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Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

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Windborne said:
Yeah though that's more for variety as far as I am aware. The main supplies that are needed are available from the main Singularities. Really the most important thing is the bonds forged during the Events. Without them, and in particular Dantes who does a lot in the background, Chaldea will fail in the final hours. No if's ands or buts, without Chaldea having those they lose, and Humanity is erased. Taylor being around will absolutely not be enough to offset anything, and the Twins won't be able to offset it either. The Grails are next in terms of importance as the extra power they can generate is vital too, followed by the extra supplies.
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Speaking of Dantès, Septem provides an opportunity I never realized until recently; the opportunity to claim the Monte Cristo Mythologie, the 14 relics in the treasure of Monte Cristo that provide Dantès with his trademark soul-burning black flames and Age of Gods-quality Magic Circuits. And if Dantès, a bog-standard human from the 18th century with no natural Magic Circuits can make use of it, then surely Taylor can claim it as well. And since Septem is a Singularity, it'll still be there for Dantès to find in the 18th century even if Taylor takes it during Septem.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
"But if he wasn't, then there's one other dragon-slaying hero that might have been called."

"Saint George,"
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I have to say, if you have a fallen saint, summoning dragons to terrorize the countryside, and a legend were to spontaneously manifest to counter it, I'd naturally assume it'd be the saint known for defending people from dragons terrorizing the countryside.


James D. Fawkes said:
"I…I don't feel like I'm fake, but…" She trailed off for a moment, then started again. "If I was nothing more than the idealized version of Jeanne that the people of France believed in, would I even know for sure?"
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So here's one of the confusing parts of the "Heroic Servant" idea.
They are empowered by their legend.
In some cases, the legend alone can create people that never existed.
The legend is for the Saint Jeanne d'Arc.

How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.

It also applies to all the "true versions" of the Heroes.
It doesn't matter if the stories are wrong and the Hero is "real," since their status comes from the stories.
 
Yeah, while Kiyo and Liz don't quite fit the Singularity itself, Liz in specific being there is important enough that if you actually don't include her in the Singularity you're going to need to add some kind of custom... something not long after Orleans in order to patch over that plot hole, otherwise it presents actual problems with the overall story of FGO.
 
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Blaflaix said:
So here's one of the confusing parts of the "Heroic Servant" idea.
They are empowered by their legend.
In some cases, the legend alone can create people that never existed.
The legend is for the Saint Jeanne d'Arc.

How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.

It also applies to all the "true versions" of the Heroes.
It doesn't matter if the stories are wrong and the Hero is "real," since their status comes from the stories.
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Shirou also has precisely zero legends about him, but he still makes it to the throne of heroes and can be summoned just fine.

One of the most important things to realize about the Nasuverse is that almost every person who gives any sort of exposition(and yes, this includes out-of-universe info like a Q&A with Nasu himself) has a good 50% chance of Nasu indulging in his love for unreliable narration.

like, why the heck is there both a Carmilla and an Elizabeth Bathory, but not a Vlad III Tepes and a Count Dracula?

for that matter, why can you summon Illya, Kuro, and Miya as servants?

The precedent for Servants being summonable and powerful without a legend of their own is established in F/SN by Archer if you honestly care about that.
 
Blaflaix said:
So here's one of the confusing parts of the "Heroic Servant" idea.
They are empowered by their legend.
In some cases, the legend alone can create people that never existed.
The legend is for the Saint Jeanne d'Arc.

How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.

It also applies to all the "true versions" of the Heroes.
It doesn't matter if the stories are wrong and the Hero is "real," since their status comes from the stories.
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Plot reasons for the Singularity are why Jalter exists that we'll eventually find out in-story.

Although it's not technically impossible for some far-flung future to have made a derivative fictional work, or where the actual legend's details are lost, given the Human Order literally redefines History of the past for the future to an extent, and thus have a legend|possbility for Jalter to latch onto. Think of it like this, you know how Alchemy uses Gold as a symbol for the Sun's power? It's a stand-in given the power to fill more or less the intended role of the Sun within the Alchemist's plan, and Servants are effectively constructs fashioned from Ether filled with information derived from a Heroic Spirit. Ghost Liners and Human History have also been compared to Scrolls and Books via various metaphors before.

Worldsoul15 said:
Shirou also has precisely zero legends about him, but he still makes it to the throne of heroes and can be summoned just fine.

One of the most important things to realize about the Nasuverse is that almost every person who gives any sort of exposition(and yes, this includes out-of-universe info like a Q&A with Nasu himself) has a good 50% chance of Nasu indulging in his love for unreliable narration.

like, why the heck is there both a Carmilla and an Elizabeth Bathory, but not a Vlad III Tepes and a Count Dracula?

for that matter, why can you summon Illya, Kuro, and Miya as servants?

The precedent for Servants being summonable and powerful without a legend of their own is established in F/SN by Archer if you honestly care about that.
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Counter Force reasons for Shirou in another timeline where they forged a contract and I'd expect that to be the same for the Magical Girls', given it does have a History of active and 'temporary' recruitment for the duration of the Incineration. Although I don't really have the context behind the Magical Girls' stay in Chaldea.

Vlad does have a version of himself that fully excepts Dracula's legend hence the Zerker class from what I understand, and I'd assume Dracula by itself without the foundation of Vlad would be more likely a phantom, or something like Nursey Rhyme in nature. As for Carmilla, she's still built from the foundations of Bathory rather than an independent being, or rather Carmilla isn't an Alter Ego like say Passionlip, and isn't utterly divorced from their Origin.
 
Blaflaix said:
I have to say, if you have a fallen saint, summoning dragons to terrorize the countryside, and a legend were to spontaneously manifest to counter it, I'd naturally assume it'd be the saint known for defending people from dragons terrorizing the countryside.





So here's one of the confusing parts of the "Heroic Servant" idea.
They are empowered by their legend.
In some cases, the legend alone can create people that never existed.
The legend is for the Saint Jeanne d'Arc.

How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.

It also applies to all the "true versions" of the Heroes.
It doesn't matter if the stories are wrong and the Hero is "real," since their status comes from the stories.
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I am far from an expert but here is my opinion.
Jeanne's Legend started not from the moment she was a Saint, because that was awarded postmortum, but the moment a village girl decided that God needed her to save France.

From what little I've learned, Jeanne was an badass commander with a penchant for pulling off insane ideas to win, had zero fucks to give in most situations, and was a zealot that inspired those around her.

My headcanon is that the Ruler Class is stifling her true personality and bringing forth instead the ideal of a maiden saint, with gentle words and calm demeanor. Her purest incarnation would then be a Berserker with low levels (or EX?) of Madness Enhancement, with plenty of saintly and martial powers. But I digress.

Jeanne Alter's personality did not come from nowhere, and yet her Spirit Origin was designed to be a complete parallel of Jeanne's.

Her legend begins after Jeanne d'Arc burns for witchcraft, the 'end' of her legend, and her sole purpose is to erase Jeanne's legacy, France. And she works her way from the end to the beginning.

Gilles even comments on why he gave Jean power over dragons, to work off the legend of Saint Martha and the Tarrasque, but the truth is that Jeanne Alter was an unstable existance, meant to burn hard and crumble to ash. Gilles hooked her up to a grail, gave her power that keeps her existence stable, and gave her a goal to destroy all Jeanne OG loved and protected.

Jeanne Alter only becomes a 'true' heroic spirit after she dies ironically, becoming an Avenger that serves as the parallel Jeanne d'Arc with much in common and yet a mockery of each other.

To summarize, Jalter is an Alter, a reflection made manifest of a heroic spirit's dark thoughts that they would rather not face or embrace, and draws existence from that. That, along with the Spirit Origin of an Avenger, allows her to continue as 'a Jeanne that let grudges overtake her'.
 
Blaflaix said:
I have to say, if you have a fallen saint, summoning dragons to terrorize the countryside, and a legend were to spontaneously manifest to counter it, I'd naturally assume it'd be the saint known for defending people from dragons terrorizing the countryside.





So here's one of the confusing parts of the "Heroic Servant" idea.
They are empowered by their legend.
In some cases, the legend alone can create people that never existed.
The legend is for the Saint Jeanne d'Arc.

How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.

It also applies to all the "true versions" of the Heroes.
It doesn't matter if the stories are wrong and the Hero is "real," since their status comes from the stories.
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The Legend of a Heroic Spirit is additive to the Spirit in question. It will only replace qualities or parts of the Spirit that it is greater than, otherwise, the Spirit in it's original form takes precedence. Remember, the Legend only makes them stronger and more powerful. They are not defined by their Legend, nor are they limited by it, it is merely another part of the whole. Where this comes in for Jalter is that she is actually based off of Jeanne's Legend, with Gilles' edgy revenge fanfiction tacked on to the end. She does not have Jeanne's soul, she is made entirely by the desires and beliefs of others. This is partly because a 'Jeanne that hates France' cannot exist, as in it's actually impossible. She only survives this Singularity by changing herself into a 'Jeanne that wished to be saved from her death' as in she prayed to God to save her when she was being executed, tying her closer to the original Jeanne, because this version of Jeanne is a possibility that can be summoned as an Alter. The reason Jalter exists as she does currently is basically 'Grail Shenanigans'. Jalter being brought into existence is also why Jeanne is the way she is, she was the original Jeanne's soul cut away from Jalter so that Jalter could be made into what Gilles wanted her to be. As such Jeanne and Jalter are technically one Servant, just split in half and one of those halves was given some add-ons, Jalter as she is now cannot exist without Jeanne, which is why Jeanne was instead manifested as a weakened Ruler than simply going back to the Throne, Gilles is technically keeping her there as long as he keeps Jalter, and the Counter Force made it so she would manifest to help fight the Singularity.
 
Blaflaix said:
So here's one of the confusing parts of the "Heroic Servant" idea.
They are empowered by their legend.
In some cases, the legend alone can create people that never existed.
The legend is for the Saint Jeanne d'Arc.

How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.

It also applies to all the "true versions" of the Heroes.
It doesn't matter if the stories are wrong and the Hero is "real," since their status comes from the stories.
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Nasu only makes rules so he can introduce a character that can break them.
This writing method was then carried over to the rest of the writing staff when Type Moon expanded.
Well, that and mandatory LSD fueled brainstorming sessions.
 
AionVal said:
Nasu only makes rules so he can introduce a character that can break them.
This writing method was then carried over to the rest of the writing staff when Type Moon expanded.
Well, that and mandatory LSD fueled brainstorming sessions.
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Eventually, when the last Type-Moon media is released, we will learn that the rule that last protagonist has broken, is the rule that protagonists break the rules:V
 
Lagoon12002 said:
My headcanon is that the Ruler Class is stifling her true personality and bringing forth instead the ideal of a maiden saint, with gentle words and calm demeanor. Her purest incarnation would then be a Berserker with low levels (or EX?) of Madness Enhancement, with plenty of saintly and martial powers. But I digress.
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Have you seen Summer Jeanne?
 
The Void said:
As for Carmilla, she's still built from the foundations of Bathory rather than an independent being, or rather Carmilla isn't an Alter Ego like say Passionlip, and isn't utterly divorced from their Origin.
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The thing about Carmilla is that she is the logical outcome of what would happen if you tried to summon Elizabeth Bathory, like she's what you should get if for some reason you used a catalyst aiming specifically for her. Liz, love her or not, is distinctly an aberration, a bundle of recessive traits and junk data crammed into a class container she has almost no qualifications for.
Though with that in mind, beyond the removal of comic relief characters being a questionable choice considering how much of a downer this story is already, Liz serves an important role beyond contributing to Events (which the author already said they have no problem with replacing): that the Moon Cell is lending at least some aid to Chaldeas by porting over data (read: character development) that makes some problematic servants much more helpful to the Throne of Heroes. And I'm really interested in seeing what history the Moon Cell could have with the Entities.
 
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TheFinalWraith said:
Though with that in mind, beyond the removal of comic relief characters being a questionable choice considering how much of a downer this story is already,
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*coughs in Chapter 27*
I definitely feel the lack of a moment to really breathe, though, like I said before. I think Septem is gonna need to have loads more downtime, or rather, I'm going to need to write it more. Orléans didn't ping-pong between important events anywhere near as hard as the canon Singularity did, but we still didn't have enough time to just relax a minute.

The trick of it is going to be convincingly describing Italy from 2000 years ago when I've never even been to the modern day version.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
The trick of it is going to be convincingly describing Italy from 2000 years ago when I've never even been to the modern day version.
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I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes. Like yeah the geography will be somewhat similar and some somewhat similar crops will be grown, but culturally Italy today does not really have a lot in common with Roman Italy, and a lot of what it does have comes from renaissance era scholars who were the Ancient Rome equivalent of weaboos.
 
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I am curious to see how Nero is handled. I know one story just gave her mind control powers, but I prefer the interpretation that she became her own demi-servant and Imperial Privilege becomes even more broken when you also still have an empire.
 
I was always surprised by the lack of transport in the singularities - with a caster, making at least bicycles with an electric motor is not a problem, as well as transferring them to the singularity.
 
sergey28912131 said:
I was always surprised by the lack of transport in the singularities - with a caster, making at least bicycles with an electric motor is not a problem, as well as transferring them to the singularity.
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The only one we actually get transport for is Camelot, which is amusing since it's the second smallest after London. We could've really used that Da Vinci car in Septem or America.
 
memoryofglory said:
The only one we actually get transport for is Camelot, which is amusing since it's the second smallest after London. We could've really used that Da Vinci car in Septem or America.
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Taylor should definitely take care of transportation and weapons for the next Singularity. At least Mash can get a sword or spear, maybe an ax, and Taylor can get a pistol. Da Vinci may well do something equivalent to a rank A noble fantasy against units. Moreover, further according to the canon, Mash used a made sword and a pistol. It is also advisable to make a launcher for launching anti-dragon missiles - missiles with a guidance system and Archer's broken phantasm.

Although we will probably see a dull overpowering again for dramatic effect. But there are fanfiction that is interesting to read without it, even if they can destroy Nasuvers in 13 seconds.
 
Ah... the Meme Ass of FGO. And arguably the most sane of them Paladins. This will be interesting.
Blaflaix said:
How does Jeanne Alter have any power at all?
She has no legend.
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People have already commented a lot of this, but the simplest answer is: the Holy Grail is doing most of the heavy lifting. That's what canon FGO lore basically hinted at to my brain. Jalter then gain popularity like Saber Alter did, so we now have her Avenger version. Or Typemoon just wants another chance to introduce another tsundere... but i digress.

I don't know if people did a lot of debating over this, but part of my theory over why Jeanne isn't as strong as she should be as a Ruler is because she basically just died. Her legend doesn't have time to really spread beyond France and England. She would be reality breaking powerful if she was summoned in modern France in defense of France, but in the singularity where she basically just died while getting her name dragged through the mud? Me think the Counter Force actually did a lot of twigging for her to even be summoned in the singularity.
 
sergey28912131 said:
Taylor should definitely take care of transportation and weapons for the next Singularity. At least Mash can get a sword or spear, maybe an ax, and Taylor can get a pistol. Da Vinci may well do something equivalent to a rank A noble fantasy against units. Moreover, further according to the canon, Mash used a made sword and a pistol. It is also advisable to make a launcher for launching anti-dragon missiles - missiles with a guidance system and Archer's broken phantasm.

Although we will probably see a dull overpowering again for dramatic effect. But there are fanfiction that is interesting to read without it, even if they can destroy Nasuvers in 13 seconds.
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Chaldea's resources aren't in good enough shape to go overboard like that. Remember, they have no outside support anymore, and Da Vinci is using her Noble Phantasm to keep several important systems running while she flits about fixing what can be fixed. She can help out with a few things, but she can't start outfitting the team with loads of incredible weaponry or gadgets, and it's going to be a while before things are stable enough for her to take a breath.
 
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James D. Fawkes said:
Chaldea's resources aren't in good enough shape to go overboard like that. Remember, they have no outside support anymore, and Da Vinci is using her Noble Phantasm to keep several important systems running while she flits about fixing what can be fixed. She can help out with a few things, but she can't start outfitting the team with loads of incredible weaponry or gadgets, and it's going to be a while before things are stable enough for her to take a breath.
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At least bicycles are possible, even bicycles with an electric motor. A sword (B rank) for Mash is also possible. For everything else, the time will come after.
 
sergey28912131 said:
At least bicycles are possible, even bicycles with an electric motor. A sword (B rank) for Mash is also possible. For everything else, the time will come after.
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Of course swords are possible, Emiya's right there. Even if you don't take him along it might be possible to have him kit your whole team out before you rayshift, or custom make some stuff to send over in supply drops. Even if a lot of his Noble Phantasms are difficult for anyone but him or their original owner to properly use even 'regular' magic weapons like the Black Keys could be pretty useful. Especially in this singularity with a bunch of zombies and vampires running around.
 
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