SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What are you talking about? It's an interlude of our choice. It's inevitably metagaming. Hell, it's the QM basically saying "Here, have a free metagaming chapter on the house".
HomuHomu's Bizarre Adventure: The World's End [PMMM/JJBA/Nasuverse/Dead]
Look to the Left
Back from the Void
- Location
- OH CANADA!!!
Basically yes.
Also I think I'll go and discuss the nasu rules in private with LD.
Neo-Chan
Extremely hungover College student
- Location
- North Carolina
You poor soul, why would you subject your self to such torturer.
HymnOfRagnarok
Let's Rock
Ha-HA! Victory!
Right, hopefully this link for BL Useful Notes works better.
Now, find: 'Fake' Heroes
Even includes the link to the translated completed work, here. My bad, it's Herakles and Medusa, no Medea. The more you know~
Right, hopefully this link for BL Useful Notes works better.
Now, find: 'Fake' Heroes
Even includes the link to the translated completed work, here. My bad, it's Herakles and Medusa, no Medea. The more you know~
Look to the Left
Back from the Void
- Location
- OH CANADA!!!
I don't get it.
- Location
- Argentina
Jack the Ripper was noted to be very interigent. And serial killers are usualy white males above average interigence. Heck Jack created the whole stereotype.
- Location
- U.S.
CMIII - Birth of Heroic Spirits]
Ohh. I took what it said, along with some other notes attached to the wiki's references to mean she was real, but created as a pseudo-divine spirit who was then summoned as an irregular Heroic spirit. Basically a mass delusion that Gaia made real in the Age of the Gods.
Ohh. I took what it said, along with some other notes attached to the wiki's references to mean she was real, but created as a pseudo-divine spirit who was then summoned as an irregular Heroic spirit. Basically a mass delusion that Gaia made real in the Age of the Gods.
Neo-Chan
Extremely hungover College student
- Location
- North Carolina
Your actually going to try and make sense of the jumbled mess that is Nasu lore. That way lies madness my friend.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
we're probably going to make liberal use of "this is what makes sense to us, so this is how it's going to be for this quest"
Look to the Left
Back from the Void
- Location
- OH CANADA!!!
Going to sleep now. Goodnight.
HymnOfRagnarok
Let's Rock
That will certainly be easier than trying to stay up-to-date on the lore, and you are already playing things fast and loose.
Don't knock it till you try it!
Cause you can actually make sense of it. It just takes a looooot of work.
Neo-Chan
Extremely hungover College student
- Location
- North Carolina
Oh I did try, trust me I tried. Hell I even manged to make sense of most of it, then Fate Grand Order and Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya came out and I decided it wasn't worth the endless debates and effort after that.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Ψυχή
Beyond my wingbeats lie the fate of all worlds...
- Location
- Void between SB and SV
Alright, Nasu Time!
Heads up tho, I'm not sourcing stuff here—this is just straight from repeated osmosis and discussion on TM-General and all the Fate RPs here.
The triage of mysterious factors that create a general sense of scale in the level of Heroic Spirits. Age is often the big one—as evident by Gilgamesh being the first Hero and very powerful, though what happens to pre-Gil Heroes/others from his Epic often gets debated (I can discuss as well, but it's not immediately relevant to the recent debacle). But the fact of the matter is that Gil actually is really high in all of the 3 factors due to his myth taking place at the end of the Age of Gods/his tale triggering the rise of the Age of Man which puts a far heavier weight to 'mystery', and his fame from being 'the first (complete) myth' and so on and so forth. The problem overall is that we have no scale of 'which is more important/effective' whatsoever, so it's hard to say if you can have enough of one to compensate for others (ex. High Age but Zero Fame/Mystery, etc.)
Important to note that by Mystery I'm not referring to things like "who was Jack The Ripper" (mostly), but more of the inherent 'mystery' that thaumaturgy and magic need to work. To simplify, Mystery also generally is decreasing over time (as always, Nasu is rife with exceptions to nearly every rule).
Now with the "Big Three" laid out, one more major concept that's very important is that of the "Modern" Servant. In simplest terms, there's a cut-off date (specifically for Age, not Mystery) where a Servant's abilities become worthless. This cutoff is specifically ~1900, with (as I recall) the harshest time I've heard of being 1890. Putting aside the debate about which date is relevant (birth/death) for the moment, the fact of the matter is that Jack the Ripper's canonical murder took place right at the cusp of that time—1888—with other debatable ones up through '91 still not intruding upon the twentieth century. That and considering the actual large amount of fame that Jackie the 'Stripper' (versus Fate/strange fake's Jack the Ripper, which I won't delve into) actually garnered into the modern era and that her stats aren't completely insane in Apocrypha while still being arguably the greatest Murder (because let's be serious—in the days of Uruk up until modern times, a string of killings was more like a fight/battle/war and in all honesty was plain more accepted the further back you go, and conditions make a difference. Andrew Jackson wouldn't have 200 in Murder but he'd probably have 200 in Dueling—albeit gun-dueling versus sword-dueling, etc.), the murder stat was fine as it was.
As for Angra Manyu and Artoria? The fact of the matter on the former is that he never actually killed anyone in Nasuverse lore: Angra Manyu was a kid that was sacrificed, idealized as 'all the world's evils'. Really, his 'rank' in murder should be zero, maybe whatever an average person would have or slightly more because of 'all the world's evils', but that denomination doesn't do anything for his skills as Servant Avenger. Artoria on the other hand could be used to make a bonus case for Jack the Ripper considering what Britain stands for in Nasu: concentrated Age of Gods-power during Artoria's time (this is why Excalibur is so crazy good and she's a top-tier servant despite being moderately more recent).
Mmmm... Eh, that seems about right for now.
Heads up tho, I'm not sourcing stuff here—this is just straight from repeated osmosis and discussion on TM-General and all the Fate RPs here.
ON AGE, FAME, AND MYSTERY
The triage of mysterious factors that create a general sense of scale in the level of Heroic Spirits. Age is often the big one—as evident by Gilgamesh being the first Hero and very powerful, though what happens to pre-Gil Heroes/others from his Epic often gets debated (I can discuss as well, but it's not immediately relevant to the recent debacle). But the fact of the matter is that Gil actually is really high in all of the 3 factors due to his myth taking place at the end of the Age of Gods/his tale triggering the rise of the Age of Man which puts a far heavier weight to 'mystery', and his fame from being 'the first (complete) myth' and so on and so forth. The problem overall is that we have no scale of 'which is more important/effective' whatsoever, so it's hard to say if you can have enough of one to compensate for others (ex. High Age but Zero Fame/Mystery, etc.)
Important to note that by Mystery I'm not referring to things like "who was Jack The Ripper" (mostly), but more of the inherent 'mystery' that thaumaturgy and magic need to work. To simplify, Mystery also generally is decreasing over time (as always, Nasu is rife with exceptions to nearly every rule).
ON 'MODERN' SERVANTS, ANGRA MANYU, AND ARTORIA
Now with the "Big Three" laid out, one more major concept that's very important is that of the "Modern" Servant. In simplest terms, there's a cut-off date (specifically for Age, not Mystery) where a Servant's abilities become worthless. This cutoff is specifically ~1900, with (as I recall) the harshest time I've heard of being 1890. Putting aside the debate about which date is relevant (birth/death) for the moment, the fact of the matter is that Jack the Ripper's canonical murder took place right at the cusp of that time—1888—with other debatable ones up through '91 still not intruding upon the twentieth century. That and considering the actual large amount of fame that Jackie the 'Stripper' (versus Fate/strange fake's Jack the Ripper, which I won't delve into) actually garnered into the modern era and that her stats aren't completely insane in Apocrypha while still being arguably the greatest Murder (because let's be serious—in the days of Uruk up until modern times, a string of killings was more like a fight/battle/war and in all honesty was plain more accepted the further back you go, and conditions make a difference. Andrew Jackson wouldn't have 200 in Murder but he'd probably have 200 in Dueling—albeit gun-dueling versus sword-dueling, etc.), the murder stat was fine as it was.
As for Angra Manyu and Artoria? The fact of the matter on the former is that he never actually killed anyone in Nasuverse lore: Angra Manyu was a kid that was sacrificed, idealized as 'all the world's evils'. Really, his 'rank' in murder should be zero, maybe whatever an average person would have or slightly more because of 'all the world's evils', but that denomination doesn't do anything for his skills as Servant Avenger. Artoria on the other hand could be used to make a bonus case for Jack the Ripper considering what Britain stands for in Nasu: concentrated Age of Gods-power during Artoria's time (this is why Excalibur is so crazy good and she's a top-tier servant despite being moderately more recent).
Mmmm... Eh, that seems about right for now.
HymnOfRagnarok
Let's Rock
RARGH.
NO. WRONG. BLATANTLY SO. ON SEVERAL COUNTS AND ARRRRGH.
Oh no...people claiming to know Nasu-verse via osmosis but not looking at the source material, plus basing off of RPs? I don't think this is ending well....
*rubs eyes*
I am nigh on certain you've gotten Gilgamesh wrong given what I recall on the new material on him, but I do not have anymore time to tonight to binge on that.
Wrong. Blatantly so. Explicitly stated out in canon. RARGH THIS PISSES ME OFF.
Hollow Ataraxia. Avenger straight up says he is best in murdering humans. Well, second or third in his words. He can keep up in quality, but not in speed, with the dog and spider. This is canon.
And the dog is Primate Murder.
Useful Notes. Look at Murderer of Humans.
NO. Short version, Excalibur is a Last Phantasm. Quote:
[quote]-The pinnacle of holy swords. Excalibur was not forged by mankind, but crystallised within the Earth, using the wishes of mankind as the basis. It is one of the ultimate God-forged weapons, a Last Phantasm. Originally cared for by the Faeries of the Planet, it was passed into the hands of King Arthur through the Lady of the Lake.
[/quote]
And another reason Arturia is as powerful as she is, long story short, Merlin merging her with a dragon. Phantasmal Beast Dragon or Divine Dragon, we're still not sure on that.
And if memory serves it was one of Arturia's sealed weapons that's ended the Age of the Gods. Again, don't have time to hunt down the sources on that, though once I have time I think I will...
NO IT IS NOT. I don't even know where you got some of this stuff. Don't talk osmosis and knowledge from RPs, cite your sources before you claim to be an authority on the subject!
NO. WRONG. BLATANTLY SO. ON SEVERAL COUNTS AND ARRRRGH.
Oh no...people claiming to know Nasu-verse via osmosis but not looking at the source material, plus basing off of RPs? I don't think this is ending well....
*rubs eyes*
I am nigh on certain you've gotten Gilgamesh wrong given what I recall on the new material on him, but I do not have anymore time to tonight to binge on that.
Wrong. Blatantly so. Explicitly stated out in canon. RARGH THIS PISSES ME OFF.
Hollow Ataraxia. Avenger straight up says he is best in murdering humans. Well, second or third in his words. He can keep up in quality, but not in speed, with the dog and spider. This is canon.
And the dog is Primate Murder.
Useful Notes. Look at Murderer of Humans.
NO. Short version, Excalibur is a Last Phantasm. Quote:
[quote]-The pinnacle of holy swords. Excalibur was not forged by mankind, but crystallised within the Earth, using the wishes of mankind as the basis. It is one of the ultimate God-forged weapons, a Last Phantasm. Originally cared for by the Faeries of the Planet, it was passed into the hands of King Arthur through the Lady of the Lake.
[/quote]
And another reason Arturia is as powerful as she is, long story short, Merlin merging her with a dragon. Phantasmal Beast Dragon or Divine Dragon, we're still not sure on that.
And if memory serves it was one of Arturia's sealed weapons that's ended the Age of the Gods. Again, don't have time to hunt down the sources on that, though once I have time I think I will...
NO IT IS NOT. I don't even know where you got some of this stuff. Don't talk osmosis and knowledge from RPs, cite your sources before you claim to be an authority on the subject!
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Apply this to any nasu debate lest Mad Enhancemrnt take effect prematurely
Ψυχή
Beyond my wingbeats lie the fate of all worlds...
- Location
- Void between SB and SV
Would you rather I lied and said I was knowledgeable? Not like I haven't gone through some source material, but the whole point is that the relevant issues aren't something I can always directly draw out.
But sure, be an ass.
Okay, sure; belayed for later.
*sigh* This again?
Avenger isn't a reliable source of intel on himself, especially since he's saying that in his dream world where he has that specific advantage.
But his historical origins within Nasu (which are also canon and more reliable than 'word of mouth' from him) and why he actually sucks as a Servant during the 3rd Grail War is because he's just a guy that got sacrificed. It's not like you're making things up, but I'm not either in this case.
Ah, oops. Yeah, I forgot to write "part of why", so my bad on that.
I've seriously never heard this before but I've no reason to mistrust you on this; only would extend the Age of Gods' full-end for another five to six centuries or so from otherwise so... *shrug*
I mean... you're the one flipping out here about this and reading waaay too much into my last sentence (aka not wanting to ramble on, not "ah, my work is done, I did a great job") as much as my opening (yeah, I could have not mentioned the RPs because they're not being that relevant in my thoughts, but on the flip side HOLY SHIT you got pissed)...!
On an entirely separate note, you seriously deserve "No Fun Allowed" more than @The Out Of World cause your general salt levels are massively too high, putting aside other things.
(never claimed to be a Nasu authority, just talking and noting I wouldn't be citing atm)
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LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Calm down.
HymnOfRagnarok
Let's Rock
Oh it's certainly better that you said it, but any post that goes, "This is how the Nasuverse works" but doesn't have sources tends to be wrong.
If we discarded all narration discussing the Nasu-verses world-building on account of the biased narrated, we'd have so hilariously little to work with on world-building. Until proven otherwise, it should be considered canon.
He sucks as a Servant, yes. Certainly compared to other Servants, and he has the dubious distinction of being weaker than his own Master. He is not a fighter, nor an assassin, and that pretty much makes him dog food in a Grail War.
He can suck balls as a Servant but still be an apparently murderer of humans. The titles aren't inherently mutually exclusive.
Like I said, I'll dig that up. I distinctly recall this because of the same 'Seriously?' expression it provoked in me.
Oh I'm all up for having fun, but people spreading misinformation is one of the reasons shit gets so confusing in the lore. You ever hear about the 'elephants are special powerful magical creatures in the Nasuverse'?
Entirely made up as a joke. But it caught on, and then a bunch of people started believing it. That's just one example; it really doesn't need people spreading further misinformation.
It is a sore point with me. And, admittedly, it is late and this annoyed me enough I couldn't go to sleep.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
RE: Avenger: Angra Mainyu's an currently an amorphous blob of grumpiness and spite sitting inside the Grail waiting for some sorry scrub to make a wish. He can't kill shit until someone does that.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
So breaking away from the Nasuverse argument for a moment I have to ask does anyone else plan on essentially treating Jackie like an actual daughter with Madoka's help.
Ψυχή
Beyond my wingbeats lie the fate of all worlds...
- Location
- Void between SB and SV
Fair enough, I could have prefaced it better to be more clear.
I guess my key point is that he probably is telling the truth, but only within the illusion world. And as a result, since he won't actually be murdering people in reality that's why I don't see him as so-high-ranking in "murder". In general though, canon doesn't necessarily mean the same thing (to me) as truth in this context: it's most certainly canon that he said that and I have no intent to deny that, but at the same time I don't think it applies to a fair comparison to Apocrypha's 'Stripper' Jack because of the literal reality of the situation where Avenger says it.
Mhmm...
I have not heard that elephant thing, but I see your point about it and apologize for getting you worked up.
In general though, to be frank? I've been having trouble enjoying this quest because of all the arguments over the technical stuff relating to Fate. I get that stoping misinformation is important considering, but in general the more pleasurable mood of the early updates of HHBA has been moderately dead to me for awhile now. I still like what I see from @Look to the Left and @LostDeviljho but it's so much harder to enjoy now...
Didn't use to be such a big deal to me, but these days I end up reflexively tuning out a whole lot of argumentative stuff where people get pissed enough to All-Caps laugh/swear at others (on SV as a whole)...
Hmmm, murder bonding over bitches trying to kill us while we grow a jewelry collection?