Remove ads

Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

Reader mode
Honestly Davy Jones doesn't exactly have less evidence than, say, Frankenstein. Or Sherlock Holmes. It would be fairly in keeping with FGO for this to just be Davy Jones. Though Jack Sparrow at least probably won't turn up.

Or he could be someone like Koujirou, a person who sort of fits the details of Jones but wasn't him on account of him not existing, summoned by wibble. Someone known for calling a bunch of pirates together or some other legend that could turn into a Noble Phantasm allowing them to try and summon a pirate Servant or someone representing the death of pirates/sailors and get a guy who almost counts aside from not existing.
 
Fun fact: The legend of the Flying Dutchman made Hendrik van der Decken a servant, with a noble phantasm, in the form of his ship, although perhaps some forms of his summoning(probably Avenger, Alter Ego, Pretender or Berserker) may be corrupted by the legend of Davy Jones, in the manner of Vlad the Impaler corrupted by the legend of Dracula.

He is one of the servants of Fate/Requiem, a world where each person has their own Grail and servant, which indicates their fate.
 
Last edited:
James D. Fawkes said:
"Don't be ludicrous," Marie snapped impatiently. "Davy Jones is just an urban legend, an old maritime superstition. The basis for his actual existence is too flimsy to produce a Heroic Spirit!"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
James D. Fawkes said:
"It's because they're modern movies that it doesn't work like that," Marie said, sounding like it was taking every last ounce of her patience to explain. "And anyway, it doesn't matter, because Davy Jones doesn't exist!"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It always amuses me to see just how confident magi are on their preconcepts on topics they don't know the first thing about, and how vehement they are about it too.

Seriously, I don't think there's a single thing any magi said about the Throne of Heroes that's actually turned out to be true in the entire Nasu canon.
 
Moliblazer said:
Seriously, I don't think there's a single thing any magi said about the Throne of Heroes that's actually turned out to be true in the entire Nasu canon.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We still do not have purely literary characters in the form of servants, without any additional explanation, they say they are not literary, but "only a manifestation of a children's book" Nyrsery Rhyme, "a real person who asked to write his story" Dantes, "possibly real, perhaps just a combination of different people, but only he knows" Sherlock and "they are real and have become part of the book, thanks to their terrible influence on sentient beings, allowing them to be embodied in Throne" Old Gods.

Actually, this is one of the reasons why Oberon-Vortigen wants to believe that Titania is real, although Oberon himself is just a glamour of fairies on Vortigen.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if this Servant, Davy Jones/Flying Dutchman or not, is the representative of a Concept like how Pestilence or Nursery Rhyme is. Not quite a divine spirit, but still something greater than a mere Servant. Like a Grim Reaper of the sea.
 
Morket said:
We still do not have purely literary characters in the form of servants, without any additional explanation, they say they are not literary, but "only a manifestation of a children's book" Nyrsery Rhyme, "a real person who asked to write his story" Dantes, "possibly real, perhaps just a combination of different people, but only he knows" Sherlock and "they are real and have become part of the book, thanks to their terrible influence on sentient beings, allowing them to be embodied in Throne" Old Gods.

Actually, this is one of the reasons why Oberon-Vortigen wants to believe that Titania is real, although Oberon himself is just a glamour of fairies on Vortigen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sherlock hinted in his Trial Quest that the existence of otherwise fictional Servants has something to do with the Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon, but declined to elaborate further. We know that Dantes was real because he killed the fuck out of Roa in Fate timelines, but he still acts a little weird about it.

Also, neither Holmes or Moriarty seem capable of manifesting as Servants purely on their own merit, given that they're both Apostles. Old Moriarty has to join with the Freeshooter, Young Moriarty is buffed by the Norns, and Sherlock has some kind of Divine Spirits added to his Saint Graph that we never find out.
 
Stories of Ghost Ships have been an accepted part of humanities' collective mythos for centuries, possibly even millennium. The concept of a decrypt ship sailing the oceans with a crew of ghosts and lost souls have long been accepted, and even today the tales of ships mysteriously disappearing only to reemerge devoid of life exist in limited capacities. *cough* Bermuda Triangle *cough* I could see this servant as the extrapolation of these myths, the Ghost Ship sailing the seas. Perhaps to give it a bit more kick towards manifestation perhaps the identity of Davy Jones and the Flying Dutchman have been borrowed, stolen, or gifted.

Whatever or who it is, I think we know who's replacing Eric now.
 
Zedman7054 said:
Stories of Ghost Ships have been an accepted part of humanities' collective mythos for centuries, possibly even millennium. The concept of a decrypt ship sailing the oceans with a crew of ghosts and lost souls have long been accepted, and even today the tales of ships mysteriously disappearing only to reemerge devoid of life exist in limited capacities. *cough* Bermuda Triangle *cough* I could see this servant as the extrapolation of these myths, the Ghost Ship sailing the seas. Perhaps to give it a bit more kick towards manifestation perhaps the identity of Davy Jones and the Flying Dutchman have been borrowed, stolen, or gifted.

Whatever or who it is, I think we know who's replacing Eric now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Replacing" sort of implies that this guy is the only character added or changed from the canon version. He very much is not, which is all I'm going to say for now.
 
Sylent-M said:
The Bermuda Triangle doesn't actually produce more shipwrecks than any other patch of sea. It's just been a high-traffic area for centuries so it has a lot of incidents from a purely numerical perspective. Percentage wise it's average.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not to mention that if you actually plot out all the shipwrecks/disappearances attributed to the Triangle, it covers most of the Gulf of Mexico and stretches from the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland to the eastern tip of Brazil.
 
Morket said:
We still do not have purely literary characters in the form of servants, without any additional explanation, they say they are not literary, but "only a manifestation of a children's book" Nyrsery Rhyme, "a real person who asked to write his story" Dantes, "possibly real, perhaps just a combination of different people, but only he knows" Sherlock and "they are real and have become part of the book, thanks to their terrible influence on sentient beings, allowing them to be embodied in Throne" Old Gods.

Actually, this is one of the reasons why Oberon-Vortigen wants to believe that Titania is real, although Oberon himself is just a glamour of fairies on Vortigen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
From the top of my head, both Frankenstein and Sasaki Kojiro are fictional, with possibly others I can't remember.

Edit: Cpt Nemo too, I'm pretty sure

Also the counter exemples you cited are already enough to disprove Olga's statements that just because Davy Jones *probably* isn't factual, he can't be a Servant.
Sylent-M said:
The Bermuda Triangle doesn't actually produce more shipwrecks than any other patch of sea. It's just been a high-traffic area for centuries so it has a lot of incidents from a purely numerical perspective. Percentage wise it's average.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hunter531 said:
Not to mention that if you actually plot out all the shipwrecks/disappearances attributed to the Triangle, it covers most of the Gulf of Mexico and stretches from the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland to the eastern tip of Brazil.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So what?
The Bermuda Triangle is legendary for it's mysterious shipwrecks & disappearances. Fate doesn't care about context.
 
Sylent-M said:
The Bermuda Triangle doesn't actually produce more shipwrecks than any other patch of sea. It's just been a high-traffic area for centuries so it has a lot of incidents from a purely numerical perspective. Percentage wise it's average.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, exactly, but the myth of "more ships go missing in the Bermuda Triangle than others" isn't normally explained that way, so a myth is created. And that's what I was referring to, not the actual facts behind the truth, but the Myth, the unconscious belief of magic ghost ships or whatever.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Emiya sighed. "Master," he said, "that was invented for those movies. Even if it is Davy Jones, nothing in them will be relevant to his actual strengths and weaknesses."

Rika looked at him askance. "Isn't that how Heroic Spirits work? They're, um, what was the word Hot Pops used…"

"Ameliorated," Ritsuka supplied helpfully.

"That's it!" She snapped her fingers. "Aren't Heroic Spirits ameliorated by common beliefs held by a bunch of people?"

"That's…" A complicated expression crossed Emiya's face. "That wasn't exactly what he meant when he explained that to you, Master."

"It's because they're modern movies that it doesn't work like that," Marie said, sounding like it was taking every last ounce of her patience to explain. "And anyway, it doesn't matter, because Davy Jones doesn't exist!"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You know, this talk about about modern portrayals in movies affecting Heroes' legends reminds me of a Campione fic I once read where Sif used her portrayals in the recent Thor movies as a female fighter to manifest as a Warrior deity, since that's the image people have of her nowadays.

It's not as if this sort of thing doesn't happen in Fate, despite what Magi say -- I mean, the 'King of Warrior' when summoned has his gear changed to reflect the modern conception of war; Voyager is wholly contemporary legend who got into the throne with no shenanigans, Blackbeard reflects the author's contemporary definition of scum, etc
So clearly, it's not as if the views of modern-day humans somehow don't affect the Throne.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
"It's because they're modern movies that it doesn't work like that," Marie said, sounding like it was taking every last ounce of her patience to explain. "And anyway, it doesn't matter, because Davy Jones doesn't exist!"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This has never made sense to me. If the Throne of Heroes is atemporal, which it has to be for Emiya's summoning to make sense, why would it matter when the change to the myth happened? Is there something I am misunderstanding? Or is it just that the Mage Association is confidently incorrect about the nature of Servants and the Throne?
 
Chaos Theory said:
This has never made sense to me. If the Throne of Heroes is atemporal, which it has to be for Emiya's summoning to make sense, why would it matter when the change to the myth happened? Is there something I am misunderstanding? Or is it just that the Mage Association is confidently incorrect about the nature of Servants and the Throne?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
More often than not, they're completely wrong about, just about everything, to do with the Throne and its inhabitants and everything related to them.
 
Remove ads
On: Why Heroic Spirits are and aren't changed by modern perceptions
  • Informational
    • Chaos Theory said:
    This has never made sense to me. If the Throne of Heroes is atemporal, which it has to be for Emiya's summoning to make sense, why would it matter when the change to the myth happened? Is there something I am misunderstanding? Or is it just that the Mage Association is confidently incorrect about the nature of Servants and the Throne?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Because it takes sincere, heartfelt, common belief for a Heroic Spirit to be changed. Most of them have been, as explained in-story, softened and made better by the modern shift of hero from "someone who accomplishes incredible deeds" to "a noble, inspiring figure who bravely faces terrible odds for a greater good." "To be accepted as fact" is part of the defining necessity to form a Heroic Spirit around.

    This is also why, irrespective of what Nasu might have said before we actually got him in the story, I would have said that Sherlock Holmes was a Heroic Spirit, because people honestly and earnestly believed he was a real person who did a real thing. People wrote letters to 221B Baker Street addressed to Sherlock Holmes, that was how widely he was accepted as a person who existed.

    But this is why modern fictional heroes can't really be Heroic Spirits — unless you make them heroes of alternate worlds instead — because society has a better defined relationship with reality than it did even just 100 years ago. Kids from the 90s might have dreamed of getting a Hogwarts letter delivered by owl on their eleventh birthday, but after the magic of childhood dissipates, those children grow up to recognize that it was just a fantasy and never real. That's why Harry Potter can't be a Heroic Spirit, why Cloud Strife or Vash the Stampede wouldn't qualify either, nor Superman or the Master Chief. We recognize them as inherently fictional, and so we can't believe in them to the degree where they become Heroic Spirits for real.

    Relevant to this chapter, the mere fact that people recognize PotC as being fictional, a movie series that wasn't meant to be historically accurate, should thereby prevent a hypothetical Davy Jones from being a squid-faced, crab-armed monster who secreted away his heart into a treasure chest and buried it in a secret spot, who also happened to be estranged from his sea goddess lover, Calypso.
     
  • Informational
    • James D. Fawkes said:
    But this is why modern fictional heroes can't really be Heroic Spirits
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    This is the part I would argue puts the l the Davy Jones with a jar of dirt back on the table, mostly in him not being a modern fictional hero. The ones I keep coming back to are the existing legendary figures who's modern reputation has changed the way they get summoned. If more people thinking of Vlad Tepes as a Vampire than a military commander gets him summoned as Dracula, why not having more people think of Davy Jones with a squid face than not get him slapped with some Innocent Monster traits too, especially if summoned as a Berserker?

    But that's half the joy of Fate. You can justify just about anything if you really want to.
     
    Don't worry. All of the OC Servants from this Singularity already have their lore written up. The first one who actually gets confirmed and is in a position to have that lore released isn't until Interlude CWK, however, which is still several chapters away. We're on...86 today? Yeah. Interlude CWK is wedged between 92 (XCII), "A Day to Relax", and 93 (XCIII), "Black Flag".
    zadcap said:
    This is the part I would argue puts the l the Davy Jones with a jar of dirt back on the table, mostly in him not being a modern fictional hero. The ones I keep coming back to are the existing legendary figures who's modern reputation has changed the way they get summoned. If more people thinking of Vlad Tepes as a Vampire than a military commander gets him summoned as Dracula, why not having more people think of Davy Jones with a squid face than not get him slapped with some Innocent Monster traits too, especially if summoned as a Berserker?

    But that's half the joy of Fate. You can justify just about anything if you really want to.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    If "Dracula is a vampire" was a more modern conception, I would agree more with that. However, the novel, Dracula, came out in the 1800s. That's not even past the stated cutoff point for "modern" Heroic Spirits. Davy Jones can exist, and it's not to say that certain modern perceptions can't change Heroic Spirits — the lesser known a hero was before the modern era, the more easily modern perceptions created by reimaginings should be able to impact their manifestation — but you still have that hurdle of people accepting the fact of "this depiction isn't real" that comes with a movie franchise.
     
    James D. Fawkes said:
    Because it takes sincere, heartfelt, common belief for a Heroic Spirit to be changed. Most of them have been, as explained in-story, softened and made better by the modern shift of hero from "someone who accomplishes incredible deeds" to "a noble, inspiring figure who bravely faces terrible odds for a greater good." "To be accepted as fact" is part of the defining necessity to form a Heroic Spirit around.

    This is also why, irrespective of what Nasu might have said before we actually got him in the story, I would have said that Sherlock Holmes was a Heroic Spirit, because people honestly and earnestly believed he was a real person who did a real thing. People wrote letters to 221B Baker Street addressed to Sherlock Holmes, that was how widely he was accepted as a person who existed.

    But this is why modern fictional heroes can't really be Heroic Spirits — unless you make them heroes of alternate worlds instead — because society has a better defined relationship with reality than it did even just 100 years ago. Kids from the 90s might have dreamed of getting a Hogwarts letter delivered by owl on their eleventh birthday, but after the magic of childhood dissipates, those children grow up to recognize that it was just a fantasy and never real. That's why Harry Potter can't be a Heroic Spirit, why Cloud Strife or Vash the Stampede wouldn't qualify either, nor Superman or the Master Chief. We recognize them as inherently fictional, and so we can't believe in them to the degree where they become Heroic Spirits for real.

    Relevant to this chapter, the mere fact that people recognize PotC as being fictional, a movie series that wasn't meant to be historically accurate, should thereby prevent a hypothetical Davy Jones from being a squid-faced, crab-armed monster who secreted away his heart into a treasure chest and buried it in a secret spot, who also happened to be estranged from his sea goddess lover, Calypso.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Pretty sure no one ever thought Frankenstein's monster was fact, and she's still in the throne anyway.

    IMO, the reason a hypotetical PotC Davy Jones can't be summoned, is that PotC is explicitly a separate take on the character, rather than a true modern version of the story -- it's not synonimous with the legend of Davy Jones in the same way as something like Vlad Tepes = Dracula. At least not yet.

    Also, honestly, I'm of the opinion that, of the modern day fictional characters you mentioned, Superman, at least, should be in the Throne. That's because at this point Superman isn't an individual or even a character, he's an idea. And IMO that's what ascending to become a Heroic Spirit really means.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top