, Sanford found himself with an army utterly unprepared to fight the New Pueblo. Many of the governors had kept their best men and weapons in reserve for personal defense and sent Sanford poorly trained Hittite conscripts armed with incredibly crude firearms and in some cases even Bronze weapons. The New Pueblo would utterly smash this army in the Battle of Zalpa, a battle which would cost Sanford an eye.
Sanford was able to prevent a complete collapse by convincing the Governors to release their "Reserves" and form a more proper army. This army was able to deliver a major victory at the Battle of Nerik. Though Sanford lacked the strength to capitalize on the victory and was forced to sign a treaty that acknowledged the New Pueblo's dominion over Zalpa.
The Shackles Loosen
Sanford did his best to make the most of fallout from the Zalpa War. having the governor of Corum imprisoned and his counterpart in Kaska executed for causing the events that lead to the conflict. He then pressed the governors into agreeing to a number of reforms. A ban was placed on provinces taxing other provinces. The Hattusa Council would be expanded to ten members, half appointed by the governors, two elected by the citizens (Americans and those of sufficiently American birth) of Hattusa, and three appointed by the President. With the president acting as a tie breaker in deadlock situations. Sanford was also granted the ability to set the tax quotas for each of the provinces and cities, though they could apply for extensions and exceptions. Most importantly, Sanford was given far more power militarily. Able to set standards for troops strength and equipment, while also able to inspect each governor's forces to ensure standards are being met. These reforms encouraged a rapid restructuring of the armed forces. Most provinces played to their strengths, those with larger populations tended to focus on building larger armies composed of both Americans and 'honorary Americans', while smaller provinces focused more on higher quality guns and artillery. The city of Turhal in particular would become famous for it's metal works.
Sanford was still heavily restrained, but he at least now had the power to ensure nothing like Zalpa would happen again.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
Good governance is hard.
Good governance is hard.
At a point where I would be so tied up like Sanford, I would have just agreed to the terms, wait, gather a punitive force, and made a rapid march and killed all of them. Because at that point a reign of terror would have been preferable to the actual outcome.
Jeez, that mans patience must have been made of carbon nanotubes, or his nerves snapped to be so passive in face of that disaster.
Jeez, that mans patience must have been made of carbon nanotubes, or his nerves snapped to be so passive in face of that disaster.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
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Have I mentioned how much I like this TL's attention to detail? You're really good at this!
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
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Calling it now: The decentralized nature is going to help Hattusa in the long run. The current model could be the basis for something productive in the future.
This update is really good and little stuff like Sanford losing his eye makes the TL come to live. This ATLs history basically writes itself: Sanford the conqueror, twice betrayed but unbroken
All of the stuff is going to be really cool once it is shrouded in myth and nostalgia. Would be really nice to see a comparison between the actual history we read here and the distorted version that people are going to learn about in this ATLs future.
This update is really good and little stuff like Sanford losing his eye makes the TL come to live. This ATLs history basically writes itself: Sanford the conqueror, twice betrayed but unbroken
All of the stuff is going to be really cool once it is shrouded in myth and nostalgia. Would be really nice to see a comparison between the actual history we read here and the distorted version that people are going to learn about in this ATLs future.
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- Great Khanate of Scotland
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Oligarchies do tend to be more stable than one-man autocracies...
I agree, though! There are people trying to write everything down and preserve a record, but how many people will have access to those records? How many copies will survive the next century as everything shakes out, as empires rise and fall? Will there ever be a unified successor state, or will there be multiple "American" cultures? What will become of the downtimers, especially once they get really good at adopting uptime technology and ideas?
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Because on a certain level he does need some of them to help him admistrate the Republic. While some are basically useless, there are others that do a good job admistrating the areas they control, and regretfully the useless ones have allies among the useful ones. A purge would have left him without some genuinely useful people and might have alienated possible allies. Not to mention left the republic weakened at a critical time.
Thanks. That really means a lot considering how much your work inspired this.
History records are probably gonna be weird. Because trade is very important for most of the region so it is interconnected to a degree but the people have already become rather divided by ideology and general politics. What the Minoans write about history will be different from what Arcadia, Troy, New Roman, and the New Pueblo will write. Lot of Literate people around and quite a few of them have axes to grind.
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As they say, it will all come out in the wash. Specifically, in records of trade deals, merchant stock move and shipping, and personal letters.
There is going to be more confusion as to where these Americans came from than how history looked in their times, since their records of "and then Tucson was in Asia Minor" is about as sensible in writing as old Babylonian "and then the kingdom came from the heaven with kings ruling for N-thousand years".
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- a place
Pretty sure Tucson in the future will have tons of reason of just appearing. From gods, demons, aliens, to magic and etc to explain why they just appeared. Though pretty sure instead of Atlantis stories will tell of the ancient. Tucson and their downfall.
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- Great Khanate of Scotland
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It's entirely possible that the existence of Tucson would just short-circuit reasonable scientific analysis.
After all "an entire city was transported thousands of years into the past" is not exactly a workable hypothesis even if it is true. Imagine a world where dragons and centaurs and so forth existed - a theory of evolution would probably never develop.
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There are quite a few who insist there's a rational explanation for what happened it's just beyond their current scientific understanding. Problem is it's not only impossible to explain with modern science, it also seems to be done with some measure of purpose. Which makes any questions about why the Event happened that much more troubling for anyone who puts serious thought into it.
There's a reason Ari Wilson believes Aphrodite Aeria is a real thing even though her mothers admit in private that they basically made her up. Because they can't provide a reasonable explanation for why the event happened, so maybe there is a more super natural explanation for what happened, and who's to say them 'making it up' wasn't just Divine inspiration?
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
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I think the development of scientific theory is going to be weird. The knowledge from Tucson and the mythology of the utopian old world pretty much makes sure that stuff will develop similar to OTL. The ISOT is just going to make sure that stuff like intelligent design will have way more legitimacy than IOTL.
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- Great Khanate of Scotland
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I bet fields like metaphysics and quantum mechanics, if society ever gets around to that level, are going to go up some really blind alleys.
There is no telling if a stagnant counterpart to the Catholic church will not appear, and halt progress in a similar matter.
There is also no telling if the uptime states will not turn hyper closed over centuries in terms of sharing scientific knowledge, given their own outlook on how much designs and ideas can give you an advantage over your neighbor.
Part of the reason why scientific progress worked for our world is that people traveled and shared ideas. But that was after a long period of NOT doing that, and it propelled most Europen countries to global powers in a century.
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean I am fairly optimistic that ISOT world will overtake OTLs development historically. Technological progress just skipped more than a millenium and the developments are inevitably going to spread to Europe and Asia.
And you are right about certain fields like quantum mechanics. The Event is proof that there is a whole hidden layer of reality we have no way of understanding and replicating (for now?). Once science has catched up to a level with room for work not directly related to practical applications there will be wild speculation.
I really doubt that either of those is going to happen. IIRC a family that fled to Italy after trying a coup against Wilson was mentioned. People like this will spread a lot of scientific knowledge. I also really doubt the ability of the new states to keep their technological knowledge from spreading without completely cutting off trade and contact with everyone else. Some states might do that but certainly not everyone.
As far as religion goes: I doubt that we will see a dominant faith for a long time. Both uptimers and downtimers are to religiously diverse and politically fractured to allow a catholic church equivalent.
Sure, there will be Great Conquerors when the kids of the UTs slowly take over. They aren't shackled by the memory of the old world and will be far more willing to endure war. So we are likely to see the first real Empires in a few decades but I just don't think we will see a Rome analogue. No faction has the technological and organizational lead that allowed Rome to snowball as much as it did IOTL. Without a Rome equivalent I just don't think we would see a dominant church like we did IOTL.
Considering the presence and drive ancient philosophers, mathematicians, and alchemists had, and the existence of such agglomerations of knowledge as Rome, Byzantium, Alexandria, not to mention the Arab, Indian Vietnamese and Chinese cities... and yet there we were IRL, the dark ages and successive collapses and loss of knowledge that kept pushing us back.
We have a very painful example of just this happening. Saying it definitely won't is a very long stretch.
Technically Zalpa, or rather New Pueblo is in one of he most favorable positions. Its on the northern shores of Asia Minor, and across the pond are fertile lands of modern Ukraine, and to the east a very defensible and economically worthwhile (land and climate) Georgia.
Be the naval power of the Black Sea, seize Crimea, use the wide navigable rivers to viking your way to the desired snowball effect.
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There is so much barely populated prime real estate that there are several contenders. Wilson's kingdom as a thalassocracy has thw opportunity to settle Italy, the Balkans or even Western Europe or Great Britain.