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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • If this choice had come at the beginning of the turn it might have been been a question. But we've just spent 13 wealth fortifying ourselves for exactly this situation. Unless I have a very good reason to believe we will auto-lose* I'm not up for throwing that away.


    *AKA why this would be a sunk cost fallacy.
     
    I actually think going to war with the Jiangshan together is actually a good idea, if we make treaties beforehand on the distribution of the spoils and a minimum amount of contribution to the war effort from both sides, I trust Manuel to be smart enough to not get into a situation that will make backstabbing appealing enough for old cannibal to act on it
     
    Why don't we ask him if he wants to double team the Jingshen? He clearly knows what they're planning, and he thinks we've been critically weakened. If we can convince him that we've got some trick up our sleeves to make retaking the territory unpalatable, than it stands that he'd aim for a softer target.
     
    I'm leaning towards offering a wealth transfer or letting the Cannibals depopulate one or two cities (but no land tranfer) in exchange for another multi-decade automagically enforced truce.

    Realistically, the lands are worthless to the Cannibals. They just need the wealth from them. Whereas we need time (and to not strengthen our curse by losing more lands).
     
    We're all about valuing the mortals more than other cultivators. Losing that reputation will likely carry a price. Hell, he wants the land, give him the damn land. Doesn't mean he gets anyone living there. Evacuate them.
     
    Hmm, people have convinced me on not surrendering the territories. So I'd posit a suggestion. People already suggested going to war with him together against the Jingshen clan, but like they said, going to war alongside Blood Path cultivators could have some poor consequences, and could open us up to Cannibal backstabbing us. So eh, what if we gave him the offer, then...backstabbed him first? Not literally mind you. But we offer to go to war with him together against the Jingshen in say, another turn or so, to let the both of us prepare, then we make some subtle moves, recover more over the interim, then, when the appointed time of attack comes...we tell him to take a hike and blow a raspberry at him from across our fortified border. Yeah sure, we'd probably go to war at that point, but it'd give us more time to recover, and if we play the deception well enough, we could cause him to misposition his forces in preparation, which'd buy us more time while he relocated his forces to attack us. Even if he decides to make the same play as us, and backstab us at the appointed time, it could still give us free recovery time, and the opportunity to counter-ambush him.
     
    TheDuke said:
    Hmm, people have convinced me on not surrendering the territories. So I'd posit a suggestion. People already suggested going to war with him together against the Jingshen clan, but like they said, going to war alongside Blood Path cultivators could have some poor consequences, and could open us up to Cannibal backstabbing us. So eh, what if we gave him the offer, then...backstabbed him first? Not literally mind you. But we offer to go to war with him together against the Jingshen in say, another turn or so, to let the both of us prepare, then we make some subtle moves, recover more over the interim, then, when the appointed time of attack comes...we tell him to take a hike and blow a raspberry at him from across our fortified border. Yeah sure, we'd probably go to war at that point, but it'd give us more time to recover, and if we play the deception well enough, we could cause him to misposition his forces in preparation, which'd buy us more time while he relocated his forces to attack us. Even if he decides to make the same play as us, and backstab us at the appointed time, it could still give us free recovery time, and the opportunity to counter-ambush him.
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    Our first deal would literally kill whichever signatory violated its terms. Considering the mutual enmity between our organizations, a refusal to have a similar clause would render the entire agreement worthless and would lead to immediate war.

    We should assume that a straightforward backstab (as opposed to one where one party technically fulfills the terms) is impossible.
     
    War against the Devil-Bees. They're in civil war right now and ripe for the pounce. Most of the taken territory should go to the Battle Blood Cannibals.
     
    Sol Zagato said:
    War against the Devil-Bees. They're in civil war right now and ripe for the pounce. Most of the taken territory should go to the Battle Blood Cannibals.
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    That makes no sense and y'all aren't answering the actually relevant question:

    Old Cannibal is trying to force himself out of a Death Spiral, so if we want to actually negotiate something with him any and all such things need to revolve around a long term method of saving his own ass.

    [X] Offering Him The Farm
    -[X] You're not going to offer him the new territories, but you're not fool enough to not give Old Cannibal at least a lifeline before driving him into the corner. The fundamental issue with Blood Path is the need for mortal territories, and the results of Child Corpse Gulpers death appear to have crippled the ability of the Blood Cannibals territories to sustain enough mortals to keep the Battle Blood Cannibals from eventually fading away. Address that. A Waycastle is more than capable of supporting hundreds of thousands of mortals with enough resources bent towards the task, it is simply a matter of powering and maintaining the Array. Offer Old Cannibal the opportunity to create in the heart of his own territory a verdant paradise capable of single handedly sustaining even his own voracious appetite for blood, and in exchange there will be no need for war in the short term. The existence of such a territory in the hands of himself will, of course, also serve as a focus for his own subordinates attention as they jockey for influence or the opportunity to take such bounty for themselves. It will be expensive, certainly, but far less costly then the inevitable death that awaits from breaking themselves upon you.
    --[X] Upon Success: One Century of Peace. That should ideally be how long it takes before further maintenance is required at the very least.
    --[X] Failure State: War it is, then

    Edit: In the absence of any major objections imma make it a proper vote then
     
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    BungieONI said:
    And he'd also use it as a chance to backstab us. Which isn't a deal breaker, but does significantly increase the risk to Manuel since Jingshen has two Nascents and having Old Cannibal turn on Manuel during a heated combat could make it a three on one which would likely kill him.
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    The Child Corpse Gulper Incident and the existing cease-fire seem to indicate that working alongside the old monster isn't impossible. Also it seems like making mystically Binding Promises is standard in this sort of deal?

    Not ruling out a double cross entirely of course, but I wouldn't let that put me off on its own.

    The diplomatic blowback might be severe though. I really don't have a good idea how the central plains powers would respond to us teaming up on Jingshen. Would they see it as a distant border skirmish or a mortal offence?
     
    uri said:
    Wouldn't work, the problem isn't that the cannibals lands can't support a higher level of mortals it's that too many of them died and now they don't have enough breeding population to offset the consumption of his cultivators , he needs more mortals not a place to put them.
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    The point of a place like a Waystation is that it creates the conditions necessary to massively boost the breeding population of mortals to serve that purpose.

    It turns his core territories from being utterly inhospitable, to being mostly inhospitable with a core of verdant land that would serve as a fallback place for the loyalists/core of the Blood Cannibals to survive on even under the current circumstances. The long term prospect of having the Crags and Molds back is having them dotted with a bunch of subsidence level villages and maybe one or two large cities that would get used up by a Core Formation Blood Cannibal all at once.

    A Waystation-style territory in his core territories where all the strength of the Blood Cannibals is kept would easily worth more than having the Molds and Crags back under his control, with better long term prospects besides since it helps him idiot wrangle his own subordinates as well.

    The issue is maintaining it...And that can be negotiated further. Or even tacked on.

    But the premise is itself more than workable.
     
    uri said:
    they dont share a border.
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    Ok, darn. Thought they did.
    TehChron said:
    That makes no sense and y'all aren't answering the actually relevant question:

    Old Cannibal is trying to force himself out of a Death Spiral, so if we want to actually negotiate something with him any and all such things need to revolve around a long term method of saving his own ass.

    [X] Offering Him The Farm
    -[X] You're not going to offer him the new territories, but you're not fool enough to not give Old Cannibal at least a lifeline before driving him into the corner. The fundamental issue with Blood Path is the need for mortal territories, and the results of Child Corpse Gulpers death appear to have crippled the ability of the Blood Cannibals territories to sustain enough mortals to keep the Battle Blood Cannibals from eventually fading away. Address that. A Waycastle is more than capable of supporting hundreds of thousands of mortals with enough resources bent towards the task, it is simply a matter of powering and maintaining the Array. Offer Old Cannibal the opportunity to create in the heart of his own territory a verdant paradise capable of single handedly sustaining even his own voracious appetite for blood, and in exchange there will be no need for war in the short term. The existence of such a territory in the hands of himself will, of course, also serve as a focus for his own subordinates attention as they jockey for influence or the opportunity to take such bounty for themselves. It will be expensive, certainly, but far less costly then the inevitable death that awaits from breaking themselves upon you.
    --[X] Failure State: War it is, then

    Edit: In the absence of any major objections imma make it a proper vote then
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    Need to add actual peace terms. Like we're at peace as long as xx?
     
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    TehChron said:
    That makes no sense and y'all aren't answering the actually relevant question:

    Old Cannibal is trying to force himself out of a Death Spiral, so if we want to actually negotiate something with him any and all such things need to revolve around a long term method of saving his own ass.

    [X] Offering Him The Farm
    -[X] You're not going to offer him the new territories, but you're not fool enough to not give Old Cannibal at least a lifeline before driving him into the corner. The fundamental issue with Blood Path is the need for mortal territories, and the results of Child Corpse Gulpers death appear to have crippled the ability of the Blood Cannibals territories to sustain enough mortals to keep the Battle Blood Cannibals from eventually fading away. Address that. A Waycastle is more than capable of supporting hundreds of thousands of mortals with enough resources bent towards the task, it is simply a matter of powering and maintaining the Array. Offer Old Cannibal the opportunity to create in the heart of his own territory a verdant paradise capable of single handedly sustaining even his own voracious appetite for blood, and in exchange there will be no need for war in the short term. The existence of such a territory in the hands of himself will, of course, also serve as a focus for his own subordinates attention as they jockey for influence or the opportunity to take such bounty for themselves. It will be expensive, certainly, but far less costly then the inevitable death that awaits from breaking themselves upon you.
    --[X] Upon Success: One Century of Peace. That should ideally be how long it takes before further maintenance is required at the very least.
    --[X] Failure State: War it is, then

    Edit: In the absence of any major objections imma make it a proper vote then
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    Absolutely not. Even beyond being absolutely morally repugnant to the point that large portions of the clan (including me) might outright rebel it just means that he'll be back in another 100 years except far stronger. Our entire aesthetic is "Let's not be huge bastards like everyone else in this terrible setting" not this.

    There may, may be arguments for occasions where we must pull back because we could not save all our territories, but that is a very, very different beast from buying off a monster like old cannibal by making him a personal feeding palace. One which he can also sneak around at his leisure to discover all the clan secrets going into it's construction, unless you want to permanently strand Manuel in the centre of blood cannibal territory to mind him. Which is an even worse idea.

    I would also point out that with the Curse of Karma removed, while we now see heavenly reward for "Just" actions that we have long been denied, we are still absolutely subject the heavenly punishment and retribution for our bad actions. Setting up a permanent feeding ground to actively abet a monster like old cannibal in torturing and murdering hundreds of thousands or millions of mortals seems like exactly the sort of thing heaven can pounce on gleefully.

    On a much, much lesser point and more practical point, we also have zero money to create this horrific murder temple.

    Edit:
    [X] War to the Knife

    I was holding off but nope. No way.
     
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    [X] Negotiate
    -[X] Propose going to war with the Jingshen clan on the following terms: no peace will be signed with the Jingshen without the consent of the other party, the land (and any spoils acquired through a peace treaty with Jingshen) that would be taken in the war will be divided at a 55%/45% ratio in favor of the devils with them getting first pick, the body of any nascent soul killed by both parties will belong to old cannibal, any no more than 40% of the mortals in regions taken can be killed or consumed, both parties will contribute at least thirty percent of their numbers and wealth to the war effort, the parties will coordinate the defense and offence of their nascent souls, no cultivator below nascent soul will cross the border of both parties and enter land occupied by a party without permission from that party, the war will last no more than 60 years, there will be peace between both parties throughout the war and fo one and a half centurys after the war has ended.
    -[X] failure: war

    Okay, this is what I got so far, I would like it if somebody could look this over to see if I missed anything.
     
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    Humbaba said:
    Absolutely not. Even beyond being absolutely morally repugnant to the point that large portions of the clan (including me) might outright rebel it just means that he'll be back in another 100 years except far stronger. Our entire aesthetic is "Let's not be huge bastards like everyone else in this terrible setting" not this.
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    The only way this would be different is if we went for a war of extermination on the Blood Cannibals off the bat. Because by that argument, every second that we allow the Cannibals to survive is enabling them to commit to the mass slaughter of innocent mortals and thus we are huge bastards for doing so. Which is on the table, so fair, but it's not like you'd be advocating actually following through on that otherwise.

    The Clan's long since become accustomed to the reality that not every injustice that we see can be removed with our base strength. That's what makes every mortal the Clan can protect so precious. The fact that living under the Golden Devils is a far better fate than they would otherwise receive.
    Humbaba said:
    There may, may be arguments for occasions where we must pull back because we could not save all our territories, but that is a very, very different beast from buying off a monster like old cannibal by making him a personal feeding palace. One which he can also sneak around at his leisure to discover all the clan secrets going into it's construction, unless you want to permanently strand Manuel in the centre of blood cannibal territory to mind him. Which is an even worse idea.
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    What?

    It's literally the same type of deal as what we're doing with the SPS in the North, and it's not like we're considering that a potential leak of Clan secrets. Let alone sticking Manuel in the middle of that territory in the first place.

    This entire line of argument is farcical on its face.

    Humbaba said:
    I would also point out that with the Curse of Karma removed, while we now see heavenly reward for "Just" actions that we have long been denied, we are still absolutely subject the heavenly punishment and retribution for our bad actions. Setting up a permanent feeding ground to actively abet a monster like old cannibal in torturing and murdering hundreds of thousands or millions of mortals seems like exactly the sort of thing heaven can pounce on gleefully.
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    @occipitallobe are "Heavenly Rewards" for "Just" actions ever going to be on the table for the Golden Devils? Because that assumption sounds optimistic to the point of me needing to have it clarified in the absence of evidence otherwise.

    Humbaba said:
    On a much, much lesser point and more practical point, we also have zero money to create this horrific murder temple.
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    Payment could be negotiated for, it's not like it'll be tribute or anything for them.
     
    [X] Offering Him The Farm

    My one objection's been addressed. We will have to invade eventually, but it's basically only bringing him back up to sustainability – which is better than where we were, when we started, and we had to deal with two Nascents.

    Steady wins the race. We can afford patience.
     
    AlphaDelta said:
    [X] Offering Him The Farm

    My one objection's been addressed. We will have to invade eventually, but it's basically only bringing him back up to sustainability – which is better than where we were, when we started, and we had to deal with two Nascents.

    Steady wins the race. We can afford patience.
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    BB Cannibals are inherently worse at maintaining infrastructure. It's likely not a permanent bonus for them. I'd be willing to give them much more, even half the new territories, for peace.

    [X] Offering Him The Farm
     
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