Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Alectai]

Of course if we can see that then Old Gold saw it coming years ago. Which means using Rina as bait in a trap. So @Alectai how do you feel about Rina having a major role in killing the Cannibal?

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Major is an exaggeration, even Theoretically Optimal Maximum Heresy Rina Callista at the peak of Core Formation is a speedbump in a Nascentbowl, even if her vs anyone less than that looks like a Nascent Soul vs anyone else.

 

[Garlak]

Oooh. Ugly thought. Jingshen clan knows about Rina Callista, and about Old Gold's deeply disproportionate willingness to respond to attacks on her. The Golden Devils have been starting to actually recover, after generations of slow decline, and they're not going to want to see us just eat up all of the old Blood Cannibal territory, even if it does mean that the attacks on them directly are reduced. I could imagine them... quietly dropping a bit of information on that topic, in return for a few valuable resources. If Old Cannibal must force a fight with Old Gold, I could see that being the way he does it.

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Alternative possibility: the Jingshen see the writing on the wall, and try to scoop up as much Blood Cannibal territory as humanly possible, in order to deny the maximum amount of territory to the Golden Devil Clan as possible.

Or they offer a temporary alliance to Manuel; "We'll fight with you to destroy the Blood Cannibal Sect/We'll fight with you to kill Old Cannibal himself, and in return you give us all the Blood Cannibal's territory."

Would that be a worthwhile trade for Manuel to take? The assurance of victory against the Blood Cannibals, or against Old Cannibal, in exchange for losing some/most/all of the Blood Cannibal territory?

Would it be more tempting to go for the "security" of a "sure win"? Would it be "greedy" to try to instead go for more Cannibal territory instead? ... Or would it, instead, be shortsighted to give away so much territory to the Jingshen -- giving yourself security now, in exchange for problems centuries down the line? Would the "greedy" choice instead be to take the juicy offer of aid against the Cannibals or Old Cannibal?

Not sure.

But such are the choices that Manuel might have to weigh and make. And the possibilities that Jingshen might see in the coming battle, and decide to take.

... If, that is, Old Cannibal himself isn't the one that gets an offer from the Jingshen Clan...

 

[TehChron]

The assurance of victory against the Blood Cannibals, or against Old Cannibal, in exchange for losing some/most/all of the Blood Cannibal territory?

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That's a good joke.

They're already done. Everything after this is dealing with the Cannibals death throws, and they can do a lot of damage on the way out...

But thatll be it.

 

[Simon_Jester]

They're done, unless an outside faction helps them because they don't want to deal with the consequences of the Golden Devils decisively winning this cage match.

 

[fictionfan]

They're done, unless an outside faction helps them because they don't want to deal with the consequences of the Golden Devils decisively winning this cage match.

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Even decisively wining still has us busy taking over our new territory for a long time. It is currently basically empty. I don't expect there to really be any mortals left.

 

[Sirrocco]

...and then e have to deal with the chances that they'll just try to take the land after we're weakened by said cage match.

Though, yeah, I'd absolutely expect them to go for some sort of land grab once the Cannibals start imploding, almost regardless of what else happens.

 

[TehChron]

They're done, unless an outside faction helps them because they don't want to deal with the consequences of the Golden Devils decisively winning this cage match.

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Do you intend to back off before.the job is finished?

In such a scenario

 

[kitsune9]

They're done, unless an outside faction helps them because they don't want to deal with the consequences of the Golden Devils decisively winning this cage match.

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Who would that outside faction be, The Seven Divine Saber Palace who hates us but needs to pretend they are righteous which the sort of intervention needed to save the Blood Cannibals would be a slap on that would be very hard to redeem themselves from. The Jingshen Clan who were just told that Manuel is willing to suicide if it means destroying the person who damaged his clan and flinched away from the confrontation. The Devil Bees who are currently in a civil war right now and can't spare any attention. I'm not saying it's perfect but there's not much room for someone trying to force a stalemate here.

 

[TehChron]

Like, the leverage to force a peace and prop up the Cannibals at this point isnt just stopping the Golden Devils from crushing them underfoot

We've essentially Spartan-kicked the Cannibals off the Death Spiral they were coasting down straight into the empty well of straight up oblivion with this action.

Propping up Old Cannibal and keeping him alive saves him alone at the cost of however many mortals it takes to keep him fed and relevant as a means to keep us in check.

The only only way to save the rest of the Blood Cannibals is a forced population transplant to give them easy access to enough mortals to sustain themselves and that isnt feasible for any of the powers who are in a position to do so. The Jiangshen wont because thatll piss off the Righteous Powers despite them not caring about their mortal populations. The Devil Bees wont because theyd have to launch another invasion into Golden Devil Clan territory whilst in the midst of a Civil War in order to open and hold a corridor for them to march from Devil Bee held.lands to Blood Cannibal held lands.

Right after their last attempt at an invasion was pretty thoroughly rebuffed while the Devil Bees were experiencing a high point to their power. Which led to a rather immediate end of such.

Theres any number of methods by which Old Cannibal can survive.

But not the Battle.Blood Cannibal Sect.

They were already dead monsters walking before this war even started, and no amount of onetime infusions of wealth or sudden trade of treasures or what have you is going to be enough to alter the fundamental basis of just how we've already killed them. With this gamble broken, everything else is clean up

A messy, dangerous clean up.

The only way the Blood Cannibals survive is if we are paid enough to let the Cannibals achieve sustainability and pull themselves out of the pit weve already shoved them into. That's why I ask if folks would be willing to stop in the face of sufficient bribes.

Because that's the only way the Cannibals stand a chance of surviving this war as anything less than scattered wandering cultivators. The very fate we ourselves risk should the Golden Devil Clan be crushed in turn.

Only. Y'know.

Waaaayyyy more evil.

 

[Sirrocco]

They were already dead monsters walking before this war even started, and no amount of onetime infusions of wealth or sudden trade of treasures or what have you is going to be enough to alter the fundamental basis of just how we've already killed them. With this gamble broken, everything else is clean up

A messy, dangerous clean up.

The only way the Blood Cannibals survive is if we are paid enough to let the Cannibals achieve sustainability and pull themselves out of the pit weve already shoved them into. That's why I ask if folks would be willing to stop in the face of sufficient bribes.

Because that's the only way the Cannibals stand a chance of surviving this war as anything less than scattered wandering cultivators. The very fate we ourselves risk should the Golden Devil Clan be crushed in turn.

Only. Y'know.

Waaaayyyy more evil.

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Not true.

If Old Cannibal manages to take out Old Gold, basically nothing else matters. At that point, Old Cannibal can use raw power to dominate his way into our lands, and grab the population there. Eating us is the only path to victory/survival they have left. It's a thin path to victory, and getting thinner, but it's still there.

 

[fictionfan]

Basically either Old Cannibal tries to force a fight with Old Gold within the next say 3 months* or his sect is dead. If he doesn't that means he is just buying time for his exit strategy. I would not be surprised if he eats his entire sect before leaving.

Edit: Or I guess he might eat his entire sect to get a quick last minute power boost before attacking Old Gold.

*Estimated time it takes for news to get around the Blood Cannibals and for them all to start destroying the place on their way out.

 

[TehChron]

Not true.

If Old Cannibal manages to take out Old Gold, basically nothing else matters. At that point, Old Cannibal can use raw power to dominate his way into our lands, and grab the population there. Eating us is the only path to victory/survival they have left. It's a thin path to victory, and getting thinner, but it's still there.

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I suppose that's generally true, but with this Old Cannibals lost the initiative.

And Manuel has many traps left in Golden Devil territory to call upon.

I just dont see how anything Old Cannibal can bring to the table can outrank the Spirit Severing Sliver-Powered Light Dao in terms of sheer threat level against Manuel specifically. Spirit Severing is straight up the tippy-top of what this Region has going for it in terms of power levels.

But yeah I'll acknowledge that's a plausible method of turning things around, we just need to be vigilant for it, I suppose.

Well, I'll push for "Obstructing Old Cannibals own actions" for Manuel's focus next turn anyway as things stand. That ought to be sufficient to tie things down I hope, especially depending on what that looted blood red gem is.

 

[fictionfan]

Either as a last minute power boost or as a exit strategy I expect OC to eat his whole sect like right now. I expect he was doing exactly that well we were busy slaughtering the rest of his army. He would want to act before any of them have a chance to hear about it and start running.

After that OC goes to the Demon Bee sect to add another faction to their civil war.

I had forgotten about the Demon Bees civil war. OC doesn't have to go to them hat in hand. He can go there and make a good shot at taking over. Plenty of them would be willing to follow him.

Really if anything OC has become more dangerous. First he eat his sect then he eats a faction of the Demon Bees well taking over another. Would not be surprised if that was enough to bump him up a level of cultivation.

 

[TehChron]

Old Cannibal doesnt have the ability to easily consume enough of his own subordinates to push him that high

Too many are dead, and what's left is going to be incredibly diffuse after this gambit failing miserably

He'd have to damn the Blood Cannibals to being stuck between a hammer and anvil, forcing his Disciples to choose between death at his hands or ours

And all that would really do is buy him time to flee. Consumption for Upper Nascent Soul is extremely expensive, and by that point Old Cannibal essentially leaves his lands to us while he flees to greener pastures.

I'm not saying it wont happen for sure, since him pulling a self destruct on the Dawn Fortress out of spite is scarily possible. I just dont see him succeeding.given all the defenses we have in place is all.

 

[fictionfan]

That is basically what I am saying just the greener pastures is the demon Bee sect still in the middle of civil war. He goes, joins a side about instantly ending said civil war and eat the losers.

Also it is not really "buying time to flee" he could do that right now with no prep. It's buying time to loot everything he can before fleeing. Unfortunately for his sect one of main things he is going to be looting is them.

 

[TehChron]

Also it is not really "buying time to flee" he could do that right now with no prep

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Not after he nearly died after getting his own trap turned against him, let alone the stuff Manuel set up himself this past century

Fleeing through our territory doesnt do much to help him if he risks getting Home Alone'd while making the trip and having to burn through his LSTs just to survive

 

[Katana1515]

I'm still waiting to see how the Sabre Palace tries to fuck with us at our moment of victory. They have shown a willingness to cross the Demonic/Righteous divide before if it means we suffer for it and Old Cannibal is probably desperate enough to take whatever superweapon they might offer him.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we have to deal with Jingshen in some way next turn. While I wouldn't want to support any kind of 'partition in return for support' deal, I don't see how we stop them if they decide to simply march across the border and start annexing some of the land thats closer to them than it is to us. Sure we could fight them for it, but that's likely to cause all kinds of political blowback.

 

[Garlak]

Yeah, that was one of my worries there too.

Alternative possibility: the Jingshen see the writing on the wall, and try to scoop up as much Blood Cannibal territory as humanly possible, in order to deny the maximum amount of territory to the Golden Devil Clan as possible.

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The Jingshen just move in, claim as much The-Sect-Formerly-Known-As-The-Blood-Cannibal-Sect territory as possible, turn to us and go 'And what are you gonna do about it, huh? Fight another war for it?'

To which Manuel may go either 'Fuck you, pay me' or 'To a limited extent... yes!' or something. Who knows.

EDIT: Maybe that'll be when/where the Seven Sabers Palace will be willing to move. When the Jingshen Clan takes over Cannibal Territory and dares the Golden Devils to do anything about it; maybe the Sabers will send some folks to back them up for that.

 

[fictionfan]

OC is an old monster that has likely been preparing is exit strategy for the entire existence of his sect. I would be sort of surprised if he doesn't have a planed route for getting away. Now it is possible Manuel has somehow discovered it and been prepared to turn it against him for the last century, but OG has no way to know that and if he acts like Manuel is perfectly prepared for anything he might do then he can't do anything.

 

[TehChron]

also wouldn't be surprised if we have to deal with Jingshen in some way next turn. While I wouldn't want to support any kind of 'partition in return for support' deal, I don't see how we stop them if they decide to simply march across the border and start annexing some of the land thats closer to them than it is to us. Sure we could fight them for it, but that's likely to cause all kinds of political blowback.

Click to shrink...

They cant

They made that border all but uninhabitable save at the Oasis 5 turns ago, and that's not gonna see military buildup without us getting a front row seat to it happening.

Moreover, the Jingshens plans to achieve domination arent gonna be via territory grabbing or even force of arms with higher numbers.

It's simply and straightforwardly going to be about getting more Nascent Souls then we can feasibly stop, and Manuel just finished showing that he could very casually kill Lady Jiao should they ever come into a direct fight.

The only way the Jingshen can reasonably interfere during this turn (setting aside next turn) is if they commit a Nascent Soul to it, and that's just straight up not doable after Old Cannibal got repelled, because the only one who would be able to do so is old Jingshen himself.

And Old Jingshen is the stodgy old slow paced, risk averse dude that's set up this policy in the first place.

If anything, the Jingshen are going to try and smuggle stuff in to make up for their losses the past few turns while we're distracted, rather than straight up interfere with us if we manage to project strength like we are now.

 

[fictionfan]

I'm still waiting to see how the Sabre Palace tries to fuck with us at our moment of victory.

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They might not even hear about it in time. Right now they are busy with the demonic alter sect. We have missed many opportunities in the past because we were busy with other things. They are also busy.

 

[occipitallobe]

Honestly if I were in Old Cannibal's shoes, the moment Manuel said "At Fu Tong, Diaxiang," I'd have whipped out an "OH SHIT RUN" lifesaving treasure and OH SHIT RAN.

Then again, in Old Cannibal's shoes, I wouldn't put it past Manuel to be bluffing, in which case I've just burned an "OH SHIT RUN" lifesaving treasure for nothing, and he gets to slaughter my giant army freely while leaving a handful of survivors to tell the tale of how I ran away and left them to die.

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This is the unfortunate problem of facing another Nascent Soul. Most battles below Nascent Soul in the Third Sea are just battles - you win because you're stronger, faster, better-equipped, etc. Sometimes you have a trap on your side, but that's less common.

For Nascent Souls, every battle resembles a single hand in a massive thousand-year game of poker. Do you call the bluff or not call the bluff? If you fold incorrectly, you lose badly. Old Cannibal figured if he folded he was screwed anyway. When you're losing, sometimes you take bad, large bets because they give you a chance of winning where a series of small, favorable bets wouldn't.

I wonder how much wealth that blood army was carrying that our army gets to loot?

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A surprisingly small amount. Blood Path can't cultivate with Spirit Stones, Beast Cores, and they tend to be far, far younger than other cultivators - meaning they both need less wealth and have less time to accumulate it.

 

[Garlak]

OC is an old monster that has likely been preparing is exit strategy for the entire existence of his sect. I would be sort of surprised if he doesn't have a planed route for getting away. Now it is possible Manuel has somehow discovered it and been prepared to turn it against him for the last century, but OG has no way to know that and if he acts like Manuel is perfectly prepared for anything he might do then he can't do anything.

Click to shrink...

They cant

They made that border all but uninhabitable save at the Oasis 5 turns ago, and that's not gonna see military buildup without us getting a front row seat to it happening.

Moreover, the Jingshens plans to achieve domination arent gonna be via territory grabbing or even force of arms with higher numbers.

Click to shrink...

Hmmmm...

And Old Jingshen is the stodgy old slow paced, risk averse dude that's set up this policy in the first place.

If anything, the Jingshen are going to try and smuggle stuff in to make up for their losses the past few turns while we're distracted, rather than straight up interfere with us if we manage to project strength like we are now.

Click to shrink...

But, question -- are the Golden Devil Clan's "plans to achieve domination" including things like "Take over the Cannibal territory"? ((Whether the plan adds "... and make it productive land" or "... and turn it into a bordermarch to guard against anybody coming in and hitting the mainland core areas" or "... and militarize the heck out of it so we have a new border." Or even just: "... and try to mine and excavate and spelunk the shit out of it, in order to weaken our Heavenly Curse.")) And if so, would the Jingshen Clan decide to interfere just to deny the Golden Devils the ability to become more wealthy via the expansion of territory?

... Actually... Huh.

I guess there is a reason for the Golden Devil Clan to expand and take territory, isn't there.

Heaven's Impoverishment (Weakening) - If you should seize a new land it will find itself impoverished as fate itself conspires against your wealth. Each time the Clan seizes new lands or forces another power to pay tribute the curse must expend itself and is thereby weakened.

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Heaven's Impoverishment.

The more land we seize, the more that Curse is expended in order to keep us from gaining wealth and treasure from it.

And if we don't ever take lands, or force others to pay tribute, then the Curse will never weaken and we'll never be able to benefit from taking land or demanding tribute or demanding payment; and if we decide to never do that then, well, that's the Curse shrugging its shoulders and calling its job a job well done, as it prevented the Golden Devil Clan from expansion or settling or getting tribute or etc.

 

[occipitallobe]

Three years.

Zhang Wenling had been stuck in this fort for three years!

The Seafort was not the most important entry into the Xin Kingdom, but it was the one she guarded. Oh, she knew she wasn't really in charge, but it was her fort!

She looked across the water. Only ten Cannibals that she could see.

Ten was enough, though. Hulking men with pustules of hardened blood attached to their backs, traipsing merrily across her lands, murdering her peasants.

Oh, the Golden Devils had 'sent help'. A few hundred to stiffen the defenses, but the line of forts had been seen as secondary. After all, they were unlikely to fall, and even if they did, the Towers served as a fallback line. Ultimately, she knew her people just didn't matter that much.

Occasionally the Devils would sally out, but Centurion Evangelicus kept telling her about how it was important to retain a 'force-in-being', prattling on about doctrine and strategy as more and more Cannibals flooded into the Xin Kingdom. She suspected they were just told to hold the forts, and damn the kingdom.

Gods, but they were fast. Strong, too. She was a Water Sorcerer of the Third Tier, capable of summoning water-spirits and beasts in forms powerful enough to slay her enemies, creating armour of ice and water, and using her element to full advantage in so many cases. Against her lessers she could even arouse the power of the water in blood, turning it against the owner of said blood. Still, it didn't matter. Not when those from the Golden Devils could simply ignore her attacks, charging over with ten times the strength and twice the speed. The power of the elements were worthy, she knew, but she was unworthy of them.

The Seafort was a gorgeous place, built from stone and wood, with summoned ice blocking holes that had been blown in the walls several times in the course of the war. Along the walls were carved figures of dragons and turtles, qilin and firebirds alike. Engravings and carvings surrounded it, and even the courtyards were paved with fine-cut marble, polished to a sheen. Five years of war had tarnished it, but could not detract from the beauty fully.

Her efforts kept it whole. Would keep it whole for centuries to come, even. The Xin Kingdom wasn't strong, but it would survive, and one day...

She let her mind wander.

One day, she'd be head of the Water Tower, and she'd bring elementalism back to the glory it deserved!

Over the horizon, a figure flickered in the distance. She could barely see it.

A bird?

Perhaps a cultivator with a flying item?

It grew larger as it approached. Yes, that was definitely the figure of a man.

It carried a spear, and while the man seemed unassuming, the spear was like something out of a storybook. It sucked in light around it, the very reverse of an ominous glow. Simply looking at it for a moment or two made her feel despair, and she shuddered.

How was the man flying? She had no notion of how she could accomplish it with sorcery, and she had never heard anything but outlandish tales of cultivators flying.

She stared up at the sky, and-

The world was rent in two, space tearing and sound screeching as the spear wavered for but a moment. Had he struck with it? She hadn't even been able to follow the attack! It was nearly instanteous.

A massive crack in the wall of the Seafort, and a moment later the sound became unbearable, the sound of screaming and screeching, as though someone were being tortured. Babbling came from around her, and streams of black acid pooled in the courtyard, eating through marble, bubbling into the ground. Hundreds of years of work undone in mere instants.

She saw another man rise into the air, and for a desperate moment thought that they were safe.

Then she saw in struggle. Strong, cowardly Evangelicus. He clawed at the air, as though straining against some invisible hand.

The man in the sky looked at him briefly, and motioned.

Evangelicus burst. There was no better way to describe it, blood and bone streaming down from the sky.

The man looked down at her, and she froze. She couldn't even think. She felt like a rabbit, waiting for the hawk to descend, unable to move as the fear crept up through her legs and arms. The paralyzing fear of death fused with a sort of manic calm, the certainty of death meaning there was no need to worry.

Then he was gone.

She was alive.

She breathed, looking around. That had taken less than a minute. How could they even hope to win the war when the enemy had cultivators like that?

The walls were rent, the acid pools growing, of all things, black creatures rising from the pools, burbling and moaning as they lurched towards the corpses of those slain, hungry from their birthing.

Wenling took one more breath.

She would never call Evangelicus a coward again, as a disc of water appeared under her, flinging her over the walls to safety. Two tentacles of water from her waterskin grasped her and let her down gently outside the fort, and she began running.

To hell with the war! The Golden Devils were welcome to their enemies, and she... she was leaving. Surely there'd be room for her somewhere else.

One of the hulking men from the Cannibal siege approached, leering. He leapt at her - he was so fast. He was a blur of motion, and she was barely able to do anything in time - there was certainly no chance to dodge.

Still, Wenling hadn't lived as long as she had by being incompetent. With a flick of her finger, rotating blades of water spun up around her. He leapt, grasping at her, and as he did found himself sliced, muscles severed and bone hacked at. He fell down, and Wenling kept running. Killing and dying? The hells with that! She was retreating as far as she could from this madness. If that meant leaving the Xin Kingdom, so be it. She'd stop by the Water Tower and try and convince a few acolytes to leave with her, try and organise a full evacuation if she could.

She wasn't going to sacrifice herself, but she wasn't leaving anyone to that monster, not if she didn't have to.

 

[Mochinator]

Oh Nice, the Water Bender vassals! Hmm, eventually helping them fix their cultivation system so that it can reach Core would be good. Grants us some extra firepower that won't be affected by the Trials.

If i remember right, they have a cultivation issue + cannot cultivate more then 1 element? Wonder if strengthening a vassal could count as a Aid The Clan action?