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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Ok I've been swayed by @BungieONI's reasoning in that we can't afford to lose both our Diplomacy and likely Administration Elders at the same time as we try to recover. Disciple Elder would help on nurturing growth but if we don't have the resources/foundation to do so then all is for naught regardless.

    [x] Kleisthenes Sarantapechos - Your sole remaining friend and diplomat. She has lost a foot and could be carried out.
     
    [X] Kleisthenes Sarantapechos - Your sole remaining friend and diplomat. She has lost a foot and could be carried out.
     
    BungieONI said:
    @Olivebirdy so here's how I see it:

    -For the next twenty years we have One Flood Dragon Nascent to guard our borders, and a Wounded Manuel.
    -In the next forty years we have Manuel kicking around.
    -Our Core Formations don't do much to increase our border security.
    -Our stewardship council person is very likely to be completely dead.
    --If our diplomacy person is also dead and we have two very green stewardship and diplomacy people dead, we are completely fucked in terms of increasing our income or maintaining our current state of income. Therefore having the disciple master won't matter.

    We need to be able to have tools to prop up and reach for Trade Partners in either the magic oak sect or the strength purity sect.
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    -Our Core Formations are basically our tanks, we can't defend our borders with a single nuke alone.
    -A whole bunch of our councilmembers are dead, we need Core Formation cultivators to replace them. Honestly, I don't know why we need CFs for the council, but I'm assuming there's a reason all our councillors were Core Formation. We need people moving up the ladder to replace them.
    TehChron said:
    Who, specifically, is going to attack us that we dont already have sufficient deterrents in our existing fortifications and available Nascent souls to run interference against?
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    We've got the Seven Divine Saber Sect, the Battle Blood Cannibal Sect will invade in about two turns, the Abyssal Devil Bee sect will soon settle their civil war, and it's not like other random sects and cultivators won't take advantage of our weakness to make raids.

    As for the argument of 'everyone's an asshole except Flood Dragon Gang, that doesn't mean diplomacy should be ignored', I agree. It's just that you can get money from strength, it's harder to defend borders with money.
    Adhoc vote count started by Olivebirdy on Oct 17, 2020 at 3:41 PM, finished with 105 posts and 38 votes.
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    BungieONI said:
    -In the next forty years we have Manuel kicking around.
    -Our Core Formations don't do much to increase our border security.
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    we aren't the only ones that have nascent soul cultivators and while Manuel could defiantly deal with most cultivators his level, he still needs core formation cultivators to both help run things and to help in fighting off other core formation cultivators.

    BungieONI said:
    --If our diplomacy person is also dead and we have two very green stewardship and diplomacy people dead, we are completely fucked in terms of increasing our income or maintaining our current state of income. Therefore having the disciple master won't matter.
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    So we lose a bit of income until they gain experience but we won't lose enough to make rising dispels not matter especially as we are most likely going to focus on wealth generation in the coming turns.

    TehChron said:
    Who, specifically, is going to attack us that we dont already have sufficient deterrents in our existing fortifications and available Nascent souls to run interference against?
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    The blood cannibals, in forty years when our truce runs out they are very likely to look at our weekend state as an opportunity to reclaim lost territory's and they would be going to do so after a hundred years of recovery with a nascent soul cultivator that has fought Manuel before and is also about the same age as him.
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    We've got the Seven Divine Saber Sect, the Battle Blood Cannibal Sect will invade in about two turns, the Abyssal Devil Bee sect will soon settle their civil war, and it's not like other random sects and cultivators won't take advantage of our weakness to make raids.
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    Seven Divine Saber Sect is embroiled in the middle of the Ninth Demon Annihilating War with one of the Righteous Powers very close to being wiped out.

    They aren't going to be able to afford dispatching an expedition to attack us in force until at least that War is over, let alone when we haven't even seen the penalties that they're going to eat courtesy of the successful frame job we set up on them this turn. Blood Cannibals aren't going to fare much better since that's literally business as usual when it comes to attack our fortifications, and in 40 years we're likely to have replaced enough of our losses for it to make the difference.

    And you might forget this, but the Devil Bee Sect attacked us when their strength and wealth had been waxing after their successful sacking of that same Seven Divine Saber Palace, before being abruptly brought to an end by their disastrous invasion of Clan territories which only successfully downed one of our Elders because they had a surprise Formation up their sleeve as a hidden ace we'd heard literally nothing about.

    Once the Devil Bees civil war dies down, they're going to have a choice between repeating the same failed trick while on weaker footing in invading us for minimal gain, or they can hit the Verdant South while it's strength is being siphoned to fight the Demon Annihilating War and patch up the Poison Crushing Siege.

    So literally no one we wont already be prepared for will be attacking, then.

    Olivebirdy said:
    As for the argument of 'everyone's an asshole except Flood Dragon Gang, that doesn't mean diplomacy should be ignored', I agree. It's just that you can get money from strength, it's harder to defend borders with money.
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    No it isn't? Money can become strength very easily? In fact, barring ludicrous outliers, that's the primary way to create strength.
     
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    Do note that Manuel can take actions to train disciples. It's not ideal, but we can cover for the loss of our master of disciples.
     
    uri said:
    The blood cannibals, in forty years when our truce runs out they are very likely to look at our weekend state as an opportunity to reclaim lost territory's and they would be going to do so after a hundred years of recovery with a nascent soul cultivator that has fought Manuel before and is also about the same age as him.
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    So what you're saying is that Old Cannibal will willingly risk an even match on Manuel's prepared ground then?

    Rather than attempting to recover the ruined territories that the Jiangshen messed around in, or the Desert Oasis that they wrung out of him?
     
    uri said:
    The blood cannibals, in forty years when our truce runs out they are very likely to look at our weekend state as an opportunity to reclaim lost territory's and they would be going to do so after a hundred years of recovery with a nascent soul cultivator that has fought Manuel before and is also about the same age as him.
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    To add to what Chron is saying, a fight between Nascent Souls is essentially a 50/50. Sure, if the Old Cannibal defeated Manuel, the Blood Cannibals would be in a great position - but if the Old Cannibal dies then they're fucked, they're donezo, they cease to exist. That's how it works. Why would anyone take that shot? There's a lot less painful things to do, with a lot less attached risk.
     
    The cannibals will probably attack in 40 years, but I doubt the Old Cannibal himself will show up. To much risk for him to involve him himself, but it is very likely some other upstart will attempt to do something.

    The golden devils is a very nice to get rid of potential rivals. Still, we can't send Manuel to handle it, if in fact there is a hidden dagger there.
     
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    Nordlending said:
    The cannibals will probably attack in 40 years, but I doubt the Old Cannibal himself will show up. To much risk for him to involve him himself, but it is very likely some other upstart will attempt to do something.
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    Honestly, the biggest loss from this in my mind is that we're not gonna be able to use the Blood Key to sabotage them before it loses out on it's effectiveness.

    Turn 6 is the last one that it's guaranteed to work, alas.
     
    Way I see it we have a couple of things that occur to me:

    -We're taking a Wound for Manuel so he will not be able to take a personal action next turn but will still be present.
    -We will be safe enough next turn because Yao will be here to protect our borders and because between the two of them that is a lot of power.
    --Once that time is up Manuel will be present and fully healed and our vassals thus not a problem.
    -Because of the presence of Manuel, what remaining Core Formation elders we have, and Yao our vassals are facing pretty iffy chances if they try to rise up because none of them have Nascent Souls.

    -We will have less than ten Core Formation Elders. Survivors may well be crippled.
    -Our Stewardship elder will be dead. Therefore our income will change negatively as a new stewardship person comes into play which in turn negatively impacts our ability to fund disciples.
    -Our Diplomacy elder is a defense against having bad deals shoved down our throat. Therefore having a new diplomacy person is an avenue for others to take to reduce our ability to recover by shoving bad deals down our throat.
    -Our Diplomacy elder is also a tool to use for increasing our income via trade deals and maintaining our tariffs.

    -Our Military elder will be unable to command in sixty to eighty years but is Great Circle Core Formation and will be focused on training his successor who will actually stay present but in the mean time he is more skilled than the previous one we had.
    -We have twenty seven Save Juniors rolls going on which means that primarily our Qi Condensation will suffer reduced casualties, with some assistance to Foundation Builders as well, though how much reduction for either in comparison to the last trials we don't know yet.
    -Our enemies are caught up in various battles like the Ninth Demon Annihilating war, civil war, or a truce, and Jingshen is held at bay due to a careful dance of diplomacy.

    Olivebirdy said:
    -Our Core Formations are basically our tanks, we can't defend our borders with a single nuke alone.
    -A whole bunch of our councilmembers are dead, we need Core Formation cultivators to replace them. Honestly, I don't know why we need CFs for the council, but I'm assuming there's a reason all our councillors were Core Formation. We need people moving up the ladder to replace them.
    We've got the Seven Divine Saber Sect, the Battle Blood Cannibal Sect will invade in about two turns, the Abyssal Devil Bee sect will soon settle their civil war, and it's not like other random sects and cultivators won't take advantage of our weakness to make raids.

    As for the argument of 'everyone's an asshole except Flood Dragon Gang, that doesn't mean diplomacy should be ignored', I agree. It's just that you can get money from strength, it's harder to defend borders with money.
    Adhoc vote count started by Olivebirdy on Oct 17, 2020 at 3:41 PM, finished with 105 posts and 38 votes.
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    What I'm saying is that your Disciple Build Up rush? Assumes we will have income we won't have if our Diplomacy elder also dies and our enemies start making moves against us both financially and militarily. Every single (Reduce income for X turns to get Y) option we've had has come in under our Diplomat. I really don't want the Strength Purity Sect or Jingshen to start getting ideas of pressuring whichever greenhorn we stick in there into bad deals simply because they don't have experience. I.e the quality of our diplomat is what helps determine the quality of our deals.

    The primary deterrent is our Nascent Soul because they can crush hundreds to tens of thousands of lesser realms at once. Our clan is built around punching up formations so our Foundation Builders can hold the line with the spare number of Core Formations as a core we have along with our Great Circle Military elder.

    uri said:
    we aren't the only ones that have nascent soul cultivators and while Manuel could defiantly deal with most cultivators his level, he still needs core formation cultivators to both help run things and to help in fighting off other core formation cultivators.

    So we lose a bit of income until they gain experience but we won't lose enough to make rising dispels not matter especially as we are most likely going to focus on wealth generation in the coming turns.
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    Everyone of relevance has Nascent Soul cultivators, that's what makes them relevant because its a bad trade to try and attack them without significant luck or preparation. At our current pre-trial income we can support 65 Core Formation, and had 54. We now have less than twelve-ish or ten, I'm going to assume less than ten.

    Our ability to make money, which is how we fund the climb of cultivators up the ladder, comes from these things:

    Our stewardship elder, who is almost certainly dead. Therefore our income is going to be getting a big hit.
    Our Core Formation and every other rank of cultivator. Our income will take a hit, though how much of one is up in the air.
    Our diplomacy elder is how we determine what deals we get and supports the stewardship elder in this. If we have a less experienced diplo elder, we will get worse deals and that's another hit. It's also a military threat, because bad deals are a means to bleed us before they strike.

    We don't know what kinds of deals we'd actually get if we take a newbie diplo elder but we do know they would be worse for us than if we have our Mid Core Formation diplo elder.

    TehChron said:
    Honestly, the biggest loss from this in my mind is that we're not gonna be able to use the Blood Key to sabotage them before it loses out on it's effectiveness.

    Turn 6 is the last one that it's guaranteed to work, alas.
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    Honestly I went into this gamble assuming we wouldn't be able to capitalize on that little detail. We may still be able to use the Blood Key in order to flank and defend ourselves, but actually attacking back with it is extremely ill advised.

    Of course when considering the Blood Cannibals its worth noting that they haven't been able to expand while both us and Jingshen have been able to. Jingshen actually tries to talk to us though, so I think the play they're most likely to make is to poke us with Lady Jian to "assist" them with attacking the Blood Cannibals. Which is basically a play to weaken the both of us again. Depending on how we're doing that may or may not be worth taking.

    *shrug* we won't know till it comes up.

    But if I was playing Jingshen I'd be eying up the Blood Cannibals like a piece of prime rib and thinking about how I could deal with my other problem.
     
    BungieONI said:
    But if I was playing Jingshen I'd be eying up the Blood Cannibals like a piece of prime rib and thinking about how I could deal with my other problem.
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    Nah, the Jiangshen have a crumple zone in their southermost territories with the Bandit Kingdoms and such salted to prevent mortal populations from arising there.

    Chances are that something similar is planned with the Oasis region while they fort up the 100 Kingdoms Alliance or whatever and leave checking Old Cannibal to us.
     
    [X] Kleisthenes Sarantapechos - Your sole remaining friend and diplomat. She has lost a foot and could be carried out.

    Was on the fence about this so I decided to wait and listen for discussion since it's concerning the fate of the Clan.
    TehChron and other's make good argument's too I'll throw my hat in.
     
    TehChron said:
    So what you're saying is that Old Cannibal will willingly risk an even match on Manuel's prepared ground then?

    Rather than attempting to recover the ruined territories that the Jiangshen messed around in, or the Desert Oasis that they wrung out of him?
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    Yes, because it's not going to be an even match, by the time the battle blood cannibals would attack us they would have been recovering for a hundred years with relatively little interference, also he doesn't have to actually fight himself if he does what the devil bees did and only use lower realms to fight where he will have a significant advantage and we will need to decide if Manuel will act first and give him an advantage in the nascent soul fight.

    The reason he wouldn't go for the Jiangshan because they aren't in a position of weakness.

    Zephias said:
    o add to what Chron is saying, a fight between Nascent Souls is essentially a 50/50. Sure, if the Old Cannibal defeated Manuel, the Blood Cannibals would be in a great position - but if the Old Cannibal dies then they're fucked, they're donezo, they cease to exist. That's how it works. Why would anyone take that shot? There's a lot less painful things to do, with a lot less attached risk.
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    Also I think you both are forgetting about the possibility of the cannibals rising a second nascent soul cultivator, we have a small chance of getting one after about one hundred years with no real preparation to help in the tribulation the cannibals will have a much batter chances.

    BungieONI said:
    What I'm saying is that your Disciple Build Up rush? Assumes we will have income we won't have if our Diplomacy elder also dies and our enemies start making moves against us both financially and militarily. Every single (Reduce income for X turns to get Y) option we've had has come in under our Diplomat. I really don't want the Strength Purity Sect or Jingshen to start getting ideas of pressuring whichever greenhorn we stick in there into bad deals simply because they don't have experience. I.e the quality of our diplomat is what helps determine the quality of our deals.
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    We won't lose that much income and infact our income might go up because we don't have to maintain about sixty core formation cultivators, we will have the money to start recovering our numbers and we need someone that will have experience in rising our numbers.
     
    uri said:
    Yes, because it's not going to be an even match, by the time the battle blood cannibals would attack us they would have been recovering for a hundred years with relatively little interference, also he doesn't have to actually fight himself if he does what the devil bees did and only use lower realms to fight where he will have a significant advantage and we will need to decide if Manuel will act first and give him an advantage in the nascent soul fight.

    The reason he wouldn't go for the Jiangshan because they aren't in a position of weakness.



    Also I think you both are forgetting about the possibility of the cannibals rising a second nascent soul cultivator, we have a small chance of getting one after about one hundred years with no real preparation to help in the tribulation the cannibals will have a much batter chances.



    We won't lose that much income and infact our income might go up because we don't have to maintain about sixty core formation cultivators, we will have the money to start recovering our numbers and we need someone that will have experience in rising our numbers.
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    You cannot confidently state that we won't lose much income because there is no basis for that claim. There is basis for my claim that we will lose significant income due to the fact that our chief money person is likely to be dead as well as most of the people who make our money for us, our workers and mission takers.

    Our income per turn is dependent on our stewardship person and our population of core formation elders, with significant assistance from our foundation and qi condensation cultivators.

    We do not have much of anything saved up, there is no money there, and there will be reduced income thus reduced capacity to support Core Formation cultivators and reduced capacity to save money every turn. Our income cannot go up much at all because the people who provide it are going to be dead. It doesn't exist without our people.

    We are hemorrhaging means to make money. Therefore, we need to stop the bleeding in that regard, therefore save the diplomacy person who is one part of the trifecta that gives us money. We can't train up a lot of Core Formations if our income stream is toast.
     
    uri said:
    Yes, because it's not going to be an even match, by the time the battle blood cannibals would attack us they would have been recovering for a hundred years with relatively little interference, also he doesn't have to actually fight himself if he does what the devil bees did and only use lower realms to fight where he will have a significant advantage and we will need to decide if Manuel will act first and give him an advantage in the nascent soul fight.

    The reason he wouldn't go for the Jiangshan because they aren't in a position of weakness.
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    Core Formations don't matter against Nascent Souls without Formations enabling them to punch up.

    Against our entrenched defenses, and with the recovering we'll do over the next two turns...?

    No

    Those numbers won't matter at all against Manuel.


    uri said:
    Also I think you both are forgetting about the possibility of the cannibals rising a second nascent soul cultivator, we have a small chance of getting one after about one hundred years with no real preparation to help in the tribulation the cannibals will have a much batter chances.
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    No, they don't.

    Raising up Child Corpse Gulper depopulated their entire territory. Setting aside the feasibility of such an approach, they straight up can't do so in the first place thanks to the actions taken by the Jiangshen and ourselves.
     
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    Here is my 2 bits.

    Stewardship is in trouble because more likely then not our elder won't live, but at least we probably won't be doing any projects for a turn or 2 so they should get up to speed in time. We will lose a bit of income from the change over and we don't have a good storage saved up anymore

    intrigue, Manuel use to be that elder so he can train up the next guy and keep things under control while new guy learns

    martial, he's still here and can teach his replacement so it is the only place we have no problems.

    Diplomacy and training. This is what everyone is arguing about. For diplomacy, we really don't have anyone good to replace them, also Manuel has not had to best luck negotiating. For training, out Qi level guys should come out better than normal from all the saving our seeds are doing. Foundation should be ok as many Qi survivors will probably get a boost towards cultivation. The Core is where we really hurt, but they should have a passable number in one turn. It's that first turn we have to be careful. I don't know if a new trainer can handle helping people cross over to core realm.

    I think we need to go diplomacy, we need to make some deals for more cash, and we can use cash to boost cultivation speed
     
    That's some obnoxious bullshit there from the asshat. Really annoying that he didn't even get a crippling wound from that first Tribulation strike before scampering off.

    And damn, I was thinking for a while the karmic boost to killers would go away (or the "everything becomes ruins under your hand" bit) - not just the Karmic Bad Luck. That'd be a lovely situation - where it could be spun as the jerk ruined the "karmic luck" boost for everyone. Would be hard for his doting grandfather to protect him from that. And I really hope something good happens from protecting Ninth Prince (or really bad to asshat's family).

    Alright, so the next few turns are going to be very rocky. Hopefully the other side of things (the juniors) goes well - if it didn't, then I don't think recovery is viable.
     
    CircleTheSkies said:
    That's some obnoxious bullshit there from the asshat. Really annoying that he didn't even get a crippling wound from that first Tribulation strike before scampering off.

    And damn, I was thinking for a while the karmic boost to killers would go away (or the "everything becomes ruins under your hand" bit) - not just the Karmic Bad Luck. That'd be a lovely situation - where it could be spun as the jerk ruined the "karmic luck" boost for everyone. Would be hard for his doting grandfather to protect him from that. And I really hope something good happens from protecting Ninth Prince (or really bad to asshat's family).

    Alright, so the next few turns are going to be very rocky. Hopefully the other side of things (the juniors) goes well - if it didn't, then I don't think recovery is viable.
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    We've done our best in that regard so all we can do is keep trucking on. All of the Saving Juniors rolls are pure bonus, so that's 27 bonus rolls. Some of our Good Seeds are probably gonna be fucked up pretty bad, but we can recover if we're alive and most of us have Life Saving Treasures.
     
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