In the event that he did, in fact, have memories of Illya, then it would probably go like this:

Emh, Herk does have memories of the Fuyuki Fifth Holy Grail War: during one Prillya event he manages to basically punch himself in place of Illya-Sitonai's 'Shiro' summon (aka her 'pet White Bear'), because Illya was in danger.
 
Context won't matter. He hates Emiya for "stealing" his armory, despite it not being intentional at first. And if Taylor tries to argue back, Gil will point out every point she could have avoided it. His eyes will give him the context he needs so he will not be ignorant of Taylor's past. Taylor usurped his title of "King of Heroes" by Mastering every Cape, and he will demand retribution.
Or he and Olga trade shots over their respective prows for the shipping wars.

Gil: Finally, another worthy women.
Olga: mine, I saw her first and brought her back to health.
Taylor: *Quietly walks backwards out the room missing Jalter standby behind her with a wide smile*
 
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Speaking of TayTay stealing, how likely is she to steal the Abyssal Wyrm from Oberon in Lostbelt 6?
I don't know, to be honest.

I want to say there's Zero chance because Oberon's range of control is FAR larger than Taylor's. (The wyrm was EVERY bug on the entire continent of faery Britain, whereas Taylor's range doesn't exceed the bay without outside help.) But in the places where their ranges clash?

No clue. It'd probably be a messy case of both having control in the small area they share or neither. Either way, Oberon would probably just park the wyrm outside Taylor's range and wait till she's dead before letting it get close.
 
Speaking of TayTay stealing, how likely is she to steal the Abyssal Wyrm from Oberon in Lostbelt 6?
i am unsure if that thing is even a 'bug' or made up of 'bugs' given that faerie britain bugs were often fairies. and what oberon used was less alive and more the concept of 'hole' than anything living, it is also flying in the air, way outside taylors range of 6-8 blocks, it is insanely massive and is kinda sorta oberon himself, who has shown able to ignore clairvoyance from merlin himself, making me unsure if taylors power would even be able to detect it with her power IF it worked. just a lot more likely that no she couldn't.
 
In all seriousness, that would be an explosion waiting to happen.

I can see Gil tolerating Taylor, and vice versa. He would even respect her accomplishments. But Taylor's hang-ups with Authority would clash HARD with Gil. Heck, he might even try to kill Taylor on sight because of what she did. Gilgamesh is the King of Heroes. Not Taylor, but during the battle against Scion, she usurped him of that role. He'd probably keep his anger in check if summoned, but if encountered on the field? Ancient Babylonian Bug spray.

Context won't matter. He hates Emiya for "stealing" his armory, despite it not being intentional at first. And if Taylor tries to argue back, Gil will point out every point she could have avoided it. His eyes will give him the context he needs so he will not be ignorant of Taylor's past. Taylor usurped his title of "King of Heroes" by Mastering every Cape, and he will demand retribution.

Don't forget, Taylor is a Beast Candidate and Gilgamesh will detect that immediately with Sha Naqba Imuru.

I don't know, to be honest.

I want to say there's Zero chance because Oberon's range of control is FAR larger than Taylor's. (The wyrm was EVERY bug on the entire continent of faery Britain, whereas Taylor's range doesn't exceed the bay without outside help.) But in the places where their ranges clash?

No clue. It'd probably be a messy case of both having control in the small area they share or neither. Either way, Oberon would probably just park the wyrm outside Taylor's range and wait till she's dead before letting it get close.

The Abyssal Worm IS Oberon, and vice versa. They're the same entity. If one's in range, they both are.
 
And if Taylor tries to argue back, Gil will point out every point she could have avoided it
Except that's bullshit. People forget that Khepri wasn't even the endgame, it took another 3-4 miracle hail marys past that to even reach the position where scion decided to give up, and then conveniently khepri had managed to preserve all the pieces she actually needed to lock in the kill. (Like the giant gun she had all the tinkers build before she had any idea she'd need a planet buster gun, that wouldn't have done shit to the avatar)
 
Except that's bullshit. People forget that Khepri wasn't even the endgame, it took another 3-4 miracle hail marys past that to even reach the position where scion decided to give up, and then conveniently khepri had managed to preserve all the pieces she actually needed to lock in the kill. (Like the giant gun she had all the tinkers build before she had any idea she'd need a planet buster gun, that wouldn't have done shit to the avatar)
I'm not disagreeing, but it's Gilgamesh that would. And his stance would be simple.

The context for the deed is irrelevant. She stepped into his domain by claiming dominion over all that held the title of Hero. And she did so by sacrificing her humanity, effectively undermining and reversing his greatest and most important feat. Unshackling humanity from the chains of Gods who wished to control their potential. Taylor became an Alien-like being, her passenger being the one in-charge most of the time, and claimed the title of "King of Heroes." Frankly, Enkidu would probably be pissed too.
 
She stepped into his domain by claiming dominion over all that held the title of Hero. And she did so by sacrificing her humanity, effectively undermining and reversing his greatest and most important feat. Unshackling humanity from the chains of Gods who wished to control their potential
And her answer to that would be "If that unshackling is so important, where were you when the world was ending". Taylor didn't "claim dominion over all heroes" (and she took more than heroes my guy, she took all parahumans) to "be the new god king" or whatever the fuck. She did it to save all of mankind across the entire multiverse. If he wants to judge her for that, he can go save mankind himself.
 
And her answer to that would be "If that unshackling is so important, where were you when the world was ending". Taylor didn't "claim dominion over all heroes" (and she took more than heroes my guy, she took all parahumans) to "be the new god king" or whatever the fuck. She did it to save all of mankind across the entire multiverse. If he wants to judge her for that, he can go save mankind himself.
I'm getting the distinct impression that your arguing more with me. Cause if you are, you're preaching to the choir. While I have my personal beef with Taylor's methods. I know a shit hand when I see it. And she did the best with that hand.

But this is Gilgamesh I'm talking about. Freaking, "imma unleash all of man's evil across the world to cull the worthless that have gathered." Hell, he'd probably say that humanity should have been able to unite to defeat Scion and shouldn't have needed her to force cooperation. He'd ask, "Why did humanity NEED you to build that weapon? Why did humanity NEED you to force co-operation against a foe that threatened your world? That is the failure of your world. Humanity had all the tools to defeat Scion handed to them by the very creature they needed to defeat, and they were incapable of the task. Why would I bother? Scion had a finite life, whereas the multiverse is infinite. And with the death of his Mate, his impact would be forever blunted. Your world would have ended, but you of all people should know how deserved that world's fate was."

He's a dick like that.
 
Yes, and in the UBW Route Archer/EMIYA never had to close himself with Herakles in his Reality Marble to chip away as many lives as possible from the Berserker, whereas in the route he did (Fate Route) guess what? What happened here happened there.

So no, it is not a nerf.
Yes, but he also accomplished more kills in his life on the Fate route.

3-4 just seems like a paltry sum, even vanilla Altria could do that much without struggling.

If he'd used one Broken Caliburn, it would get at least 5 lives.
 
Yes, but he also accomplished more kills in his life on the Fate route.

3-4 just seems like a paltry sum, even vanilla Altria could do that much without struggling.

If he'd used one Broken Caliburn, it would get at least 5 lives.
No, she couldn't. That was half the conflict of Fate route. Artoria couldn't do anything against Herk except get ragdolled. The only solution she had was Excalibur, which is expensive and extremely destructive, making it exceptionally unwieldy in most of the story's combat scenarios. She even has a line when she and Medusa have their final battle about how fighting on top of the skyscraper might be advantageous to Rider, but it's also advantageous to her, because she doesn't have to worry about collateral damage when she can aim up at the sky. There's a line later where she talks about the corpse of the tanker sitting in the bay, and how Kiritsugu put it there so she could use it as a backstop in the previous war, just for the sake of avoiding doing too much damage to the city.

There are so many A-Rank NPs thrown around these days that it's really easy to forget, but Herk was a fucking monster in the OG FSN. That was why it was such a big deal that Saber Alter could toss him around without much trouble. Herk being so strong is the main reason Rin partners up with Shirou in Fate route, in fact, because she realized exactly how outmatched they would be alone.
 
TBF, Artoria is also entirely willing to just up and Excaliblast away Medea's Dragon Tooth Trash Mooks despite being in Shirou's home and surrounded by other houses.

Saber readies her sword again. Her sword isn't invisible now. Maybe there's no need to hide it now, but the golden sword is glowing to show off its true powers.

"H-Hold on, Saber! Don't use Excalibur! I don't care if my house gets blown awa… well, I do mind, but there're other houses around here. You should know what'll happen if you use it here…!"

I yell while parrying away bones in front of me.

Artoria is a little inconsistent in her regard for collateral when using Excalibur (see also her hunting technique, which was to occasionally use a nuke to kill a deer, presumably without all that much regard for whatever else was in the forest when she started blasting).

Artoria: Well. When your game hides in the lee of a mountain or a dense forest then completely eradicating the surroundings would be one way to get at it, wouldn't it? It's not something I always do, you know?...There are times when I need to, though. That's all. Child of Light, am I breaking Celtic hunting etiquette in some way?

Cú Chulainn: This goes way beyond simple etiquette! No one bothered to bring it up to you?

Artoria: Don't be ridiculous. Are you saying this is an absurd thing to do? When Agravain came with me on hunts, he would say with his lifeless eyes, "Impressive, Your Majesty. You certainly gave it your all." Are you saying that was all just lip service?
 
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Before London, there is a very daunting ordeal the team has to go through. The post-Okeanos intermission is going to be a bit longer than normal this time.
Is this KnK?
Artoria couldn't do anything against Herk except get ragdolled.
To be fair that was Manaless!Injured!Artoria, when her fighting style relies on expending bursts of mana. But otherwise, yeah.

People are just annoyed because they were looking forward to people being shocked at EMIYA, and they didn't get that.
 
No, she couldn't. That was half the conflict of Fate route. Artoria couldn't do anything against Herk except get ragdolled. The only solution she had was Excalibur, which is expensive and extremely destructive, making it exceptionally unwieldy in most of the story's combat scenarios. She even has a line when she and Medusa have their final battle about how fighting on top of the skyscraper might be advantageous to Rider, but it's also advantageous to her, because she doesn't have to worry about collateral damage when she can aim up at the sky. There's a line later where she talks about the corpse of the tanker sitting in the bay, and how Kiritsugu put it there so she could use it as a backstop in the previous war, just for the sake of avoiding doing too much damage to the city.

There are so many A-Rank NPs thrown around these days that it's really easy to forget, but Herk was a fucking monster in the OG FSN. That was why it was such a big deal that Saber Alter could toss him around without much trouble. Herk being so strong is the main reason Rin partners up with Shirou in Fate route, in fact, because she realized exactly how outmatched they would be alone.

I think you're confusing cause and effect here, as demonstrated after the H-scenes, the Arturia is considerably boosted after switching to a better master under Rin, and even Kiritsugu demonstrates at least a one to two rank boost in parameters compared to no Mana at all under Shirou. Furthermore, extrapolating by total expenditure, even under Rin, she could power at least two Excaliblasts and the Fujimarus can't possibly have worse circuits than Shirou.

Caliburn has a lower cost anyway, and it's probably Archer's best image after Excalibur and Avalon and second best after Avalon faded, therefore the cost should be lower, so with increased efficiency.

Besides, aren't they supported by Chaldea's Mana generators, I never understood why canonically, they don't treat the matter of mass-producible NPs with the appropriate awe and use it deserves.
TBF, Artoria is also entirely willing to just up and Excaliblast away Medea's Dragon Tooth Trash Mooks despite being in Shirou's home and surrounded by other houses.



Artoria is a little inconsistent in her regard for collateral when using Excalibur (see also her hunting technique, which was to occasionally use a nuke to kill a deer, presumably without all that much regard for whatever else was in the forest when she started blasting).
Thanks for the anecdote, which source is this from
Is this KnK?

To be fair that was Manaless!Injured!Artoria, when her fighting style relies on expending bursts of mana. But otherwise, yeah.

People are just annoyed because they were looking forward to people being shocked at EMIYA, and they didn't get that.
Agreed, this story lacks the powerful unifying factor of Gar and Escalation.

Also I never understood why JDF didn't use EMIYA in EoSS, since Alaya should be willing to transmit the data for one of her CGs and it would be more efficient for less serious situations.
 
I think you're confusing cause and effect here, as demonstrated after the H-scenes, the Arturia is considerably boosted after switching to a better master under Rin, and even Kiritsugu demonstrates at least a one to two rank boost in parameters compared to no Mana at all under Shirou. Furthermore, extrapolating by total expenditure, even under Rin, she could power at least two Excaliblasts and the Fujimarus can't possibly have worse circuits than Shirou.

Caliburn has a lower cost anyway, and it's probably Archer's best image after Excalibur and Avalon and second best after Avalon faded, therefore the cost should be lower, so with increased efficiency.

Besides, aren't they supported by Chaldea's Mana generators, I never understood why canonically, they don't treat the matter of mass-producible NPs with the appropriate awe and use it deserves.

Thanks for the anecdote, which source is this from

Agreed, this story lacks the powerful unifying factor of Gar and Escalation.

Also I never understood why JDF didn't use EMIYA in EoSS, since Alaya should be willing to transmit the data for one of her CGs and it would be more efficient for less serious situations.
Ehh I'd say it is quite feasible that the twins have less total circuits then Shirou did, at least during the events of Fate Stay-Night, but I'd certainly hope they've been training to have a better magical energy capacity. As training that, far as I understand, lets you reach the maximum quality and capacity that one's circuits can handle.

The main limitation for the Servants are the part where the twins, and even Taylor herself, are quite obviously limited, in that they can't outright supply the total supply of Chaldea's generators on a 1-to-1 ratio. And so the limit on what a Servant can do is largely how throttled is the replenishment rate directly from their Master.
Or is the area so mana dense enough, whether by other fallen Servants, freshly used NPs, or by other means, that they can passively recuperate lost magical energy? Which lets some hurdles of throwing around NPs and sustaining Servants be lessened to a more manageable extent.
 
So, who will win the Taylorbowl? Olga and Jalter are in the running, but a third is all but inevitable. My bet is on Moedred.
No, she couldn't. That was half the conflict of Fate route. Artoria couldn't do anything against Herk except get ragdolled. The only solution she had was Excalibur, which is expensive and extremely destructive, making it exceptionally unwieldy in most of the story's combat scenarios. She even has a line when she and Medusa have their final battle about how fighting on top of the skyscraper might be advantageous to Rider, but it's also advantageous to her, because she doesn't have to worry about collateral damage when she can aim up at the sky. There's a line later where she talks about the corpse of the tanker sitting in the bay, and how Kiritsugu put it there so she could use it as a backstop in the previous war, just for the sake of avoiding doing too much damage to the city.

There are so many A-Rank NPs thrown around these days that it's really easy to forget, but Herk was a fucking monster in the OG FSN. That was why it was such a big deal that Saber Alter could toss him around without much trouble. Herk being so strong is the main reason Rin partners up with Shirou in Fate route, in fact, because she realized exactly how outmatched they would be alone.
Wrong. Artoria COULD actually actually instakill Herc with a full powered Exaliblast. The real problem is Shirou is an extremely shit master and provided her with very little mana, just enough for her to not hemorrhage mana, due to him not even having his own magic circuits activated, and a half-assed emergency summoning. Saber, at that point, had used most of her mana Excaliblasting Rider using her banked mana, hence the lewding, or the magic dragon in Realta Nua. Shirou traces Caliburn, while Rin takes out some of his lives as well. Basically, Saber was gimped as hell in most of the 5th war. She's only de-gimped as Alter with Sakura as a master, or Rin.

Rin, Ritsuka's and, to a lesser extent Kiritsugu on the other hand are good masters, and provides all she needs. Ritsuka has the same as parameters as Rin's.

The game even shows stat blocks at every point, on a per master basis. Her NP is crap without a decent mana supply, hell, she's an entirely different Servant under Shirou. Keep in mind even with the stat nerfs, it's actually worse, because she had little to no mana to throw about, hence most of even her basic toolkit, like mana bursts, had to be used scantly.

Under Shirou:
STR: B
END: C
AGI: C
MAN: B
LCK: B
NP: C

Under Rin:
STR: A
END: B
AGI: B
MAN: A
LCK: A+
NP: A++

Under Kirisugu:
STR: B
END: A
AGI: A
MAN: A
LCK: D
NP: A++

About the twins, they're unique in canon. They can hold like a gorillion Servants and are apex masters, but absolute dogshit at magecraft, because they only have a single, albeit high quality magic circuit. Almost all of their magecraft is dependent on mystic codes, even Gandr. Remember, they aren't even a member of the B-team originally, she/he was the worst of the worst.

Most people can contract only a single Servant, several if particularly good. Ritsuka, meanwhile can contract hundreds. They can also summon shadow servants, though someone who plays FGO would need to check the details of how.
 
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So, who will win the Taylorbowl? Olga and Jalter are in the running, but a third is all but inevitable. My bet is on Moedred.

Wrong. Artoria COULD actually actually instakill Herc with a full powered Exaliblast. The real problem is Shirou is an extremely shit master and provided her with very little mana, just enough for her to not hemorrhage mana, due to him not even having his own magic circuits activated, and a half-assed emergency summoning. Saber, at that point, had used most of her mana Excaliblasting Rider using her banked mana, hence the lewding, or the magic dragon in Realta Nua. Shirou traces Caliburn, while Rin takes out some of his lives as well. Basically, Saber was gimped as hell in most of the 5th war. She's only de-gimped as Alter with Sakura as a master, or Rin.

Rin, Ritsuka's and, to a lesser extent Kiritsugu on the other hand are good masters, and provides all she needs. Ritsuka has the same as parameters as Rin's.

The game even shows stat blocks at every point, on a per master basis. Her NP is crap without a decent mana supply, hell, she's an entirely different Servant under Shirou. Keep in mind even with the stat nerfs, it's actually worse, because she had little to no mana to throw about, hence most of even her basic toolkit, like mana bursts, had to be used scantly.

Under Shirou:
STR: B
END: C
AGI: C
MAN: B
LCK: B
NP: C

Under Rin:
STR: A
END: B
AGI: B
MAN: A
LCK: A+
NP: A++

Under Kirisugu:
STR: B
END: A
AGI: A
MAN: A
LCK: D
NP: A++

About the twins, they're unique in canon. They can hold like a gorillion Servants and are apex masters, but absolute dogshit at magecraft, because they only have a single, albeit high quality magic circuit. Almost all of their magecraft is dependent on mystic codes, even Gandr. Remember, they aren't even a member of the B-team originally, she/he was the worst of the worst.

Most people can contract only a single Servant, several if particularly good. Ritsuka, meanwhile can contract hundreds. They can also summon shadow servants, though someone who plays FGO would need to check the details of how.
That's more a personality thing though, they're stuck at the lowest two ranks at the Clock Tower, so can be assumed to have less than or around Waver tier circuits, probably hovering around low Shirou, High Shinji.
 
That was half the conflict of Fate route. Artoria couldn't do anything against Herk except get ragdolled.
To be fair that was Manaless!Injured!Artoria, when her fighting style relies on expending bursts of mana. But otherwise, yeah.
Pretty much what pyromancer said.
The difference in the Fate route between Saber vs Herk and Archer vs Herk, was that Saber was running on fumes because Shirou is a terrible Master/mana provider, while Archer was on top form thanks to Rin.

Even then, all it took for Saber to destroy 5 of Herk lives on a single attack (NP), was getting a mana top-up from Rin/Shirou.
Its also worth mentioning that she used Caliburn (Fake) for it and not ExCaliburn.

Saber is a real monster when she is at full strength.
Saber under Sakura is at full strength. The trick is that she can go at a 100% indefinitely.
In, say, Shinjuku, Guda supports JAlter and SAlter no problem, and they are not particularly throttled, as far as i remember.
thats a purely gameplay thing. Ritsuka (FGO) is bullshit by any magical metric.
And in any case, is generally accepted that any contract that Ritsuka makes, is upheld by Chaldea reactors and not by Ritsuka.
Ritsuka works more like... a pipeline than anything else. So the magical energy goes:
Chaldea == Ritsuka == Servant

**In the Fate endings where Saber stays around, its stated that Rin uses like 90% of her own capacity to maintain the contract.
 
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Ritsuka works more like... a pipeline than anything else. So the magical energy goes:
Yes, we here discuss how much of bottleneck Guda is on this pipeline. My point that in Shinjuku narrative plot events, Alters not constrained by Guda capacity to channel energy from Chaldea. Therefore "Twins are not Rin" point is somewhat of a nerf, compared to canon feats, where contracted servants not constrained by Guda's capacity to channel mana from reactor.
 
Yes, we here discuss how much of bottleneck Guda is on this pipeline. My point that in Shinjuku narrative plot events, Alters not constrained by Guda capacity to channel energy from Chaldea. Therefore "Twins are not Rin" point is somewhat of a nerf, compared to canon feats, where contracted servants not constrained by Guda's capacity to channel mana from reactor.
I mean, we already knew it doesn't work like canon. Canon says that Chaldea can have Literally All The Servants, and here they're limited, even if the grails they pick up allow them to expand, they still have energy limits.
 
and the Fujimarus can't possibly have worse circuits than Shirou.
Shirou has twenty-seven circuits, which is above-average for a(n ostensibly) first-generation magus.

Ritsuka Fujimaru is explicitly horrible* in all forms of magecraft, except their 100% Servant compatibility.

* - He/she is entirely reliant on their Mystic Codes to provide magecraft support of ANY kind; Kadoc expresses surprise that they can't even reinforce their own eyesight.

That Ritsuka can learn ninjutsu from Fuuma Kotarou implies talent elsewhere, but not in thaumaturgy (one of the dominant branches of Western magecraft).
 
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Shirou has twenty-seven circuits, which is above-average for a(n ostensibly) first-generation magus.

Ritsuka Fujimaru is explicitly horrible* in all forms of magecraft, except their 100% Servant compatibility.

* - He/she is entirely reliant on their Mystic Codes to provide magecraft support of ANY kind; Kadoc expresses surprise that they can't even reinforce their own eyesight.

That Ritsuka can learn ninjutsu from Fuuma Kotarou implies talent elsewhere, but not in thaumaturgy.
He's explicitly listed as having absolutely atrocious quality though, so even with the average circuit count and quality, he can be surpassed in instantaneous output.

For the Chaldea power issue, supply I imagine is not an issue, neither is total transfers. The limitation appears to be allocation per individual transfer for which you need a grail.
 
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