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In the Shadow of the Old Pueblo-Tucson ISOTed to the Bronze Age

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Teen Spirit said:
Though there are always rumors of some person or family saying to England, France or even to America in a desperate bid to get home.
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*sailing

Teen Spirit said:
They wagons have proven of mixed effectiveness, being largely effective against less developed factions but their slow speed and large size making them vulnerable to heavy weapons fire and explosives.
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*These

Teen Spirit said:
As for powdered flight, those prop-driven planes that remained in Tucson were one of the first targets hit by scavengers, and most were too complex to even consider maintaining.
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*powered

On a side note I'm quite surprised there is no mention of drones or gliders.
The first ones are relatively resilient, with the most complicated items being integrated circuits- but those are already quite strong due to the application they are used in.
Even a very simple amateur drone (both helis and pizza box planes) being charged over a whole day, if it made a few shots (not even live streaming) and downloaded on a smartphone or tablet (both also low voltage applications) would be of immense use in warfare and agriculture.
There are also compressed air engines whose tanks can be filled by hand/leg pumps for a few minutes of flight.

Gliders (or paired with air engines) could likewise be used very locally (launched from hills) for a similar purpose as drones, or as a defensive/scouting measure.
Just a few hundred meters up for a few minutes, and you could spot anyone trying to reach you days in advance.
Though I suppose as mentioned hot air balloons would be a safer and more permanent solution.

ExNihilo said:
Huh. You mentioned rough terrain in the land section, but have more developed countries, my thoughts would be Egypt and Crete mostly, been experimenting with road design? How does one build a cost-effective road for chariots and wagons, and how much can uptime innovations help there.
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Road proliferation will be massive, and a great boon to trade the likes of which both bronze and iron age did not see IRL.
King road drag
 
kaazmiz said:
Road proliferation will be massive, and a great boon to trade the likes of which both bronze and iron age did not see IRL.
King road drag
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That's really neat. I assumed that all new road production would have to be massive labor expenditures, like roman roads or whatnot, where you have to dig up five feet below the surface in order to get a good road. While that would be better, no doubt, the King Road drag is simple enough that everyone could do it.
 
ExNihilo said:
That's really neat. I assumed that all new road production would have to be massive labor expenditures, like roman roads or whatnot, where you have to dig up five feet below the surface in order to get a good road. While that would be better, no doubt, the King Road drag is simple enough that everyone could do it.
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Yeah, there is little question about superiority of a road (Roman) that made once can, even with a minimum of maintenance, survive and operate for millennia, as opposed to a road that will turn into a semi liquid marsh once some heavy rains hit and a few wagons plow its surface.
So seasonality of land trade might become a thing. But its still more than many people could have expected for millennia in that universe.

Not to mention a heavy proliferation in local trade via pulled carts, and small one animal wagons. Since the next village over isn't a few hours away now, but just a quarter down the road.
 
kaazmiz said:
*sailing


*These


*powered

On a side note I'm quite surprised there is no mention of drones or gliders.
The first ones are relatively resilient, with the most complicated items being integrated circuits- but those are already quite strong due to the application they are used in.
Even a very simple amateur drone (both helis and pizza box planes) being charged over a whole day, if it made a few shots (not even live streaming) and downloaded on a smartphone or tablet (both also low voltage applications) would be of immense use in warfare and agriculture.
There are also compressed air engines whose tanks can be filled by hand/leg pumps for a few minutes of flight.

Gliders (or paired with air engines) could likewise be used very locally (launched from hills) for a similar purpose as drones, or as a defensive/scouting measure.
Just a few hundred meters up for a few minutes, and you could spot anyone trying to reach you days in advance.
Though I suppose as mentioned hot air balloons would be a safer and more permanent solution.


Road proliferation will be massive, and a great boon to trade the likes of which both bronze and iron age did not see IRL.
King road drag
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Thanks. and I added a brief mention of drones. They're seeing some limited use.
kaazmiz said:
Yeah, there is little question about superiority of a road (Roman) that made once can, even with a minimum of maintenance, survive and operate for millennia, as opposed to a road that will turn into a semi liquid marsh once some heavy rains hit and a few wagons plow its surface.
So seasonality of land trade might become a thing. But its still more than many people could have expected for millennia in that universe.

Not to mention a heavy proliferation in local trade via pulled carts, and small one animal wagons. Since the next village over isn't a few hours away now, but just a quarter down the road.
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Yeah, well built roads have a number of distinct advantages and they're definitely being built, on a relatively small scale though. Because cooperation between various factions is pretty limited.
 
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Teen Spirit said:
Yeah, well built roads have a number of distinct advantages and they're definitely being built, on a relatively small scale though. Because cooperation between various factions is pretty limited.
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It's a given that people will not look that favorably on building large highways between the various states.
But internally roads between villages, as well as connecting settlements to central towns and cultural centers will be of immense use.
Eventually traders themselves will sponsor roads to be hardened between border villages for their own convenience without even a states involvement.
 
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Flags
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    • "Never underestimate a flag. In the hands of the right person, those simple bits of cloth can push men to do great and terrible things."
    - Elicia Baxter, 'The World Since the Event'

    Since WW2 and particularly since the early 2000s, the United States of America was a nation that was very enthusiastic about it's flags. Proudly waving the stars and stripes and other flags from their homes, businesses and even occasionally cars to a degree that some outside observers found troubling. Since the Event the tradition has endured, with many using it as a way to better define their new nations.

    Flags since the Event
    In the Early days after the Event, flying the American flag (or any flag for that matter) proved a relatively easy way for people to cement their claims on the villages they had taken. A flag flying from some makeshift pole was a good indication to anyone traveling near by that the village had already been claimed and thus wasn't worth the effort to try and take. Stealing food from bronze age villages was a lot less risky than stealing food from people armed with guns and explosives.

    Many of the smaller villagers still fly the Stars and Stripes, or occasionally the state of Arizona's flag, in part out of some lingering patriotism or nationalism but also as a way of telling traveling merchants that this village was at least controlled by Americans (and thus would be more profitable to visit).

    As larger states started to form the larger political entities quickly ran into an issue, many of them were using the same flag. Staking a claim could become rather complicated if all the factions fighting over the land had the same exact flag. More than a few fights were caused by this. This led to many factions modifying the Stars and Stripes to some degree. The Republic of Greece takes great pride in the intentionally patchwork design of their flag. The Emergency Safety Commission has replaced the 50 stars with one large one (unintentionally remaking the flag of Liberia), while The People's Union has replaced the Stripes with a solid red. The Emergency Council flies the flag unmodified but upside down, a Pre-Event signal of the country being in distress; while the Republic of Troy flies a black and white variant of the flag with a blue line running across the middle. The New Tucson Republic has replaced the stars in their flag with the city's seal. Sparta has a similar modification with the stars and blue field behind them replaced with a golden Lambda (The symbol of pre-event Sparta) upon a red field. Notably factions such as New Washington and Trebizond specifically have not modified their flags in anyway as a way of reinforcing their claims that they're legitimate successors to the old US government.

    Other pre-Event American flags and symbols have been adopted by various factions. Globe uses the Gadsden flag, a flag favored by the Libertarian right, as their national flag. The Arizona National Guard still flies the old state flag while Wildcat Country flies a variant where the star in the center has been replaced with the A from the University of Arizona. The Progress Republic of New California flies the California state flag. Even non-national or state flags have been taken and used by various factions. The American Empire flies a modified version of the Coast Guard Flag while the State of Rome proudly flies the flag of the US Air Force. While the Neo-Nazis of Athens use many of the same hateful banners they waved before the Event. The Free Republic of Cyprus uses a modified version of the LGBT pride flag that has the blue field of 50 stars from the American flag in the upper left corner.

    The use of these symbols has led to some outrage and even hostility among the various factions, as many argue the others are claiming symbols they have no right to, almost always ignoring the fact that their faction has done more or less the same thing. And two factions claiming the same flag has led to full on conflict, such as the conflicts between Thrace and the Republic of Rome as both consider themselves the true legacy of the US Air Force.

    A couple of factions have even developed flags wholesale as a way of distancing themselves from the US or it's legacy. The most notable example of this being the Minoan Kingdom who flies a blue, white and green vertical tricolor flag with a double headed axe in the center. They also make heavy use of a purple royal banner, marked with a symbol of Aphrodite Aeria, a Crown over a Sword and Rifle. The Hyksos have even began making limited use of flags, their merchant ships flying a simple solid yellow banner as way of identifying themselves to trading partners and warning off possible pirates. Most downtime factions haven't yet adopted a flag, seeing it as a waste of dyes. But some, particularly the Mycenaeans, have began to see it's merits. And wonder if a proper flag would give the various surviving city states something to unite behind.

    For the most part factions have depended upon old flags and fabric collected from Tucson by hired scavengers and sponsored salvage operations. But time and the elements have taken their toll, with many flags becoming faded and battered by the elements. And with stockpiles of pre-Event fabric now largely being prioritized for clothing and medical use, for many communities it has simply become impractical to use Tucson as a source for flags. And with dyes, particularly blue, being hard to import and incredibly costly, many communities now find themselves facing a choice on how to handle this going forward. Many, such as the Minoans and People's Union have considered redesigning their flags to use cheaper and easier to find dye colors, other communities have taken to painting their flag on the sides of buildings, while most smaller communities have taking to limiting when they fly their flags, saving them for calmer parts of the year or even just special events. These are mostly temporary solutions and many villages now fly tattered and washed out flags, fading echos of the country they lost.
    /
    So this wasn't an update I had originally planned but I saw a truck driving past work the other day with a giant flag on a pole in it's bed. That's when I remembered that my country is kind of freaking weird with flags and I figured I should explain how that developed in this. Hopefully this was interesting.
     
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    • Teen Spirit said:
    Several people have remarked on it. At first the ESC was kind of like "Oh for crying out loud" but now just kind of shrugs it off.
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    From a certain point of view, the ESC came first (depending on how you look at the timeline.) Therefore, it can be argued that Liberia is the one copying the ESC flag. This logic may seem a bit flawed, but it is also true that Liberia cannot dispute the ESC's claim, seeing as it currently doesn't exist.

    …Hrm, ISOT'd Liberia. Wonder how that would go (and when would be the most appropriate time to be ISOT'd?)
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    about flags
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    Some nitpicking here (yeah sorry, its me again), but most of those flags wouldn't be made, simply because nobody would have enough dyes for them.
    Especially the purples, blacks and blues.

    Like, once the old US flags wear down there would be no economic way of replacing the blue dye due to costs.
    Blue and purple were made from flower petals into 'cakes' (dye blocks) which were worth fortunes.

    The Hittites could impose huge tariffs on indigo trade, to hurt the former US successors to the north.
    Meanwhile Egypt could force others to "behave" or refuse trade of its indigo stock, and thus shake the validity of entire nations as successors to the US simply for their lack of symbolic flags.

    So anyone wanting some flags hanging over their settlement/village/town would be forced to use locally available dyes to make them as common symbols.
    Different shades of browns, greens, pale reds and yellows.

    It would be a neat allegory between the fading of the flags, with no way to maintain them and the symbol they represented, as well as their old way of life slowly fading away from memory, being replaced with a new bleaker, local reality.

    It wouldn't be strange for a new version of an old tradition to emerge, where typically people go hang their flag up in the morning, and take it down by nightfall- here people make a flag to hang up when spring comes around to signal the start of the new year, then take it down by fall, to be fixed, or ceremonially replaced.
    Similarly to a rite of burning/floating Morana small wooden casket with the old flag could be prepared to place the flag in it, and then burn it.
     
    kaazmiz said:
    Some nitpicking here (yeah sorry, its me again), but most of those flags wouldn't be made, simply because nobody would have enough dyes for them.
    Especially the purples, blacks and blues.

    Like, once the old US flags wear down there would be no economic way of replacing the blue dye due to costs.
    Blue and purple were made from flower petals into 'cakes' (dye blocks) which were worth fortunes.

    The Hittites could impose huge tariffs on indigo trade, to hurt the former US successors to the north.
    Meanwhile Egypt could force others to "behave" or refuse trade of its indigo stock, and thus shake the validity of entire nations as successors to the US simply for their lack of symbolic flags.

    So anyone wanting some flags hanging over their settlement/village/town would be forced to use locally available dyes to make them as common symbols.
    Different shades of browns, greens, pale reds and yellows.

    It would be a neat allegory between the fading of the flags, with no way to maintain them and the symbol they represented, as well as their old way of life slowly fading away from memory, being replaced with a new bleaker, local reality.

    It wouldn't be strange for a new version of an old tradition to emerge, where typically people go hang their flag up in the morning, and take it down by nightfall- here people make a flag to hang up when spring comes around to signal the start of the new year, then take it down by fall, to be fixed, or ceremonially replaced.
    Similarly to a rite of burning/floating Morana small wooden casket with the old flag could be prepared to place the flag in it, and then burn it.
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    I'm torn. Because on the one hand I agree with most of what you're saying. And I really do like the imagery. But at the same time, Tucson has a buttload of flags for sale and fabric stores, not to mention print shops and places to buy dye (though dye probably expires) And a lot of the flags are made from stuff that lasts well in the incredibly harsh Arizona sun. Keep in mind most of these flags are not custom made (notable exception being the Minoans who have good trade with Egypt) they're basically flags that already exist or are modified. So what you're saying will eventually be true, in a decade or so . But for now there's enough supplies that most factions are okayish but some of the less well off ones are either flying very battered flags or are having to adapt. I'll figure out how to write that in.
     
    Prussian Blue is 1700'-era tech. 20 years after the event, Minoans seems to be experimenting with early-XIX century levels of native industry anyway.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    But at the same time, Tucson has a buttload of flags for sale and fabric stores, not to mention print shops and places to buy dye (though dye probably expires) And a lot of the flags are made from stuff that lasts well in the incredibly harsh Arizona sun.
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    Paint will dry out and leave cake/powder behind, you can reactivate it with chemicals (for same properties) or water (but this makes it lose some of its properties)

    When I wrote that I did consider that Tucson had to had a lot of paint in various forms available to it, however many of them are ill suited for dyes (like wall paint), and people would prioritize other of the many more valuable items to salvage.

    As for synthetic flags holding out in the sun- the Mediterranean region is also heavy rains, salty winds, and lots of bugs that enjoy various types of cloth, and will not shy away from nibbling on those flags (not like they can know better)- so even those synthetic flags will over time pale due to the different climate they suddenly find themselves in.
    I also doubt there would be that many flags just lying around ready for scavengers, or that many people took them(or even thought about them) when running away.
    Teen Spirit said:
    So what you're saying will eventually be true, in a decade or so .
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    Like I said: fading of the old life symbolized by the fading colors.
    Definitely more of a cinematic moment, but it gets the sentiment across.

    liberty90 said:
    Prussian Blue is 1700'-era tech.
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    Yes, and one of its ingredients is a critically valuable antiseptic, while the other is highly toxic and can cause kidney failure.
    So it's a rather hard pill to swallow in either case.
     
    liberty90 said:
    Prussian Blue is 1700'-era tech. 20 years after the event, Minoans seems to be experimenting with early-XIX century levels of native industry anyway.
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    Tech is not going to rebound evenly across the board. Just because they have steam engines strong enough to power boats doesn't mean they can easily recreate everything of that era.

    kaazmiz said:
    Paint will dry out and leave cake/powder behind, you can reactivate it with chemicals (for same properties) or water (but this makes it lose some of its properties)

    When I wrote that I did consider that Tucson had to had a lot of paint in various forms available to it, however many of them are ill suited for dyes (like wall paint), and people would prioritize other of the many more valuable items to salvage.

    As for synthetic flags holding out in the sun- the Mediterranean region is also heavy rains, salty winds, and lots of bugs that enjoy various types of cloth, and will not shy away from nibbling on those flags (not like they can know better)- so even those synthetic flags will over time pale due to the different climate they suddenly find themselves in.
    I also doubt there would be that many flags just lying around ready for scavengers, or that many people took them(or even thought about them) when running away.
    Like I said: fading of the old life symbolized by the fading colors.
    Definitely more of a cinematic moment, but it gets the sentiment across.
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    You make some very solidly good points. I'll do some editing on the section sometime today tomorrow.

    Probably gonna have to rethink the Minoan flag. Maybe, I mean almost everything I've seen suggests the Minoans had blue clothing for priestesses.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    Maybe, I mean almost everything I've seen suggests the Minoans had blue clothing for priestesses.
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    Yeah, the privileged class that could afford to buy indigo cakes. But with most of the economy ruined by the event the prices would likely soar up.
    Then providing a flag for ships, buildings, unit guidons etc. It costs.
    Flags are symbols, but to serve their purpose they need to be seen and used- and that requires investments in goods to make them.

    It really wouldn't be that surprising for people to go into making flags of such expensive materials, only to realize after a few years that its just wholly unsustainable long term, and that it depends too much on the whims of outside actors (trade).
     
    So I've edited it to incorporate what @kaazmiz was saying. Most states realize they're gonna have to shift colors and construction methods soons. Others really don't want to acknowledge that it's now incredibly hard to find blue dye that isn't massively expensive.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    So I've edited it to incorporate what @kaazmiz was saying. Most states realize they're gonna have to shift colors and construction methods soons. Others really don't want to acknowledge that it's now incredibly hard to find blue dye that isn't massively expensive.
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    Great work on a fast update!
    The look on some of the leaders faces when they'd be forced to buy an indigo cake with gold would be priceless though.
     
    So I'm gonna edit things in a couple of days because after doing further research. I have seen a number of alternate sources for blue that should work for most flags unless people are being really pedantic about colors, which some people will be. Almost certainly no real update this week, I got finals. But hopefully something next week.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    So I'm gonna edit things in a couple of days because after doing further research. I have seen a number of alternate sources for blue that should work for most flags unless people are being really pedantic about colors, which some people will be. Almost certainly no real update this week, I got finals. But hopefully something next week.
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    I agree. I think that even in a situation where blue is a rare and expensive dye you're going to see people using for flags. There may be a limited number of those flags and they may be very expensive, but national flags hold a place in modern American society similar to a lot of the royal and religious stuff that got expensive dyes in primitive societies IOTL.
     
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