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In the Shadow of the Old Pueblo-Tucson ISOTed to the Bronze Age

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Honestly, for all their faults, New Pueblo seems like one of the best areas to live if you dint like monarchy. Sure they are going into dangerous waters with purging and all that, but the library project is truly impressive, and makes up for all of it.
 
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Mycenae Part 1
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    • "Mycenae needed a hero. But they didn't have Ajax, or Odysseus, or any of those other legends Homer invented. They just had me, and my black powder. Personally I think I've done more for these people than those legends ever did."
    -Fredrick Chard

    "I both love and hate these Americans in equal measure. One must wonder how great and terrible the future is to produce people like this"
    -Anax Electryon

    The Kingdom of Mycenae is one of the rare states to have survived an American invasion. It is the only Mycenaean city to have never been conquered, though others have been formed by refugees or propped up by American successor states. Despite its survival, the proud kingdom finds itself in a very unfavorable position, surrounded on all sides by Americans, and with the seas choked by the Minoans and the People's Union. Nevertheless the Kingdom survives, helped by former Americans looking for profit and glory

    The City Before The Event
    Uptime Archaeological studies suggest that Mycenae had been occupied since the Neolithic period, although this consisted of little more than a small collection of farming villages until roughly 1800 BCE when the first major shaft graves appeared. By 1600 BCE- generally considered the start of the Mycenaean culture- Mycenae had become a major power in the region, but the city still only partially resembled the one known to uptime archaeologists.

    The version of Mycenae when the Americans arrived was smaller than the one known to Uptime history, its stacked stone walls were shorter and less extensive, and most of the city actually lay outside of the walls. Its version of the Lion's Gate consisted of only a single stone lion's head above the main entrance- in OTL this would have been eventually shattered and lost to history*. The city Inside the walls was relatively cramped, with work space for artisans, guard stations for warriors, apartments for the elites and the Anax's Megaron (a kind of great hall that was used for both religious and royal functions).

    Economically the city was largely focused on the importation of raw goods such as ivory and exporting finished goods such as jewelry to Crete and other places across the Aegean. Gold working was particularly prized. Culturally the city was highly stratified, with the elites of society being buried in shaft graves full of rich grave goods. Mycenaen culture had a strong martial focus, and individual heroics were particularly favored. The Anax was both an important military and religious leader whose victories were seen as sign of the gods' favor.

    At the time of the Event, the city's area of influence was extensive but hard to map, with the number of villages that owed it fealty sometimes changing on a yearly basis due to low level conflicts with other cities.

    The Event and the Chard Siblings

    Like many outside of Anatolia, the people of Mycenae first saw the Event as nothing more than a strange light show on the horizon. Weeks later traders came in with reports of strange people wielding foul magics, ravaging the countryside. The Anax dismissed their tales at first as nothing more nonsense told by sailors who had taken to drinking seawater... then more merchants and travelers came in telling similar stories. Soon the Anax understood he was dealing with something unprecedented, but thankfully it was far away. If it meant anything for his city it meant a change in trade or someone would hire his warriors for a new war.

    Then Knossos fell, and news of the invasion and the woman calling herself King caused a panic in Mycenae. The Anax feared the worst would soon befall his kingdom. What could bronze spears do against these metal sticks that spat divine (or diabolic) fire? For the first time in his entire life the Anax felt powerless. Then one day, just over a year and a half after the Event, two Americans walked up to the gates of the city carrying with them a number of guns. After some confusion caused by a complete lack of communication, the two eventually were able to get across that they'd come here to help the kingdom. Against the advice of the court and even his sons, the Anax invited them into the Megaron.

    In time the siblings were able to introduce themselves as Diana and Fredrick Chard

    The Chard siblings- a home improvement store manager and a university professor respectively- had originally been part of Rachel Wilson's Expedition. Rachel had accepted her former teacher's help easily enough, but they were both quickly thrown out after Fredrick made the mistake of trying to pressure his one time student into giving him command of the adventure.

    This rejection did not deter either sibling for very long, and they quickly got to work formulating their own plan. They soon realized that conquering anything would require a considerable amount of time, effort, and risk, not to mention people. On the other hand aiding one of the existing nations would carry with it a lot less risk and effort, and still get them the benefits of living a life of luxury (well as much luxury as this time period could manage at least). The two hatched a plan and started buying, scavenging, and stealing everything from guns and black powder to bronze tools left behind by the Anatolian natives. When they felt ready the siblings left, using a stolen boat with a few downtimer ships- loaded down with supplies- tied to it. Their trip was slow and cautious but they eventually wound up near an abandoned fishing village in Greece. From there the two pretty much just followed major paths until they came to Mycenae.

    Establishing actual communication was tricky, but once a working translation was made Fredrick sprang into action. True, he was a American Southwest Archaeologist by education, but he knew a bit about the Mycenaeans. He heaped praise upon the Anax, telling him how his city would be considered the Apex of this civilization, and how his death mask would be known thousands of years from now (in fact the Mask of Agamemnon would have been made for the Anax's son, Electryon, though Fredrick had no way of knowing this). In between praising the Anax and his city Fredrick also did his best to make it clear how much danger the Anax was in, recalling numerous tales of the brutal conquest of various towns and cities. He also claimed that he knew for a fact that some of his former countrymen where planning to conqueror the Anax's city. This wasn't strictly true- Fredrick had no knowledge of any specific plans- but he figured sooner or later someone would come for the city. He promised that his sister could rebuild the walls to be five times as strong and that his weapons would kill any foe who would threaten the city.

    His price was steep however, he demanded two manors be built, one for each sibling, with enough land, servants and luxury goods to ensure that the Chards would never wanted for anything ever again. Neither of them had come here out of goodwill towards the Mycenaean. This was their means of securing a safe and easy life for themselves, and they wanted all the Mycenaeans could give them.

    At first the Anax was against this, disturbed that two strange foreigners would dare ask him for so much. Electryon even suggested that they be tossed out of the city. Then Diana demonstrated the power of one of their rifles, completely piercing a shield and armor in two shots. This terrified the warriors of the city. All their strength, all their might, was shown to be completely useless in a matter of moments. The Anax gave in, agreeing to all of Fredrick's demands on the condition he protect the city.

    The siblings went to work immediately.

    Due to their limited supply of weapons and materials, the duo pushed for all efforts to be focused on Mycenae itself. The plan was for any enemy to be broken at the city walls, with the thought that any conquests they made could be dealt with afterwards. Diana mobilized the populace to expand and improve the city's walls in both length and height. Meanwhile, Fredrick got to work on setting up a forge. As an amateur blacksmith, with a some experience gunsmithing (illegal modifications of his own gun collection mostly) and a small collection of books on relevant topics acquired since the Event, he had a foundation to build off of. But Frederick knew what a daunting task he faced. First he created a number of crossbows with bronze-tipped bolts- this was to boost his limited supply of firearms. Then he embarked on a much more ambitious project; a cannon. He hard heard tales of Wilson's victory in Knossos and he knew a cannon would be a game changer. The first one was a molten failure that wasted precious scrap, the second caught his forge on fire, the third was smaller than he wanted but it appeared functional. He couldn't risk testing it due to a very limited supply of black powder and a fear of it malfunctioning, but Frederick lied to the Anax and swore he knew it was ready for use. The cannon was mounted on the new walls as a source of hope for the Anax and the warriors and a source of anxiety for Fredrick.

    The War with Sparta

    News of the Spartan invasion reached Myceane barely three months after the Chard siblings arrived. The Spartans were almost everything the Chards had described; ruthless invaders spreading across the countryside like wildfire, sacking and enslaving every village and city they came across. The tales of Spartan atrocities horrified Myceane, and some of the warriors demanded they fight these thugs on the battlefield. Indeed, Electryon barely prevented the warriors from marching out of the city to their certain deaths.

    The stress of this situation caused the Anax to have a stroke, leaving him nearly invalid, and his son took control of the city.

    Mere weeks after their arrival news came that the Spartans were only a few days march away from Myceane. The walls weren't finished and Fredrick only had a few dozen crossbows ready. But it would have to do.

    In theory the Myceane defense was quite impressive when the Spartans arrived. A dozen men with guns lined the walls accompanied by dozens more with crossbows, and a cannon guarded the main gate. The walls themselves had been made taller and thicker.

    But the reality was less favorable than it appeared, most of the guns only had a few rounds, the cannon was untested and only had two loads worth of gunpowder, and it was unclear if the wall could even handle it firing. This was largely a bluffing game- the Chards needed Raymond Lang and the so called Spartans to blink before they pressed the attack.

    As the Spartans approached the city, Fredrick set his sister out to negotiate. He might have been a smooth talker, but he knew his sister had more of a spine. She would not yield to Lang.

    Unfortunately Lang and Diana Chard's negotiations quickly dissolved into a screaming match, with both sides accusing the other being the worst kind of human being. Raymond threatened to level the city, Diana claimed he would be bled dry in the attempt. The Spartans opted to put the city under siege for two weeks, but the bluff worked and they never attacked.

    As Myceane breathed a sigh of relief news came of a Minoan invasion of New Sparta, of men and women in green uniforms putting most of the southern part of Peloponnesus under siege. Fredrick and Electryon both watched with hungry eyes, realizing how strained and overextended the Spartans where. They knew Mycenae would be hard pressed to take any major villages, but they could make things miserable for the Spartans, maybe even push them to the point of collapse. The warriors were sent out to raid the countryside, stealing crops, attacking vulnerable patrols, arming rebels and doing everything they could to weaken Sparta's holds on the lands near Myceane. For a time things seemed to be going great, and Fredrick started filling Electryon's head with visions of a Mycenaean state stretching all the way to Aeolia (Modern day Thessaly). Then came news from the north of a new army of invaders, this one with swastikas on it's banners.

    Sparta was not the only American faction with it's eyes on Myceane.

    ---​
    *The Lion's Gate in Myceane was actually built after 1600 BCE but I mistakenly made reference to it earlier so I'm supposing that it likely wasn't the first Lion symbol to adorn that gate.
     
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    • The Chard siblings are pretty much exactly what I'd do in this situation - right down to not actually being able to live up to my promises and making things work on spit, luck, and bullshit.
     
    Glad this is back!

    Being in charge sounds like so much stress; being a highly-valued advisor sounds much better.

    Also I thought the Mask of Agammemnon's authenticity was, let's say, disputed?
     
    ScottishMongol said:
    Also I thought the Mask of Agammemnon's authenticity was, let's say, disputed?
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    Yeah that's a source of debate. Most of my teachers tend to have sided on it being real since blundering into incredible finds and then claiming they're connected to the Trojan War is kind of Heinrich Schliemann's thing. So I'm on the side of "It's real but dates to centuries before the time period Schliemann thought it was."
     
    LonelyWolf999 said:
    The Chard siblings are pretty much exactly what I'd do in this situation - right down to not actually being able to live up to my promises and making things work on spit, luck, and bullshit.
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    I mean I see a lot of people do that now. "I'm totally on top of my final paper" *panic writes the entire ten page thing in a weekend fueled by nothing but desperation and Dr.Pepper*

    I imagine it's plenty common here, particularly since I imagine "Oh this seems easy, oh wait, it's not. It's really really not" occurs fairly often.

    Maltaran said:
    The Nazis took over Athens, right?
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    Yep. They're the result of some of the Interesting Bike gangs I've encountered in this city allying together.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    I mean I see a lot of people do that now. "I'm totally on top of my final paper" *panic writes the entire ten page thing in a weekend fueled by nothing but desperation and Dr.Pepper*

    I imagine it's plenty common here, particularly since I imagine "Oh this seems easy, oh wait, it's not. It's really really not" occurs fairly often.
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    Working your reputation and status as an "American" is just as important as actually being able to do science, when you get down to it. I imagine with stuff like braces and other modern beauty/health advances we take for granted, the uptimers even look ethereal.

    Y'know, I've been putting some thought into it, and now I think I get why so many people are pulling all these half-assed stunts to try and seize power. In practically every way, life has become immeasurably worse for the former Tusconites - with one exception. Former truck drivers, college professors, pretty criminals - they all, for the first time in their lives, suddenly have a chance to possess real power. To etch their footprints on history in a way that wasn't even conceivable back home. No wonder so many people seem to abandon all ethics and sense in this desperate surge to conquer, to make a name for themselves, to matter. Who hasn't dreamed of being Isekied one time or another? It'd be intoxicatingly easy to imagine yourself the protagonist of an adventure, especially compared to the dreary misery of substance farming 'normal' people have to settle for.
     
    LonelyWolf999 said:
    Working your reputation and status as an "American" is just as important as actually being able to do science, when you get down to it. I imagine with stuff like braces and other modern beauty/health advances we take for granted, the uptimers even look ethereal.

    Y'know, I've been putting some thought into it, and now I think I get why so many people are pulling all these half-assed stunts to try and seize power. In practically every way, life has become immeasurably worse for the former Tusconites - with one exception. Former truck drivers, college professors, pretty criminals - they all, for the first time in their lives, suddenly have a chance to possess real power. To etch their footprints on history in a way that wasn't even conceivable back home. No wonder so many people seem to abandon all ethics and sense in this desperate surge to conquer, to make a name for themselves, to matter. Who hasn't dreamed of being Isekied one time or another? It'd be intoxicatingly easy to imagine yourself the protagonist of an adventure, especially compared to the dreary misery of substance farming 'normal' people have to settle for.
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    The other thing is that basically no uptimers are actually used to the backbreaking work of subsistence farming. Dying with 40, hoping that your settlement happens to be blessed with a tech-savy person so that you can connect a decaying dvd-player to a decaying solar panel so that you can watch the same 10 movies again and again is a horrifying prospect. You know that you won't be there to reap the benefits of all that hard work. If humanity is lucky they might have a stable late 19th century tech level in 2-4 generations.

    It is not only the power. Grabbing a gun and enslaving some downtimers is the easy way out. Sure, you are watching the same 10 shitty movied until the dvd-player dies but at least you don't have to spend all day doing really, really hard work. The first few months but would be morally repulsive but I am willing to bet that a lot of people would be willing to do evil shit to avoid a life of hard agricultural labour. Especially if there are a ton of convenient excuses. "I am just doing it to preserve as much knowledge as possible!" etc.
     
    Anchises said:
    The other thing is that basically no uptimers are actually used to the backbreaking work of subsistence farming.
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    Anchises said:
    If humanity is lucky they might have a stable late 19th century tech level in 2-4 generations.
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    But on the other hand you can just bet your ass, hat, and all possessions that somewhere out there, are numerous small groups and single units living the good prosperous life, simply because they know how stuff works, how to make more of it, and were savvy enough to learn about low energy farming.

    You have to admit that it would be completely hilarious, if 20-40 years down the line somewhere from between those large empires rides out some sort of techno-barbarian tribe armed with guns, drones, UGV's and a zeppelin.
    And who see the world around them in the exact same way that Uptime Americans saw it as they arrived in the past.
     
    kaazmiz said:
    But on the other hand you can just bet your ass, hat, and all possessions that somewhere out there, are numerous small groups and single units living the good prosperous life, simply because they know how stuff works, how to make more of it, and were savvy enough to learn about low energy farming.

    You have to admit that it would be completely hilarious, if 20-40 years down the line somewhere from between those large empires rides out some sort of techno-barbarian tribe armed with guns, drones, UGV's and a zeppelin.
    And who see the world around them in the exact same way that Uptime Americans saw it as they arrived in the past.
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    This seems preposterously optimistic, if not downright nonsensical. We've been seeing what the absolute savviest and luckiest individuals can pull out of the situation. There is no "low energy farming" trick that'll let people get away with such a thing - the closest thing to what you're envisioning would probably be Trebizond, who've gotten as far away from everything as possible. They even seem to be convincing themselves something like what you'd find 'funny' is in the cards for the future.
     
    I just thought about it. Whatever bastard was smart enough to grab seeds and managed to not kill them now has plants thousands of years of selective breeding ahead of their time. That's a major change from the crops that would otherwise be normal in the region.
     
    Anchises said:
    The other thing is that basically no uptimers are actually used to the backbreaking work of subsistence farming. Dying with 40, hoping that your settlement happens to be blessed with a tech-savy person so that you can connect a decaying dvd-player to a decaying solar panel so that you can watch the same 10 movies again and again is a horrifying prospect. You know that you won't be there to reap the benefits of all that hard work. If humanity is lucky they might have a stable late 19th century tech level in 2-4 generations.

    It is not only the power. Grabbing a gun and enslaving some downtimers is the easy way out. Sure, you are watching the same 10 shitty movied until the dvd-player dies but at least you don't have to spend all day doing really, really hard work. The first few months but would be morally repulsive but I am willing to bet that a lot of people would be willing to do evil shit to avoid a life of hard agricultural labour. Especially if there are a ton of convenient excuses. "I am just doing it to preserve as much knowledge as possible!" etc.
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    That's basically what pushed Rachel Wilson into going William Walker on Crete. She realized she had just murdered and stolen her way out of Tucson, all for a life of utterly backbreaking labor just to survive. And that was not acceptable to her. So in her mind the invasion of Knossos was basically "Well what's a few more sins to make this all worth while." Well that and a growing ego.

    kaazmiz said:
    But on the other hand you can just bet your ass, hat, and all possessions that somewhere out there, are numerous small groups and single units living the good prosperous life, simply because they know how stuff works, how to make more of it, and were savvy enough to learn about low energy farming.

    You have to admit that it would be completely hilarious, if 20-40 years down the line somewhere from between those large empires rides out some sort of techno-barbarian tribe armed with guns, drones, UGV's and a zeppelin.
    And who see the world around them in the exact same way that Uptime Americans saw it as they arrived in the past.
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    I do think you're over optimistic. The biggest thing is tech decays, things rot. Electronics, particularly consumer electronics, aren't meant to last very long. Even at 20 AE, a fair few factions have been scavenging and jury rigging to keep things going. And even that's basically a stop gap. The Movie theater at Knossos, it's not gonna last forever.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    I do think you're over optimistic. The biggest thing is tech decays, things rot. Electronics, particularly consumer electronics, aren't meant to last very long. Even at 20 AE, a fair few factions have been scavenging and jury rigging to keep things going. And even that's basically a stop gap. The Movie theater at Knossos, it's not gonna last forever.
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    Well think back 60-70 years, where all hardened military tech was basically the same quality as the civilian tech. It all ran on tubes, or early transistors, and had magnetic storage memory. We had drones way back then running on what is in essence a bunch of copper wires crossing themselves in a magnetized iron ring, or in a sealed glass tube.

    Yes, it runs against the theme of the setting.
    But, given a more positive view where some of the myriad of people who build those as a hobby survives, we'd definitely see a rapid turn towards such a weird high-low tech setting.

    LonelyWolf999 said:
    There is no "low energy farming" trick that'll let people get away with such a thing
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    There are though?
    Like raised bed compost farming. Or planting crops in decaying hay.
    Or using water boxes (jars) near growing saplings or other small plants.

    People don't use that in setting because they can't know it for the story to tell its peculiar flavor- where people who were only collar workers with no hobbies have no idea about farming, and when confronted with a mountainous rocky terrain to use chose to attack others for what they need rather than use their smarts to get it in an easy fashion. And then succumb to that mentality.
     
    kaazmiz said:
    There are though?
    Like raised bed compost farming. Or planting crops in decaying hay.
    Or using water boxes (jars) near growing saplings or other small plants.

    People don't use that in setting because they can't know it for the story to tell its peculiar flavor- where people who were only collar workers with no hobbies have no idea about farming, and when confronted with a mountainous rocky terrain to use chose to attack others for what they need rather than use their smarts to get it in an easy fashion. And then succumb to that mentality.
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    I wouldn't say people don't know it for the story, they don't know it because Tucson's a big dry city in unfamiliar terrain. A lot of those things aren't know because the internet died, it's Tucson, Arizona. Most people had a day or two before things really hit the fan hard. And then basically they were faced with a situation where the city literally did not have enough food to feed everyone. Not helped by the failing power situation. Then it's mad scramble to get out of the city and get food as fast as possible. Large cities depend on a massive amount of food being delivered on a regular basis. That's now completely gone, as is a lot of refrigeration. Farming takes time people do not have. And by the time things calm down and the starvation has largely stopped, people are scattered, knowledge is lost, Tucson is a lot more dangerous because those who've survived in the city have probably done some ugly things to survive. So knowledge of stuff like is limited.

    I hope that didn't come across as aggressive.
     
    Also you can point to whatever low-tech solution you can think of, what really matters is that people know that and have access to the tools and materials to implement it, which is by no means a certainty, especially when energy and resources could be better spent on more immediate needs.
     
    Yeah, there are definitely a bunch of techniques that don't require more advanced tech that would on their own be thousands of years ahead of their time - just knowing the basic idea of crop rotation is a big one, for example, But none of it is a magic bullet, and all of it requires some basic idea of the technique. (For example I know crop rotation is you switch between crops which eat nitrogen and those which fix nitrogen... unfortunately I only know a tiny number that fix nitrogen.)

    Basically, there are a lot of things that are just lost. Advanced electronics, for example, require a global trade network to produce properly. On the other hand the basics of electricity and fertilizer production are things most college grads could put together sufficiently.

    ...And, well, all it takes is one person remembering the Bessemer process to change everything. Iron exists in the region, and a cheap way to make mid-high quality steel? It isn't as good as the stuff scavenged from Tuscon, but it would be reproducible.
     
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    Next update is coming soon I swear but in the meantime someone on the AH.com thread posted a video on the Minoans that's incredibly informative and interesting. And a Jojo reference.



    For the record Rachel Wilson wears a modified verison of that dress that covers up the exposed middle with purple fabric.
     
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