Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

Firstly, if you have questions about Good Seeds and the like please read here. If that doesn't answer your question please ping me in thread, or on Discord.

If you write a new Good Seed, or write an omake, please update the spreadsheet if you have access.

If you do not have access, please ping a collaborator (Swordomatic, Alectai, Quest, TehChron, Insane-Not-Crazy, Humbaba, ReaderOfFate, Kaboomatic, no., BungieONI) letting them know what you want and they will update the spreadsheet here. To gain access, you will need a gmail account of some kind. Throwaway emails are fine (I'm using one for the spreadsheet), but to gain access it's as simple as sending me either your email via PM, via DM in Discord, or just in Discord's #spreadsheet-requests channel.

This is mandatory. If a Good Seed does not record their omake by pinging collabs (or just requesting access and editing things themselves - this is the preferred option), I won't give out awards. If a new Good Seed is not recorded here, they won't advance. By doing this it makes the whole thing manageable for me - it's gotten pretty unwieldy!

-----------------------

Omake Writer Instructions:

There are four fields you need to fill out.

Omake Link, which is just a link to your first omake for the turn. This makes it easier for me to read them as I do the update - without this it's tough to know off the bat which omake were written this turn, and to properly

Requested Bonus, which is your requested bonus for your omake. You can leave it up to me if you like. You can see more info in the Good Seed infopost here.

Cultivation Aims. For those following unorthodox paths - higher than 9th Heavenstage or later than 7th Dao Pillar paths. Please put in what you are aiming for before you break through. I have left it as 'default'. If you do not edit it, I'll go with that.

Turn Notes - Do you want to do something specific? Enter a Secret Realm? Help the Clan out in some way? If you have something specific you want to accomplish on this turn, put it in turn notes so I can adjust your Fate around it.

All other fields are for QM use to record character information to properly run the flow of the game.

 

[Mellowfellow]

Of course it wouldnt be automatically?

We'd have to invest wealth and actions and time in developing our territories so that our numbers of supportable Cultivators increase.


I genuinely disagree. No reason we cant pull the same trick they were trying.

That aside, our raid last turn dealt an extreme amount of damage to their passive income in their core territories. Depleting their treasury and removing both their new lands and 2/3 of their tributary states will unquestionably leave them as worse off than they were at the start of the quest simply by virtue of expended wealth, stolen wealth, as well as lost territory and lives.

So we dont really need to touch their core territories beyond what will happen at Yaos hands to accomplish our objectives, imo.

Click to shrink...

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have no qualms with the current plan to pick off their vassals & new territories, I just don't think it'll be enough of a difference to raise a 3rd Nascent ourselves.

I believe the majority of Jingshen's progress towards another Nascent comes from their core territory.
I believe any income from the former Cannibal lands is merely supplementary, so conquering it doesn't give us a guaranteed nascent slot by itself.

 

[Gore17]

If the Jingshen can afford to save up for a third Nascent by developing that territory, then why wouldnt we?

Click to shrink...

IIRC, they can't/it doesn't. Part of the reason it's taking them so long is that they can't afford a Third Nascent off their territories, so instead they're saving up a stockpile so that when that third Nascent is raised, they can actually function for a while rather then having their cultivation fail due to lack of Qi.

Basically, the plan seems to have been "build stockpile, raise third Nascent, blitz and gain control of the Scorpion Road and enough other territories so that we can afford a third indefinitely".

Edit: Yeah, found the occi quote on Discord:

There are roughly two things in play. The first is the immense drawdown of resources of a third Nascent Soul would overdraft the Jingshen heavily, so they need a big store to be able to ensure that Three Nascents works.

Click to shrink...

 

[Mellowfellow]

There we go, thanks for the citation Gore17.

If the Jingshen can't sustain their 3rd Nascent despite drawing from their entire territory and incredibly rich spirit mines (Shiny 4 equivalent), then I doubt we will suddenly be able to, just by conquering the remaining former Cannibal land (30-40%).
I don't see where we'll get enough income to make the difference.

 

[TehChron]

IIRC, they can't/it doesn't. Part of the reason it's taking them so long is that they can't afford a Third Nascent off their territories, so instead they're saving up a stockpile so that when that third Nascent is raised, they can actually function for a while rather then having their cultivation fail due to lack of Qi

Click to shrink...

...Yes?

How is that contradicting anything that I said?

There we go, thanks for the citation Gore17.

If the Jingshen can't sustain their 3rd Nascent despite drawing from their entire territory and incredibly rich spirit mines (Shiny 4 equivalent), then I doubt we will suddenly be able to, just by conquering the remaining former Cannibal land (30-40%).
I don't see where we'll get enough income to make the difference.

Click to shrink...

...Look at the map of the desert region, please.

Perhaps the usage of a visual aid will assist you in that seeing issue you're having

Edit: Look, in the plainest terms possible.

You're arguing that we would only be able to support an equivalent force of Nascents to the Jingshen Clan, despite controlling more than twice their actual territory. In this hypothetical endstate.

Not withstanding the tariffs we'd be leveling for caravans traveling the Scorpion Road.

Which brings us back to the last time the option of "All the Cannibals lands being under our control" was on the table. Which was described as a literal "2x increase" in the numbers of cultivators we could support, as compared to the 1.5x modifier we received by agreeing to the Stork Clans solution. Naturally, any existing difference that the Stork Clans introduce into this equation is made up for in their forms of tribute, the possibility of flipping Jingshens more rebellious tributaries into our grasp, and the income from controlling the Scorpion Road.

The idea that we would have less or even equal wealth to the Jingshen at that point is utterly ludicrous.

Setting aside that the 1.5 modifier was sufficient to afford an early nascent in addition to Manuel. It stands to reason that an additional 0.5 to that former modifier would enable the ability to support a second early nascent as well.

There's a reason why the Scorpion Road gamble was described as a potential avenue to having uncontested dominance in the Organ Meat Desert.

 

[Simon_Jester]

...I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say

The Jingshens expected income curve was planned to raise up a third Nascent soul since the start of the quest

By definition them getting more land and more income advanced their capability to do so. That's literally all we know, and that even without really developing our new lands we became able to afford a second Nascent soul.

If the Jingshen can afford to save up for a third Nascent by developing that territory, then why wouldnt we?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious

Click to shrink...

It sounds like the Jingshen plan was to spend centuries carefully hoarding resources to make a third Nascent Soul, one that their lands could not in the indefinite long term sustain.

But it wouldn't matter if they couldn't sustain the third Nascent Soul indefinitely, because they would then immediately use their Nascent advantage to bum-rush us and take OUR land. Because then all the Jingshen land plus all our land would enable indefinite support of three (or four!) Nascent Souls. With that flood of wealth, and with sole control of the Scorpion Road in the hands of a Righteous power that the Righteous alliance can't easily justify dogpiling if tariffs go up... Well, then they'd be able to easily mop up just about anything left in the desert, they might think.

Stretch goals may have included something like coercing the surviving Bronze Devils into vassalage as a servant clan of array engineers or something, after killing off our Nascent Souls and breaking the back of our legacy. Or just killing us all to avoid any risk that the Trials would identify the Jingshen Clan as being "aligned with the Bronze Devils," of course.

 

[TehChron]

Maybe the Jingshen plan was to spend centuries carefully hoarding resources to make a third Nascent Soul, one that their lands could not in the indefinite long term sustain.

Click to shrink...

I...I am not sure if you're trying to posit that I wasn't aware of that?

Are you serious?

 

[Shaper47]

Never deal your enemy a small blow.

If we only take some of the Jingshen land they'll whine to the "Righteous" Powers till they force us to give it back and probably pay them tribute too for the privilege.

 

[TehChron]

If we only take some of the Jingshen land they'll whine to the "Righteous" Powers till they force us to give it back and probably pay them tribute too for the privilege.

Click to shrink...

Under normal circumstances you might be right, but Jingshen already tried complaining to the Righteous Powers for protection against potential scenarios like this coming to pass.

They were rebuffed.

If we succeed in landing the blow swiftly, do what we can to ensure that the flow of spirit stones remains unimpeded, and leave a tolerable negotiated settlement for the Righteous Powers to force the Jingshen to accept as an alternative to extinction, then we can get them to stick to their word in the short term.

Which is to say, exactly as long as we need them to while we gear up for war against the Bees.

 

[Shaper47]

leave a tolerable negotiated settlement for the Righteous Powers to force the Jingshen to accept as an alternative to extinction, then we can get them to stick to their word in the short term.

Which is to say, exactly as long as we need them to while we gear up for war against the Bees.

Click to shrink...

Trusting the Jingshen Clan who are bad at fighting to fight with us instead of stabbing us in the back and making a deal of Sun to get rid of Manuel who they both really really hate.

I'm very sceptical about this working.

 

[TehChron]

Trusting the Jingshen Clan who are bad at fighting to fight with us instead of stabbing us in the back and making a deal of Sun to get rid of Manuel who they both really really hate.

Click to shrink...

Don't need them to fight.

Just need them to agree to keep to themselves whenever we come into conflict with Dixiang'er and his Colletidae Concubines. And I'm pretty sure that can be enforced by Oath-keeping treasures.

If the SPS get them to agree to those terms in addition to us keeping the southern territories we're going for, we genuinely don't need anything else from them. At that point they cease to be a problem for us.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I...I am not sure if you're trying to posit that I wasn't aware of that?

Are you serious?

Click to shrink...

You kind of acted like it wasn't.

I mean, you've been reacting with confusion and disbelief here and like other people Just Don't Get It, so there clearly had to be some fairly basic points of fact on which your perspective differs from others' perspective.

I know you know the most foundational fact "the Jingshen are trying to raise up a third Nascent Soul." But it wasn't at all clear that you knew the next fact after that, "and this would be unsustainable for them except that they're doing it as part of a plot to take over the desert and secure a resource base to make it sustainable."

 

[TehChron]

I mean, you've been reacting with confusion and disbelief here and like other people Just Don't Get It, so there clearly had to be some fairly basic points of fact on which your perspective differs from others' perspective.

Click to shrink...

...Yes.

That point of contention was that whether the ability to field a third nascent indefinitely was especially relevant.

I'm of the opinion that it isn't, because any actions taken on our end would have had to account for the possibility of a third such nascent soul. There's no way we'd leave such war potential on the ground if it was within our means, even if it was costly. Again: whether said third nascent would be kept on after such a fight that would require such an asset is largely irrelevant.

We aren't arguing those types of hypotheticals.

So naturally, those kinds of concerns don't make a difference to the matter. Neither for us in the future, or the Jingshen in the present.

I know you know the most foundational fact "the Jingshen are trying to raise up a third Nascent Soul." But it wasn't at all clear that you knew the next fact after that, "and this would be unsustainable for them except that they're doing it as part of a plot to take over the desert and secure a resource base to make it sustainable."

Click to shrink...

...

Right.

I'll keep that in mind when considering your ability to read into thought processes in the future, then.

 

[no.]

.

...Yes.

That point of contention was that whether the ability to field a third nascent indefinitely was especially relevant.

I'm of the opinion that it isn't, because any actions taken on our end would have had to account for the possibility of a third such nascent soul. There's no way we'd leave such war potential on the ground if it was within our means, even if it was costly. Again: whether said third nascent would be kept on after such a fight that would require such an asset is largely irrelevant.

We aren't arguing those types of hypotheticals.

So naturally, those kinds of concerns don't make a difference to the matter. Neither for us in the future, or the Jingshen in the present.

...

Right.

I'll keep that in mind when considering your ability to read into thought processes in the future, then.

Click to shrink...

Chron, it might be time to take a break for a bit. Turn 11 isn't even over yet, so maybe we should simmer down.

 

[TehChron]

.
Chron, it might be time to take a break for a bit. Turn 11 isn't even over yet, so maybe we should simmer down.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's fair.

I think I'll do that.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I think there's an important point that we should bear in mind. We often place ourselves in the mindset of a state, to whom Nascent Souls are powerful strategic assets. This view, when applied to the Golden Devils, has more truth to it than one might think, because of the solidarity and loyalty the Golden Devils have to one another.

But even among the Devils, and certainly when we think of Nascent Souls more broadly and generally, they are always, first and foremost, individuals.

Individuals with priorities and needs of their own. Individuals who have lived centuries and become immensely powerful before they even break out of Core Formation. Individuals who have made great sacrifices and undertaken great risks to ascend to Nascent Soul because the process is normally dangerous. Most people who try it die unless they've taken extensive preparations, and maybe even if they have, and the vast majority of Core Formation Elders never even try.

And finally, a Nascent Soul can nearly always be reasonably confident that if they want to fuck off and go do something else, very few beings on the continent can stop them, and even fewer would consider it worth the risks to try.

 

[Olivebirdy]

I'm going to just write while thinking, here. Try to get thoughts down. I'm not making a case for anything, so don't jump down my throat.

• We're not in danger of extinction from Jingshen anymore, we just need to make sure they don't pose a useful addition to any other enemy force, be it RP or Devil Bees.
• We only have a 3v2 for a couple more turns, afterwards it will become a 2v2 or a 2v3. We can survive a 2v3, but it's an uncomfortable position to be in. Better to change the facts on the ground while we have overwhelming force and the NDA war is still going on.
• Cutting off the Jingshen's southern territory is the largest blow we can deal them that isn't actual invasion. It's an option that will most likely keep RP off our backs. However, it's not as meaningful, damaging or profitable as an actual invasion.
• We currently have the power to take their mines. Mines that are equal to the wealth of any five sects in the plains. Righteous Path would need to traverse the entire desert to take them back, and our Attrition is quite good. All the while, DP would nip at their heels. They can't afford to send anyone over before we're well-entrenched. SPS's power is based on their combat strength, but also on the fact that they're the only source of Spirit Stones in the plains, which they use to buy other factions' help in their war against DP.
• So the question is, what can we get away with, and is it worth the danger of a coalition?

I think we can get away with taking their central mines. By cutting off Spirit Stones, we can very quickly make the wars up north much harder, the other powers know we can cut off supply and it would take them ages to make it across the entire desert with their forces harried by our glass spears the whole way. They're stuck, they're not going to want to try it while they still have two fires burning. And if Jingshen cuts off supply, that will make the fires up north burn even worse. They'll be more desperate to open up supply, but they'll be less capable of sending forces to secure it.

I think it's worth it. Our arrays make us good at defense, Jingshen is on the far side of the desert, across our territory the whole way. And with the wealth of the Spirit Stone mines, we'd be able to set up serious defenses. We'd be able to make better stuff than the Jingshen Spirit Stone cannons. We'd have the ability to raise another two Nascents.

On the other hand, it is an unnecessary risk. We don't have to actually do anything to them. Our survival is assured. We can just cut them off from their south, raise another Nascent who subsists entirely off of raiding Jingshen from the Bandit Kingdoms. No real possibility of RP retaliation unless Jingshen cuts off supply of stones to the west.

There's always the question of what Old Jingshen or Jiao will do if someone else attacks us. Killing or crippling them wouldn't be too hard with the power balance we have this turn. And we'd get to use their body parts for arrays. If we leave them here with enough income to subsist on, they will happily add two Nascents to any side that attacks us. If we allow them to leave, we're giving RP another two Nascents with one or two grudges against us. I assume Old Jingshen would fit in well with Gemstone Justice. SPS would probably host another negotiation, as they want continued supply of stones and another two Nascents and we do not want to be coalitioned.

What I'd like, shipper that I am, is Old Jingshen tossed over to the RP up north, while Jiao marries Manuel as a fig leaf. This isn't conquest, this is a dowry. A unification of the Jingshen and Golden Devil Clans, with the tacit understanding that the other option is destruction of Jingshen. Terms would be heavily weighted towards us.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Actually from the discord.

"Old Fish isn't evil, but twenty or thirty million ordinary mortals dead isn't as dangerous as it sounds and won't concern him overmuch in the long term. There won't be time to wipe out the entirety of the Chuan Clan, even 50% of their mortals is a big ask."

Completely wiping out the population of an area a significant fraction of the size of the earth is hard even when you aren't being opposed.

Click to shrink...

Hmm, how populous are the (non blood path) plains powers on average? we as a desert power started with about 60M capacity (plus vassals). Seeing how the plains are considered verdant and the territories pretty damn big, I would have thought a few hundred millions for smaller powers and up to billions for the most prosperous powers but I seem to be mistaken?

Also, my understanding of using the Flood Dragon Gang to attack Jingshen in order to avoid a coallition is that the Flood Dragons Gang would rule it in name with us administrating it for them. See quote by QM below about using the FDG as an excuse to attack the Jingshen, mainly bolded parts.

It's realistic perhaps as a diplomatic fig leaf. You're not going to get Yao Zhihao to rule a territory in person, but it's theoretically possible to get her to rule one in name as a favour. In practice this would mean Golden Devil administrators, civilians, etc, etc, etc all of whom were "guest elders" for the Flood Dragons. It wouldn't make a difference against a Righteous Path not in the middle of a desperate set of battles at all, but against one that really needs the Spirit Stones to flow and is facing a major threat? Maybe.

In a time of Righteous Strength the answer would be a major coalition boiling across the mountains and putting the Devils into the ground permanently.

In a time of weakness, they would probably find massive bribery plus a plausible reason to ignore the conquest sufficient.

Click to shrink...

If the FDG gets to hold the land in name, it seems presumptuous to think that we'd get all or even most of the ressources from the land. I'd expect us to be paid well for our services, but that the FDG would still get much of the ressources in order to make it worth their while.

In exchange, the FDG would be even more closely bound to us and we would weaken the Jingshen! But we wouldn't get a huge windfall enough to support another nascent soul, nascent soul level ressources going in large part to Lady Yao. Although I'd guess we'd at least get enough to support the "guest elders" sent to support the FDG and perhaps a bit more.

On the other hand, Lady Yao getting more Nascent Soul level ressources from a small territory + her regular mercenary/bandit work might mean she could eventually have enough to step into Mid-Nascent...

TLDR : I don't think we can get our cake and eat it too by using the FDG to avoid slapping the SPS in the face and get most ressources from conquered Jingshen territories. If we want everything, we got to attack in our own name and pretty much insure a coallition in the short to medium term.

 

[moon-llama]

Hmm, how populous are the (non blood path) plains powers on average? we as a desert power started with about 60M capacity (plus vassals). Seeing how the plains are considered verdant and the territories pretty damn big, I would have thought a few hundred millions for smaller powers and up to billions for the most prosperous powers but I seem to be mistaken?

Click to shrink...

we are an exception in the desert because we are actually operating at a loss to care for our mortal population
creating arrays that make life more sustainable for them in our territories.

 

[Olivebirdy]

TLDR : I don't think we can get our cake and eat it too by using the FDG to avoid slapping the SPS in the face and get most ressources from conquered Jingshen territories. If we want everything, we got to attack in our own name and pretty much insure a coallition in the short to medium term.

Click to shrink...

It would be a risk, but we'd definitely not get coalitioned in the short term, they've got to put out the NDA and Bee fires first before going into Desert Vietnam. In the medium turn... maybe. Depends on how diplomacy goes, depends on how seamless we can make it. See how well Manuel manufactures a casus belli. We might be forced to make a deal with Old Altar. Come to think of it, we should have a talk with him anyway. It's in our best interest that the NDA knows when we're going to make a distraction in the southeast.

Medium-to-long-term, we should scramble to reach our full capacity of Nascents and Core and build up heavy defenses. Make it require a large coalition to go after us and be incredibly frustrating the whole time it does.

 

[Sparsebeard]

we are an exception in the desert because we are actually operating at a loss to care for our mortal population
creating arrays that make life more sustainable for them in our territories.

Click to shrink...

Sure, but unless I'm mistaken, those are small islands of prosperity in an otherwise inhospitable land. As evidenced by the fact that our HUGE territories can "only" support about a 100M mortals.

Plains powers on the other hand rule over fertile lands that while not as big as ours, are still enormous by Earth's standards. Thus my question of how many mortals can those huge fertile powers support.

Keep in mind the virtuous flipper region is a whooping 50,000 KM across. That means that even the smallest factions would be amongst the top 10 biggest countries on earth, while the averagely sized plains powers are many times as big as Russia. And while Russia is mostly tundra, wasteland or undevelopped land, I'd assume the plains are called Verdant for a reason...

 

[Taut_Templar]

As far as I understand, at the moment we have a considerable but temporary advantage over the Jingshen, due to Yao being on hand for a few decades, they not yet getting their third Nascent online, and the rest of the region being distracted by the massive war with the Blood Pact. Although there's a lot at risk here, I don't think we're going to get another opportunity to potentially ensure total hegemony over the Organ Meat Desert in the conceivable future. Although I'd like to learn more information about the actual tactical situation on the ground before making a definitive decision, I'm of the opinion that if we can present everyone else with a fait accompli, we should seize the moment and deal with the fallout.

 

[Garlak]

You know, Diaxiang taking all 3 of the Devil Bees' Nascent Souls out to raid the Verdant South is making me really wish we could hit the Devil Bees while all their Nascents are out.

In fact, if we have good enough intelligence on what is going on in the Devil Bees and the Verdant South... maybe we could do that?

i.e. The next time Diaxiang goes to raid a Sect or Clan, such as perhaps the Yu Clan who Chron thinks he'll hit and totally wipe out because they're a Clan focused on countering the Devil Bees... What if we take Kleisthenes and damage the Devil Bees as much as possible while their 3 Nascents are out?

Jingshen can't attack us for 3 reasons:
1. Yao is still home and holding down the fort. Wait, no; we use Kleisthenes for this. She can activate the Nascent Wills.
2. We have the Late Nascent Will.
3. If they hit us while we are attacking the Great Boogeyman Of The Verdant South and getting revenge for all the massacres the Devil Bees just unleashed on the Verdant South, it would be a perfect Cassus Belli for us to hit back at Jingshen. Jingshen would have to be insane to give us such a Cassus Belli.

Jingshen isn't going to attack us as soon as we turn away for a moment; they were going to attack us when they have 3 Nascent Souls. Now that we have 2 Nascents, they aren't going to attack us at all.

EDIT:

Wait, change of plans. We don't attack with Manuel and Kleisthenes. We attack with Manuel and Yao.

Kleisthenes remains back home; because she's a Golden Devil Nascent Soul, she should be able to activate the Nascent Wills.

----------------------

Alternative possibility: we fake committing an attack on the Devil Bees.

In order to draw out an attack by the Jingshen.

They'll think "This is our only chance to hit the Golden Devils!" and attack.

And run right into Kleisthenes and the Late Nascent Wills.

And then Manuel and Yao come back ASAP.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I think part of the problem is that the distances here are vast, Nascent Souls move fast, and information does not move as fast as Nascent Souls unless Nascent Souls are personally carrying it. Unless the setting contains means of communication I don't know about, by the time we realize the Devil Bees' Nascent Souls are busy raiding in the south, they may already be back.

And Kleisthenes is new enough in Early Nascent Soul that if she gets dogpiled two-on-one or three-on-one, they may very well be able to literally tear her apart before she can pull off some kind of lifesaving treasure escape.

 

[Sparsebeard]

It would be a risk, but we'd definitely not get coalitioned in the short term, they've got to put out the NDA and Bee fires first before going into Desert Vietnam. In the medium turn... maybe. Depends on how diplomacy goes, depends on how seamless we can make it. See how well Manuel manufactures a casus belli. We might be forced to make a deal with Old Altar. Come to think of it, we should have a talk with him anyway. It's in our best interest that the NDA knows when we're going to make a distraction in the southeast.

Medium-to-long-term, we should scramble to reach our full capacity of Nascents and Core and build up heavy defenses. Make it require a large coalition to go after us and be incredibly frustrating the whole time it does.

Click to shrink...

If I get your point correctly, you're saying that we could attack Jingshen without giving the SPS a pretext to let it go and expect them to just take that huge slap in the face this would be.

I disagree. The fact that they were the ones to guarantee our post-war deal AND that they were given the Oasis by the Jingshen makes it so that if they let this insult go, they'd lose all their credibility. They would HAVE to attack us in the medium term.

As for us getting a few more Early Nascent Soul and fortifying us from such an onslaught... I doubt it. Unless we get Manuel in the Late Nascent Soul, have some Good Seed step into Nascent Soul or get some MacGuffin, I'd rather not take those odds.

Especialy, when we have a great Casus Beli in the form of "landing" the FDG. The benefits of owning the land directly are just not worth it... as for dealing with the Altar Lord, no thank you.

You know, Diaxiang taking all 3 of the Devil Bees' Nascent Souls out to raid the Verdant South is making me really wish we could hit the Devil Bees while all their Nascents are out.

In fact, if we have good enough intelligence on what is going on in the Devil Bees and the Verdant South... maybe we could do that?

i.e. The next time Diaxiang goes to raid a Sect or Clan, such as perhaps the Yu Clan who Chron thinks he'll hit and totally wipe out because they're a Clan focused on countering the Devil Bees... What if we take Kleisthenes and damage the Devil Bees as much as possible while their 3 Nascents are out?

Jingshen can't attack us for 3 reasons:
1. Yao is still home and holding down the fort.
2. We have the Late Nascent Will.
3. If they hit us while we are attacking the Great Boogeyman Of The Verdant South and getting revenge for all the massacres the Devil Bees just unleashed on the Verdant South, it would be a perfect Cassus Belli for us to hit back at Jingshen. Jingshen would have to be insane to give us such a Cassus Belli.

Jingshen isn't going to attack us as soon as we turn away for a moment; they were going to attack us when they have 3 Nascent Souls. Now that we have 2 Nascents, they aren't going to attack us at all.

Click to shrink...

I know I'd much rather focus the Devil Bees too.

Jingshen might raid us and try to inflict heavy damage (as we did to him), but probably not enough to give us a casus beli indeed.

And if we send out word that we intend to attack the Bees, perhaps the Righteous Alliance might even send us a few Nascent Souls to support our Offensive. For exemple, those that Old Cannibal kicked away and that he believes are gonna join the NDA front might decide to support us and get revenge NOW.

Once again, we could use Lady Yao in order to make this more palatable by having the offensive be under her command (in name) and having her be the one asking for help in striking against the Bees. After all, it could be argued that their attack on the Saber Sect caused her to lose her underlings...

 

[Garlak]

I think part of the problem is that the distances here are vast, Nascent Souls move fast, and information does not move as fast as Nascent Souls unless Nascent Souls are personally carrying it. Unless the setting contains means of communication I don't know about, by the time we realize the Devil Bees' Nascent Souls are busy raiding in the south, they may already be back.

And Kleisthenes is new enough in Early Nascent Soul that if she gets dogpiled two-on-one or three-on-one, they may very well be able to literally tear her apart before she can pull off some kind of lifesaving treasure escape.

Click to shrink...

Then how the hell did the Divine Saber Palace pull it off, then? He did the exact same thing against the Devil Bees.

Partly probably because he predicted they were going to hit him. But how did he know when they were hitting him, so he knew when to start coming back? Probably some Treasure or other.

So, we do the same thing here. We predict when the Jingshen are going to hit us. We do so by presenting what seems like an opening; we pretend to raid the Devil Bees. Instead, we either partly raid the Devil Bees, or we hide out in our territory.

We hit the Devil Bees with Manuel and Yao, rather than with Kleisthenes.

Nobody knows we have Kleisthenes as our Nascent Soul right now. Jingshen won't know it. Jingshen will either smell a rat and not go for it -- in which case, hey, free raid on the Devil Bees! free money and damage to the Devil Bees! Maybe we'd even be able to mess with Old Cannibal's control and influence over one or both of his students? -- or he will go for it...

At which point he runs into Kleisthenes and the Late Nascent Wills.

And then Yao and Manuel come right back. And we have a perfect Cassus Belli against Jingshen.