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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

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    • The Elder and the Lord, Part 2
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    • Manuel hated this.

    Oh, he was aware that he was weaker than the Altar Lord. Considerably weaker.

    But an art that allowed the other man to possess a body and bring Nascent level strength along with it was absurd. He had no counter to it, no possible way to win such a fight. Even if he won, the devastation would be tremendous, and it would be in the lands he protected.

    So.

    He waited, hands folded in his lap as he cultivated in the courtyard that Altar Lord had shown up in before.

    It was nearly six months later that a drunken beggar stumbled into the courtyard, asking to speak to the Grand Elder.

    Manuel inclined his head.

    The beggar burped, and then gagged, slime bursting from his mouth, wrapping itself around his body, scouring away skin and flesh alike, and settling upon the skeleton of the benighted beggar.

    Manuel felt a vague sense of nausea, pushed down by long experience.

    The amorphous slime suddenly took shape, and from it Altar Lord grinned widely.

    "Ah, old man. Honestly, you'd do so poorly in a Blood Path Sect. Just zero tolerance for that sort of thing. Anyway!"

    Altar Lord clapped his hands.

    "Today, I thought we'd enjoy a fine set of dates. Nothing special, just-"

    "Foresight Yearning Dates?"

    Altar Lord pouted. It was, Manuel noted, the sort of expression one expected to see on a young girl or boy, and despite the man's incredibly youthful appearance it still looked childish.

    "You figured it out?"

    Manuel smiled.

    "Forgive an old man, but if I couldn't figure out what your next gift was to be, I doubt I'd be worthy of my title. Dates to resolve the lingering yearning that would otherwise slow one's path of cultivation? They're the traditional accompaniment to Dao-Yearning Tea, but I doubted even you would possess both. I see I was wrong."

    Altar Lord handed over a pair of dates, and gnawed on two himself, spitting the pits on the ground.

    Manuel bit into them, feeling the yearning for the Dao fade away - the benefits of the tea had been gleaned already, but the eternal sense of yearning could in fact damage one's prospects. Usually the tea was a net plus, but the dates themselves made them the sort of item that Nascent Souls would bargain over for decades, not something to be merely given away.

    He cracked his shoulders and neck, working out the kinks in a skeleton that was clearly not his.

    "So. I thought I'd come here and tell you why I'm here. Well, why I think I have a chance of having the notoriously rigid Golden Devils joining my beautiful Noble Devil Alliance."

    Manuel raised an eyebrow.

    "You believe you have something sufficient to lure me across to your side. For all you've spoken of... philosophy, your Sect slaughters mortals like cattle, torturing and butchering for no greater reason than individual power. Strength Purity and the Righteous Path have long been our enemies, but the heirs to the Sea-Conquering Army do not bow their heads to monsters for mere benefits."

    Altar Lord sighed.

    "Of course you're being intransigent. You don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. Still, you have no idea how pleasant it is to speak with someone who gives reasoning and cites heritage in their arguments. Did you know the Strength Purity Sect don't even listen to us anymore before they attack? They just attack!"

    He huffed angrily.

    "I'm a little off-topic, I'll admit. Still, let me make my offer. Please don't answer just yet, I have the fullness of my offer yet to come. The reasoning, the forces beyond and behind it that join us in ways you don't yet realise."

    Manuel simply remained silent.

    Altar Lord looked over, waiting a few more seconds for Manuel to reply.

    "...nothing? That's fine. You might be the most important cultivator in the entire Third Sea right now old man, though you don't realise it. Once I explain matters to you... well, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me go through my offer first."

    Altar Lord spread his hands out, splaying them like a merchant displaying goods.

    "I will come to your lands personally. Once here, I'll bring along a rather spectacular treasure that allows me to duplicate myself, and the two of me will butcher the Jingshen Clan's decrepit old Nascent Soul. Honestly, the vileness of the man... he exemplifies everything I hate. The sort of person who exists simply to accumulate, to grow and grow ceaselessly and pointlessly. I try to choke those seeds off in my Sect - any Core Formation elder without a proper Dao is taken care of in short enough order. Oh! I'd like the girl as well, but you can have her corpse - I know you Golden Devils can get a lot of use out of them. Once that's done, you can move into the Jingshen lands and seize everything. In return, all I ask is that you cut off all the Spirit Stones to the Great Battlefield for... oh, one hundred years. Barely even the blink of an eye. You become masters of the desert, lords of all you survey. In time you'd be as powerful as my Sect!"

    Manuel started to speak, and Altar Lord's aura flared.

    Oppressive. The last time Manuel had felt oppressed was by Bhrigu, but by a cultivator from his own Sea? Not since Alexios died. It was a frightening feeling, knowing that there was a gulf in power between you.

    "Don't speak. Don't answer. I know your answer right now will be no, and I don't care for it. The third time will pay for all, and I strongly suspect you'll be more interested in my offer after you hear the reason I've come all this way."

    Altar Lord came to the end of his speech, and spurs of bone were jutting out from his ribs, tearing through clothes, small growths of bone through the skin on his head and the skin on his arms.

    "I'll be leaving now. You know the stakes, and soon you'll know the reason. Think on it carefully."

    With that, his flesh turned to flakes of ash and blew away as a light breeze picked up, the skeleton seated on the ground in front of Manuel.

    Manuel frowned.

    He hated trying to discern shape of things he didn't understand, where no additional knowledge was available. Should he agree and lie, next time? Disagree outright? He wasn't sure, and...

    Well. He'd wait for the third time. He doubted Altar Lord would've spent so much to come speak to him without some overarching reason, some trump card that would make him think Manuel would take his offer, so... best to hear it.
     
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    • occipitallobe said:
    Altar Lord sighed.

    "Of course you're being intransigent. You don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. Still, you have no idea how pleasant it is to speak with someone who gives reasoning and cites heritage in their arguments. Did you know the Strength Purity Sect don't even listen to us anymore before they attack? They just attack!"

    He huffed angrily.
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    ...I dunno. Have you come up with any new arguments in, like, the past eon?

    Maybe they've just gotten bored. :p
     
    If I was going to guess, either he has enough bluffing skill to make a nascent soul surprised, or Altar Lord found or has been able to team up with some Spirit Severing shenanigans.

    Or the Hundred-Year Trials somehow are involved in this.
     
    Aklyon said:
    If I was going to guess, either he has enough bluffing skill to make a nascent soul surprised, or Altar Lord found or has been able to team up with some Spirit Severing shenanigans.

    Or the Hundred-Year Trials somehow are involved in this.
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    I doubt the trial is involved.
    Doesn't make much sense
     
    ... Maybe he wants the Jingshen Clan eliminated for some reason? In fact, perhaps for the exact reasons he wants Manuel to stop: Spirit Stones (and healing water). After all, the Golden Devil Clan aren't the only source of Spirit Stones to the Plains. The Jingshen Clan have Spirit Stone Mines too. And they're the ones with the actual healing spring.

    So maybe he sees a way to cut off Spirit Stone supply to the Plains entirely. And simply wants to leave Manuel and the Golden Devils holding the bag for their death, and forever taint the reputation of the Golden Devils amongst the Righteous Powers, as a cherry on top?

    Actually, maybe it's not the Spirit Stones thing, but the possibility of a Righteous Powers-Golden Devils teamup that he fears.

    In fact, maybe he fears the Golden Devils coming to dominate the whole of the desert and then throwing in with the Righteous Powers of the west. Even if it takes 100, 200 or 300 years for it to happen... that would still suck for him. He'd have to fight in the Plains and fight stuff off from the Desert too.


    Or maybe it's something from the Golden Devils past heritage. Maybe the Sea-Conquering Army had history and left things behind that is relevant for Spirit-Severing maneuvering. And the possibility of the Golden Devils coming back into play, after being in decline for so damn long, is disruptive to the Altar Lord-Wei Princess loggerheads. Because if they ever climbed back up far enough, maybe they'd be able to reactive some things or reclaim some treasures or... something. Who knows.
     
    occipitallobe said:
    I will come to your lands personally. Once here, I'll bring along a rather spectacular treasure that allows me to duplicate myself, and the two of me will butcher the Jingshen Clan's decrepit old Nascent Soul.
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    That is quite the treasure. Seems like a real waste to use just to kill the Jingshen Clan. With that he could kill enemies much closer to him. There has to be something huge at stake.
     
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    Honestly seeming like a case of 'betray these guys and allow me to consolidate my gains before I inevitably betray you'.

    The tea and snacks is an interesting wrinkle but I'd just as easily wager that he just actually is bored not getting to talk to anybody and decided to throw some treasures away. If it works Manuel will just be a fatted calf anyway.
     
    g
    TimEd said:
    At least Manuel is getting tasty cultivation snacks?
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    My concern is that Altar Lord may issue some bloodcurdling threats at the next meeting, ones that leave us regretting things.

    fictionfan said:
    That is quite the treasure. Seems like a real waste to use just to kill the Jingshen Clan. With that he could kill enemies much closer to him. There has to be something huge at stake.
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    The problem is that the powers closer to him have more than one or two Nascent Souls, and have a Great Circle Nascent Soul who can match his power.

    If he uses this treasure near the front lines, the Wei Princess (?) shows up and fights one of his clones to a standstill, which leaves him fighting another Nascent Soul one-on-one. That is a fight he can win on power, but not necessarily quickly because his opponent will use lifesaving treasures. Or the weaker opponent may be able to pull some kind of Nascent Soul Up-Punching Boxing Glove out of their back pocket and surprise him.

    (The Up-Punching Boxing Glove is my metonymical name for treasures that let you defeat enemies in the same realm now. Right up there with the lifesaving Thousand League Jetpack of Holy Shit...)
     
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    So... we don't need to figure out what he gets out of it. That's not the important question. The important question is... why does he think we'll say yes? He's given us gifts and threats, but those have all been in the service of getting us to shut up and listen. Moreover, he's investing in this heavily... and more heavily than he needs to. If we assume that he is being honest (and for the moment I will assume that thing) then every time he uses this self-projection power, he spends personal resources sufficient to have a meaningful impact on the battlefield... and he's choosing to do this three times, with ridiculously valuable gifts, and waste time bantering, rather than do it once and actually spit out what it is that he wants.

    So A lot of this is conspicuous consumption. He's signaling that he has these resources, and can afford to throw them around. He's signaling that he's throwing them around unnecessarily, just to make a point. I think... I think he expects that for some reason we might not take him seriously. Spending resources like this is in part just to make clear that yes, he is being quite serious, while also driving home that he has the kind of resources that might be necessary to follow through, if that were in doubt.

    Still... what kind of offer does he have that he thinks we'll actually accept? He knows that we'll say no based on what he's told us thus far. What else has he got?

    Well, he has his ideology... which he hasn't fully expressed. He said "You might be the most important cultivator in the entire Third Sea right now old man, though you don't realise it. Once I explain matters to you..."

    I'm thinking... the only way that makes sense is if it ties into Manuel's unique ability to oppose the will of Heaven. I'm thinking that this guy wants to somehow attack Heaven directly... and he wants our help to do it. That is the sort of thing that might bear the sort of results that would at least be tempting. I mean, I wouldn't go for it myself, but I could at least see it.
     
    fictionfan said:
    That is quite the treasure. Seems like a real waste to use just to kill the Jingshen Clan. With that he could kill enemies much closer to him. There has to be something huge at stake.
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    Simon_Jester said:
    The problem is that the powers closer to him have more than one or two Nascent Souls, and have a Great Circle Nascent Soul who can match his power.

    If he uses this treasure near the front lines, the Wei Princess (?) shows up and fights one of his clones to a standstill, which leaves him fighting another Nascent Soul one-on-one. That is a fight he can win on power, but not necessarily quickly because his opponent will use lifesaving treasures. Or the weaker opponent may be able to pull some kind of Nascent Soul Up-Punching Boxing Glove out of their back pocket and surprise him.
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    But if he uses that Treasure to go annihilate the Jingshen Clan, the Wei Princess can instead show up to the Plains battlefield fully knowing that she is unopposed and can rampage amongst the Early-Mid Nascent Souls, as her opposite number isn't there and is instead kicking ass somewhere else.
     
    The thing is our hesitance to commit to this act is stupidly high

    Altar Lord is gonna offer us one hell of a boon for it as well as some greater "context" we're currently unaware of.

    Worth considering is that Altar Lord believes in some kind of rationale to justify all his actions so if he continues to come at us honestly...

    We're gonna need to be open to the possibility it's something wild enough to make it a choice after all.
     
    Question. Can we go to the Righteous Powers and do the equivalent of asking them 'What've you got for me instead?'

    That is -- if Altar Lord has a really compelling reason for his stuff, then... maybe we should hear out the other side of that debate too, no?

    Of course problem is, that just admitting that we're being diplomacized by the Altar Lord is going to be a bit of an issue. But... But still. I hate the idea of having to commit to a choice after only having the Demonic Power's perspective on things!
     
    Garlak said:
    But if he uses that Treasure to go annihilate the Jingshen Clan, the Wei Princess can instead show up to the Plains battlefield fully knowing that she is unopposed and can rampage amongst the Early-Mid Nascent Souls, as her opposite number isn't there and is instead kicking ass somewhere else.
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    Yes basically every action a Nascent Soul does has to be considered in terms of opportunity cost. Because basically anything that a Nascent Soul does that only a Nascent Soul can do is detectable from far away. Most of the time the best thing for a Nascent Soul to do is nothing. Because as long as you don't commit to any action everyone else has to worry about you reaction. But once you act you lose all potential actions.

    I suspect these stalemates can last for centuries. Then suddenly when one moves everyone else moves.
     
    Garlak said:
    Question. Can we go to the Righteous Powers and do the equivalent of asking them 'What've you got for me instead?'

    That is -- if Altar Lord has a really compelling reason for his stuff, then... maybe we should hear out the other side of that debate too, no?

    Of course problem is, that just admitting that we're being diplomacized by the Altar Lord is going to be a bit of an issue. But... But still. I hate the idea of having to commit to a choice after only having the Demonic Power's perspective on things!
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    Well I doubt the Altar Lord is going to wait around while we shop for better offers
     
    wrecksalot said:
    Well I doubt the Altar Lord is going to wait around while we shop for better offers
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    Nascent Souls have Important Clan Meetings once every 20 years. One of the new Core Formation Elders lampshaded that she had her meetings like once a year when she was running her thing, but upon becoming a council-member, she was a bit wigged out by the fact that Important Meetings were once every 20 years.

    So on the one hand -- yeah, the Altar Lord may go: "Okay, I've given you my reasons. Now, I'm going to demand an answer from you before I leave." (Or some more diplomatic and more-skillfully-phrased way to put it.)

    On the other hand, Altar Lord and Manuel are Nascent Souls. They do stuff slowly. (Except for when stuff happens really really fast and sudden.) So they might wait a whole turn for an answer.
     
    I have a guess as to what the Big Bad Blood Guy might offer: a treasure that lets Manuel fight at Spirit Severing rank.
    Either a weapon that raises effective rank, or a cultivation boost for real rank.
    That might be how it's powerful enough to seriously get Manuel's interest, while also explaining why BBBG doesn't use it in his own sect - great way to risk a civil war and a megacoalition against you at the same time.
     
    Still too vague to know for sure what the right choice is. The man's got something absolutely crazy going on and this will very much be worth thinking about. The way he claims to hate those who sit around accumulating power without a reason, he doesn't seem like he just wants to use the Demonic Altar to dominate everything. His sect is a means to an end, to accomplish an ideological agenda. That is extremely worth hearing out.
     
    The funny thing is.

    For all that whatever SPS did spooked the Demonic Path badly enough that they consolidated into a single alliance. They don't want Manuel to know or find out.

    And for all that this guy is talking? He still hasn't even hinted as to what that is either. Which is one of the biggest signs that he's probably trying to bamboozle us.

    I wonder if the SPS whipped out some old SCA superweapon, and they're worried if Manuel finds out about it, he'd be able to take control of it?
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    My concern is that Altar Lord may issue some bloodcurdling threats at the next meeting, ones that leave us regretting things.
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    I mean, we don't really have a choice in the matter. The power disparity is just that large.

    The only reason we are being given anything resembling a choice is due to how we can deal damage before we get taken down.
     
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