Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Sure, the exact number of their age doesn't matter, but they're clearly past Equestria's age of adulthood.
For a large part of human history across many cultures adulthood wasn't a age, but an achievement. Once you did your first hunt, built your own fishing boat, etc. Maybe Ponies just consider you an adult as soon as you get your cutie mark and the age doesn't matter. Which does put the cutie mark crusaders in a new light.
 
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For a large part of human history across many cultures adulthood wasn't a age, but an achievement. Once you did your first hunt, built your own fishing boat, etc. Maybe Ponies just consider you an adult as soon as you get your cutie mark and the age doesn't matter. Which does put the cutie mark crusaders in a new light.
The point is that Equestria might have an age of majority of 13 or so. A 17 year old would then be considered well into adulthood.
The chronological age doesn't matter. They're adult ponies. They act like it, talk like it, look like it, are treated like it, and fulfill roles like it.

They don't even come off as teenagers who are considered adults in their culture or whatever. They're young adults, sure, but they've clearly been adults for at least a couple of years or two -- and other adults we see treat them as equals every time. Plus, on the rite of passage thing, the Cutie Mark Crusaders didn't suddenly start careers because of their Cutie Marks, and them and all their classmates were still very much considered kids, Cutie Mark or no

The only evidence for them being teenagers is the mirror thing, which demonstrably doesn't even work that way. Literally, there's no one who's demonstrably the same age in both sides of the mirror and at least three characters who demonstrably aren't (Sunset, Celestia & Luna)
 
Although - in 'Magic Duel', Twilight genuinely thinks that Trixie was able to change the ages of Snips and Snails, commenting that "An age spell? But... how could you do an age spell? That's only for the highest level unicorns!" So it's entirely possible that given her prodigal status and experience over Twilight, Sunset Shimmer was able to cast an age spell on herself and keep herself young. As you point out, time and age manipulation spells seem to be a thing. The ramifications of that are certainly interesting.
Fun fact Trixie is an alumni of CSGU and attended classes at the same time as Twilight.
Hell they enrolled the Same Day.
She is a Fairly skilled Practitioner of Magic just not capable of throwing huge amounts of Magic around.
 
The only evidence for them being teenagers is the mirror thing, which demonstrably doesn't even work that way. Literally, there's no one who's demonstrably the same age in both sides of the mirror and at least three characters who demonstrably aren't (Sunset, Celestia & Luna)
Twilight is, as of the start of Episode 1 at least, still attending the same school she's been in since she was a tiny child. It's obviously set up differently from IRL schools so hard to really say if she's in a high school or college equivalent, but she's definitely not much past her early 20s.

Also, "act like it/talk like it" is very arguable, in both directions since it is a kids show.A lot of the episodes make more sense if they're late teen to very early 20s equivalent rather than full adults, since adults wouldn't generally act that way. They're too old for sleepovers but it seemed like that's a relatively recent thing rather than being so far out of the reasonable age range that it's not even worth mentioning.

For further evidence: In this story, Sunset has explicitly stated she's a teenager (and is 15 according to Cadence). She acts fairly similar to season 1 Twilight in a lot of ways, which suggests at the very least that Twilight isn't that much more mature.
This is taking place 12 years pre-canon. Twilight is very young but not a toddler, maybe 5 or 6 years old (I assume the Rainboom should be happening pretty soon). If so, that'd put Twilight at 18 as of the start of the show: older than current Sunset but only by a few years.
 
Awesome chapter, I'm so happy <3
She clearly has difficulties trusting this, but she accepted and Celestia has started to shift how she communicates as well. It's a good start to a new chapter between the two, even if I foresee drama in them both trying to adjust to their new dynamics.
 
Whew. Okay. Disaster averted. It's expected Sunset would misunderstand this. Point is, she accepted the adoption, she's enjoying it enough her defensiveness against Celestia is cracking, and allowing Celestia that close in the first place will probably eventually let Celestia figure out and clear those misconceptions. Thanks for the chapter Alivaril!

But to those debating about Mane 6's age... Take that to canon mlp debates please? I don't see how that discussion is relevant to this story.
 
B) Twilight was significantly younger than her entire friend group
I love this headcanon. You've got all these, like, mid-twenties small business owners and the like (we've got a veterinarian/animal sanctuary operator, a weather maintenance technician training to be a pro athlete, a fashion designer, a bulk apple farmer and a baker/party planner) who've all pretty much got their lives together, and then this genius failgirl who is just barely eighteen and graduated early from the most prestigious university in the country and has no fucking clue how to interact with people. It makes the show's initial dynamic like twenty percent funnier.

EDIT: Especially if you add this dynamic into the mix.

 
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"There's little that would make me happier," I said honestly, following Celestia's example and keeping my misgivings hidden. "Thank you so very much, Prin—er, 'Mother?'"

Alright! Way to not screw yourself out of what you want for no good reason Sunset. Now just gotta realize that this is not a plot of some kind and you're good.

Celestia sighed with relief and slowly rose back to her hooves. Really, she had been worried that I would say no? What mare in her right mind would refuse this kind of offer from Princess Celestia?

You're most incorrect assumption yet is thinking that she believes you're in your right mind.

I believe you might consider it an unwelcome distraction from your studies, yet I clearly do not know nearly as much about your desires as I thought I did.

Wow, growth! Check out the humble on that princess!

Additionally, I had watched Princess Celestia overwork herself long enough to know that the offer was more complex than just being given gifts. With rights came responsibilities.

You know had you said this part out loud you probably would have gotten those headpats you want so much. Show that you do get the responsibility that comes with being royal, not just the privilege to set manes on fire.

Case in point: resorting to the current adoption after I defied her orders and approached alicorn ascension without her aid. Her backup plan should I reject this likely wouldn't be half as gentle.

Sigh. Kid someone seriously needs to find you a therapist stat. Maybe a family therapist you can visit with Mom too while you're at it.

A side note I'm not really much of an MLP fan. I got introduced to Sunset through that one RWBY fanfic I forget the name of off the top of my head and loved the character, then read more fanfic as well as the Friendship is Dragons webcomic so I'm coming at the fandom sideways. That said between Sunset thinking Celestia now sees her as being younger and Twilights whole magic kindergarten fear I'm sensing an odd pattern in Celestia's students.
 
It's obviously set up differently from IRL schools so hard to really say if she's in a high school or college equivalent
Actually, there are RL schools that will go all the way from kindergarten or first grade to the end of high school, and some of those have semesters and such! They're very unusual and are often private schools, but they exist.

I love this headcanon. You've got all these, like, mid-twenties small business owners and the like (we've got a veterinarian/animal sanctuary operator, a weather maintenance technician training to be a pro athlete, a fashion designer, a bulk apple farmer and a baker/party planner) who've all pretty much got their lives together, and then this genius failgirl who is just barely eighteen and graduated early from the most prestigious university in the country and has no fucking clue how to interact with people. It makes the show's initial dynamic like twenty percent funnier.
I don't think I ascribe to this theory but I still think it's hilarious.

A side note I'm not really much of an MLP fan.
It's actually been quite gratifying to see how many readers I've been netting who aren't, really. (Welcome to SV!) That being said:
Username said:
*suspicious squinting*
Are you sure that you are not a "MLP fan" because you are, in fact, a pony? :mob:
 
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It's obviously set up differently from IRL schools so hard to really say if she's in a high school or college equivalent, but she's definitely not much past her early 20s.
It always came across as more of a post-grad thing to me, since it's clear she doesn't have regular classes anymore and is just Celestia's personal student now. (Not to mention she comes across as someone who'd have skipped grades and graduated the equivalent high-school early, I'd say) Basically, she's the equivalent someone in academia, IMO. But yeah, she's definitely the equivalent of a young adult at the oldest.
Actually, there are RL schools that will go all the way from kindergarten or first grade to the end of high school, and some of those have semesters and such! They're very unusual and are often private schools, but they exist.
I'll be honest, I didn't realize that was unusual at all. Probably a cultural thing
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
A side note I'm not really much of an MLP fan. I got introduced to Sunset through that one RWBY fanfic I forget the name of off the top of my head and loved the character, then read more fanfic as well as the Friendship is Dragons webcomic so I'm coming at the fandom sideways. That said between Sunset thinking Celestia now sees her as being younger and Twilights whole magic kindergarten fear I'm sensing an odd pattern in Celestia's students.
Yeah, honestly Celestia's kind of a shit teacher. Not because she can't teach, but because all of her students become complete trainwrecks on the emotional level.
 
Yeah, honestly Celestia's kind of a shit teacher. Not because she can't teach, but because all of her students become complete trainwrecks on the emotional level.
I think it relates to how Celestia seems to rely on an indirect approach to teaching. She leaves lots of things unsaid to encourage her students to think for themselves and reach the answer on their own, but this kinda results in the student's wrong assumptions never being challenged.

I suspect that if Twilight or Sunset had received a more traditional education for more of their life, they wouldn't have as many bad assumptions that Celestia never realized existed/needed to be corrected.
 
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In Equestria Girls, all the Mane Six characters are age 17-18 because they are seniors in high school. This is backed up by Sunset's comments on the number of fall formals she's attended, driver's licenses, etc. (There are some strange issues with the mirror universe which suggest it's not precisely IRL Earth, and the legality of a lot of stuff is more down to a kid's understanding, but in general the behavior and age matches up).

Sunset Shimmer is the big exception, of course, and a show that we can't necessarily count on Equestria!Twilight's age as matching up with her apparent age in the mirror universe - it seems the mirror made Sunset a teen, perhaps because 99.99% of the people depicted on the 'mirror' side looked like teens. But it seems very likely that we are meant to consider the mirrorverse Equestria Girls as Equestria equivalents in age.

Plus, there's no rule that says counterparts are even close to each other in age -- Celestia and Luna being the most blatant examples.

Perhaps rather than Pony!Twilight and Human!Twilight actually being the same age, the spell on the mirror just finds your local counterpart and roughly matches you to them? It would help with the whole swapping species thing so you fit in locally. So, since Pony!Twilight's local counterpart is a teenaged human female so is Twilight Sparkle when she went through?

Potato Potato. But if her talent was just finding gems I suspect that she would focus more on that part. But nopony seems to have a special talent that is 'just' anything.

Edit: I expect that her talent might generalize to finding beauty and showing it to others.

I don't think it makes them, but ponies get really enthusiastic about pursuing their special talent.

I laugh every time I read someone doing the 'potato potato' thing in written form, because I don't read it as 'po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe' but as the same pronunciation twice then realize what they meant.

But seriously, I've always thought that the cutie marks don't have to be literal. Like your edit, Rarity's cutie mark isn't really about gemstones. She got her cutie mark when she found a giant rock, was disappointed that it was just a rock, but then learned it was a geode with beautiful gemstones inside. Her realization was probably something about 'finding the beauty within' or 'even the most mundane can be special' then decided she wanted to go around helping others find/express that. The reason her mark looks like gemstones has nothing to do with gems themselves but because gems are what she thought of as symbolizing her special talent when she got it. Sort of like Cheerilee's smiling flowers being the smiles of her students. What pony cutie marks look like probably rely heavily on their culture and backgrounds. So two ponies with otherwise completely similar talents might have vastly different marks depending on where, when, and how they grew up and got their marks.

Edit: Rarity does fashion because good fashion is meant to enhance and compliment a person's looks and confidence.
 
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Yeah, honestly Celestia's kind of a shit teacher. Not because she can't teach, but because all of her students become complete trainwrecks on the emotional level.
I think it relates to how Celestia seems to rely on an indirect approach to teaching. She leaves lots of things unsaid to encourage her students to think for themselves and reach the answer on their own, but this kinda results in the student's wrong assumptions never being challenged.

I suspect that if Twilight or Sunset had received a more traditional education for more of their life, they wouldn't have as many bad assumptions that Celestia never realized existed/needed to be corrected.
In fairness, given Sunset's canon issues and the resolution of MLP:FIM I think a big part of is that Celestia has consistently been sort of aiming for the idea of training a potential replacement with her students which is an absurd goal.

Some are probably more of a long shot than others, but the idea is that she's training her student to not just be an administrator or politician or researcher but an immortal ruler and protector.

That... Is kind of a challenge, especially given how badly things went with Luna, with Sombra proving it's not even necessary for a unicorn to become an alicorn to be a huge threat. And there's the whole challenge of the requirements for her student becoming an alicorn over and above that. She needs to balance making them a complete powerhouse, but not too powerhungry. She needs them to have real friends, not just pawns or socialite contacts. She needs them to be critical thinkers and innovators, not just invested in the status quou. And she needs them to be brave enough to fight off threats to her ponies, but not warmongers.

It's just a kind of impossible ideal, and I can see how it might lead a person to make superficially awful choices to avoid very unlikely but legitimately apocalyptic scenarios. Like, Sunset Shimmer was right to be upset with Celestia for not trusting her in canon, but she DID in fact steal a powerful magical artifact and intend to return with it to conquer Equestria at one point... So yeah.
 
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In Celestia's defense both Sunset Shimmer and Twilight ended up doing pretty well for themselves in canon. If nothing else she has a good eye for potential.

Also Twilight was kind of an anxiety ridden mess even before she became Celestia's student - her panicking at the exam after being startled is how she became a student in the first place. And clearly Celestia learned from her experience with Sunset on some level because at the beginning of the show she basically just told Twilight to go touch some grass and make friends which was exactly what Twilight needed.

In Sunset's case here there are a couple of factors that I find... difficult to blame Celestia for. One thing is that Sunset was a genius orphan who was suddenly thrust into the highest of high society which is something that she wasn't and couldn't have been prepared for - but short of just not becoming Celestia's student this isn't really something Celestia could have done much about as most of the scorn directed at Sunset would have almost certainly not happened under her ludicrously overworked and busy eye - it would have happened while she was off doing politics things and Sunset was being tutored. Related to that Sunset's entire preCelestia childhood probably inform her woldview and decisions much more than the audience might think - Celestia could have been the single greatest parent of all time with no other responsibilities at all and Sunset might have still just screwed up all on her own due to her own preconceived biases and experiences. Likewise after a certain point blaming the parent/guardian for the child's failings becomes stupid - and Sunset's decisions both in this fic and canon are I think over that line.

This doesn't really change the fact that Celestia fucked up. She claims not to be a perfect deity but it is clear that she's trying to be - but she has so so much power and respect that until the Voice came along (and maybe Luna coming back in canon) there was nobody who could call her out or attempt to share the burden with her. She is however a good pony at heart and is thus recognizing her failings and trying to do better. Which is hopefully a point that Sunset will reach as well.
 
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Problem Celestia is facing is that if she fucks up, the world ends.
So i can kinda understand why she sticks to things that have worked (proof: worlds continued existence) for centuries.
Problem is that the approach needed to govern a nation and keep the world existing, is not equally helpfull when raising, or even just teaching, a child.
 
One of three things is happening A) people just start living life really young in Equestria on account of the target audience B) Twilight was significantly younger than her entire friend group C) Twilight is a full adult and got heavily de-aged when going to the human world to match her local counterpart.

Personally C feels the least likely, and I didn't get the impression that there were significant age gaps between the Mane Six.
I don't remember all the details, but didn't all the members of the Mane Six get their marks on the same day because of Rainbow Dash?
Applejack was alone in Manehattan for example, when Twilight Sparkle was doing the entrance exam to the school. Rarity meanwhile used the gems she found for a school play costume?

So I'd expect there to be at least a few years of age difference, but not decade+: When Twilight was only applying for entrance to a prestigious school, Rarity is clearly already in school, Applejack was old enough that travelling alone to a big city wasn't considered massively unusual by random bystanders, Rainbow Dash had summer camp, Fluttershy was on the same camp, Pinkie Pie was old enough to partake in farm work on the rock farm.
 
*suspicious squinting*
Are you sure that you are not a "MLP fan" because you are, in fact, a pony? :mob:

Ha. You had me actually googling to see if there was a character named that or something.


You know suddenly I can't help but think of my "I can't believe I have to say this" list and imagining Celestia needing one for future students. (That's my list of things people who report to me have done that I never thought I had to tell people not to do until I was proven wrong and now I go over it every time with a new person.)

Orientation day for future personal students
Celestia: "Alright well I'm real excited to have you here and I hope you're ready to learn from me my little pony. Before we begin there's just a few little ground rules I want to lay out. No you don't need to take notes these should be easy to remember.

"Firstly if you fail a lesson I will not kick you out of the castle, send you back to magical kindergarten, or otherwise punish you. Same if you ask for help. Or admit you don't know something. Or don't clean your room... although you really should do that last one.

"Second everything I say is not in some way a test. If you think I'm asking you to do something without coming right out and saying it just ask and I'll clarify. I'm an absolute monarch, I don't need plausible deniability. So there are not secret tasks. There are no secret tests. And no, before you think it any more than you are now, this is not itself a secret test.

"Third...
 
Rules of Celestia manipulating you:
1: She is order of magnitude older than you, that matters.
2: If you notice her manipulating you, you are wrong.
3: If you actually notice her manipulating you, or others, she wanted you to.
4: If you notice her manipulating you, you won't actually mind*.
5: Stop worrying about it.

* If you do mind, she is not manipulating you.

Celestia has had more time to git gud at getting her way, outside extremely rare exceptions, she is not going to fuck up manipulating someone.
What she is bad at is genuine closeness, so if something seems to go wrong, it is more likely that she is not trying to manipulate you, instead it's a genuine fuck up on her (or your) part.
 
Rules of Celestia manipulating you:
1: She is order of magnitude older than you, that matters.
2: If you notice her manipulating you, you are wrong.
3: If you actually notice her manipulating you, or others, she wanted you to.
4: If you notice her manipulating you, you won't actually mind*.
5: Stop worrying about it.

* If you do mind, she is not manipulating you.

Celestia has had more time to git gud at getting her way, outside extremely rare exceptions, she is not going to fuck up manipulating someone.
What she is bad at is genuine closeness, so if something seems to go wrong, it is more likely that she is not trying to manipulate you, instead it's a genuine fuck up on her (or your) part.

dddddefinitely don't agree. Celestia is riddled with failures on the manipulation front. She's just got plenty of time to unfuck anything that is indeed fucked. Failed to convince a politician to support a new law? wait till his bloodline dies out and try again.

What Celestia really shows that she sucks at is mortal-timescale things. She can anticipate a thousand year old prophesy, but just the daily, hourly trappings of ruling are enough to consume her, and trying to help a single pony is fraught with fuckups, mistakes, and blunders, and she usually has lifetimes of spare time to work on fixing mistakes, but ponies don't live more than one of those.

Just imagine whenever Celestia is trying to help someone, she's wearing rollerblades on ice, plowing through random strangers and flopping around like a fish. She'll get to the other end of the lake eventually, but boy oh boy is it not quick or graceful.

But then, to ponies, she looks perfectly competent, because from their perspective, she's just doing a really cool pose for several decades.
 
I do halfway wonder if Celestia's incompetence when it comes to manipulating individuals is at least halfway intentional.

How do you manipulate someone? It starts with empathy, trying to figure out what they are thinking.

The problem that Celestia has is she has had enough costly failures on this point that she just refuses to take this step and prefers to judge people and interact with them by their actions. It makes her much more of a blunt instrument, and still leads to mistakes still, but at least she isn't misjudging people based on an assumed idea of what they think or believe.

She might still be dramatically wrong about what they are like on the inside - but it's because they've been hiding their true self, not because she prejudged them. So she still gets things wrong - but it's the kind of mistake she finds easier to bear because it's more their fault than her own. It's still a mistake on her part, but one of inaction rather than action.

So yes, she probably had enough experience to come up with all kinds of theories as to why Sunset acted the way she did. But she refused to assume any of those theories were right and act upon them until Sunset confirmed them.

The board and rules for a game define it, but they have a very passive influence on the game.
 
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How often do we actually see Celestia fail to get what she wants, if we ignore her attempts at making ponies stop treating her like an infallible goddess?

The series kinda has to show Celestia as failing, because that is needed to make the main cast relevant.
But by and large, Equestria seems to be ticking along quite comfortably outside major disasters, and even there Celestia has managed to gather a fairly reliable response team (the main cast).

Sure, we are watching one of her biggest failures in the past millenia, so it kinda gives us a distorted view on her.
But, as she pointed out, she has had thousand years to make things work the way she wants, and shedoes not want everyone to just by mindless minions, so that requires some alowed opposition and assholery.
 
How often do we actually see Celestia fail to get what she wants, if we ignore her attempts at making ponies stop treating her like an infallible goddess?

The series kinda has to show Celestia as failing, because that is needed to make the main cast relevant.
But by and large, Equestria seems to be ticking along quite comfortably outside major disasters, and even there Celestia has managed to gather a fairly reliable response team (the main cast).

Sure, we are watching one of her biggest failures in the past millenia, so it kinda gives us a distorted view on her.
But, as she pointed out, she has had thousand years to make things work the way she wants, and shedoes not want everyone to just by mindless minions, so that requires some alowed opposition and assholery.
More like, Celestia is very, very competent at a lot of things, but close interpersonal relationships is her achilles heel. She fumbles literally every one we see on screen -- Luna, Sunset, Twilight, Cadance... Those are the ponies closest to her we see, and she screws the pooch with everyone.
I mean, there's a reason the elements of Harmony reject her now.

It's why, despite what Sunset says, right now, Cadance is the superior allicorn. Just look at this story: in a world where friendship is magic, Cadance has the greatest power of all -- emotional intelligence and empathy XP.
 
More like, Celestia is very, very competent at a lot of things, but close interpersonal relationships is her achilles heel. She fumbles literally every one we see on screen -- Luna, Sunset, Twilight, Cadance... Those are the ponies closest to her we see, and she screws the pooch with everyone.
I mean, there's a reason the elements of Harmony reject her now.

It's why, despite what Sunset says, right now, Cadance is the superior allicorn. Just look at this story: in a world where friendship is magic, Cadance has the greatest power of all -- emotional intelligence and empathy XP.
Who are the excact people she is not trying to manipulate.
Which is kinda my point.
If Celestia was trying to manipulate Sunset, instead of being mentor/friend/mom, she probably would have lot more success.
But interpersonal relationships are her weakness, and she kinda has very little opportunity to get better due to the whole "immortal ruler" thing.
 
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