Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X]Plan Audacity

I realized depending on the what rules you use, my custom Charm, Scoured Perfection of Form might be redundant. I decided to get Riot of Flesh, a book on fomori that Holden also wrote and plugged in the ExvsWoD for playable fomor rules. In it, there is a merit called Bonus Power that grants a fomor another fomor power. Verdant Emptiness Endowment could potentially be used to once a year to grant another power.
It will not matter for this quest, but I thought I should mention it since I posted those Charms earlier.
 
We probably cant steal it.
But there's a good chance we can arrange for it to be taken over by the state. Especially if we can demonstrate the use of unapproved drugs on the residents.

I've been thinking it over, and I think we got the Jack the reporter's phone number for more reason than just embarassing Molly.
QM bolded it.
We haven't used the shell companies for questions yet, and they don't matter once the cult is gone. Taking the credentials and moving stuff around at the layer designed for anonymity using cyber devils seems doable if we're interested in the effort.

Depends on what you think their goals are.
To create a new, sustainable holding? No. To create a distraction that forces the White Council and its allies to expend resources and time to stomp on it or else let it grow larger? Potentially yes.
Yeah, but they can do that in their own territory and keep more control of the situation. It's not like young reds are known for self control, and a slip up means getting stomped on away from support.

It's not completely nonviable, but it's probably not worth it unless you're running a specific game.

Edit:

As an aside, there might be other opportunities here for us after this is over.

A lacking supernatural community leaves lots of openings for enterprising outsiders, and once we clean out the cultists and bat monsters the local competition will be even weaker.

Setting up some remote stuff here might be even easier than trying in Chicago. We could plant cyber devils for industrial espionage, stock games, grey market information trading, and stuff like that without being under the eye of as many people capable of tracking or stopping us.
 
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So... thinking more about it - is what the cultists doing illegal under the White Council Law? The raksha is inside the reality already, so it's not Reaching Beyond the Outer Gates. Summoning various beings and bartering with them is not illegal - Dresden did it while still under the Doom of Damocles, including calling up actual demons. Engineering specific emotions in mortals and murder are (changing others and thou shalt not kill respectively), but, depending on how it's done, it could be a very grey area. And this brings me to the next question that I don't think canon Dresden lore has an answer to: let's say you summon a demon and bind them into your service for a year and a day, bartering away half of your name and the memory of your first kiss. This is a general "be my servant/bodyguard and carry out the tasks I set for you" summoning, no specific goal in mind. That, in principle, isn't Lawbreaking, I think. Now, let's say six months into the deal, something happens and you order the demon to go and murder somebody. For the sake of the argument let's assume that the demon / being you summoned is not bound by "can't harm mortals" rules of non-interference. Are you breaking the Laws here? Or does the demon doing the deed provide the protection against corruption, ironically enough?

If it's the latter, well, I suspect that after we make our kingdom, Harry is going to be summoning a lot of our guys to work for him. He's powerful, and is actually good at summoning magic. And, as their sovereign we could provide him with good price. Starting with "go on a date with us" type of silly stuff, and, more seriously, mentoring and access to White Council lore and resources. In fact, renting our demonic kill squads out to senior White Council members might be a way to establish ourselves politically. There aren't many, if any, factions that would be prepared to work with mortals for morally acceptable prices, like money.
A lacking supernatural community
We don't actually know that. I mean, we haven't contacted anyone from the local community yet. And yes, it's almost guaranteed to be a backwater compared to Chicago, but then again, Chicago is a mystical hub.
 
And this brings me to the next question that I don't think canon Dresden lore has an answer to: let's say you summon a demon and bind them into your service for a year and a day, bartering away half of your name and the memory of your first kiss. This is a general "be my servant/bodyguard and carry out the tasks I set for you" summoning, no specific goal in mind. That, in principle, isn't Lawbreaking, I think. Now, let's say six months into the deal, something happens and you order the demon to go and murder somebody. For the sake of the argument let's assume that the demon / being you summoned is not bound by "can't harm mortals" rules of non-interference. Are you breaking the Laws here? Or does the demon doing the deed provide the protection against corruption, ironically enough?
I think the Dresden Files metaphysics are pretty clear on this one; that's not Lawbreaking. The reason for the Laws is that accomplishing something with magic in general as a human requires absolute conviction in the rightness of doing so, which can easily warp the user's psyche with runaway feedback loops. It is right and proper for you to X with magic so you X with magic more often thereby pushing your mind even more in that direction until you reflexively solve all problems with your X-shaped magical hammer.

By its very nature, any action taken without the gathering and exertion of magic-backed will cannot have this problem. If your magic is basically a preparatory step in accomplishing your goal instead of the thing that directly accomplishes it, you can't feedback loop into the goal (instead at worst you feedback into the non-illegal prepwork). The biggest canon example of this is obviously the Warden swords; enchanting murder weapons is fine while magical murder is not fine. Similarly, summoning murderers should be fine while murdering is not fine. I believe there's a character called Binder who does just that, actually- a summoning-specialized mercenary sorcerer. Harry doesn't like him but he doesn't call him a Lawbreaker either.
 
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Are you breaking the Laws here? Or does the demon doing the deed provide the protection against corruption, ironically enough?

I think you're actually in the clear legally their. Binder uses summons from the nevernever to kill people with guns and their own innate strength as a career, and the wardens form hunt him down like a dog.

That said, the white council isn't an AI with an irrational need to follow the law as written. If you deliberately cooperate with outsiders who've already slipped in, or start hurting lots of mortals with a loophole, they'll probably stomp your face in on general principle.


We don't actually know that. I mean, we haven't contacted anyone from the local community yet. And yes, it's almost guaranteed to be a backwater compared to Chicago, but then again, Chicago is a mystical hub.
I think we can infer it from the way the cult appeared to have sought it out, and that the red court sent 18 guys to set up shop here. Could be they cut a deal, but if there was significant supernatural competition I'd expect them to strenuously object to reds moving in, hunting in their territory, and taking over parts of the mortal authorities in their area.
 
None of this, and nothing of your vote in general that I can see addresses the meat of the problem: what do we do to gain access to dr. Niemi and how do we handle the meeting (ie intimidate him, knock him out and abduct him, etc).
Yes, thats deliberate.
Because the other actions previously stated will (probably)alter the optimal choice of actions. Molly might as well allow her father run point on this, and react, because this is the sort of thing Knights do, amd their reputation matters.

Just like Dresden ran point on their first meeting with Mathews and leaned on the Wardens reputation while .
We haven't used the shell companies for questions yet, and they don't matter once the cult is gone. Taking the credentials and moving stuff around at the layer designed for anonymity using cyber devils seems doable if we're interested in the effort.
Wouldnt work.

There's always paperwork records, and the people and legal firms who set it up. Shell companies just obfuscate.
Unless we are actively, physically involved in running down all records and eliminating the people involved, this isnt reqlly possible.
Besides, we dont know that the staff of the holding company are competent, or capable of operating without direction.

We might just set up things for a massive class action lawsuit instead.
Yeah, but they can do that in their own territory and keep more control of the situation. It's not like young reds are known for self control, and a slip up means getting stomped on away from support.
It's not completely nonviable, but it's probably not worth it unless you're running a specific game.
It belatedly occurs to me that if they thought this was critical? They had no reason to be here.
The Unseelie Accords have provisions for truce contacts. Thats how Ortega challenged Dresden in Death Masks.

They could have dumped this on the White Council whose corporate mission demands they deal with this, or the Fae Courts in the knowledge that the White Council would shut it down, and that the Fae have no love for competitors.
Even the White Court would have been able to get the nursing home shut down.

And that wouldnt have cost them resources. So yeah, I think they are running a game.
Edit:

As an aside, there might be other opportunities here for us after this is over.
A lacking supernatural community leaves lots of openings for enterprising outsiders, and once we clean out the cultists and bat monsters the local competition will be even weaker.

Setting up some remote stuff here might be even easier than trying in Chicago. We could plant cyber devils for industrial espionage, stock games, grey market information trading, and stuff like that without being under the eye of as many people capable of tracking or stopping us.
Eh.
Cleveland doesnt have the supernatural or economic significance of Chicago.
We have no reason to invest additional resources and effort in Cleveland unless we're moving there.

So... thinking more about it - is what they the cultists doing illegal under the White Council Law? The raksha is inside the reality already, so it's not Reaching Beyond the Outer Gates. Summoning various beings and bartering with them is not illegal - Dresden did it while still under the Doom of Damocles, including calling up actual demons. Engineering specific emotions in mortals and murder are (changing others and thou shalt not kill respectively), but, depending on how it's done, it could be a very grey area. And this brings me to the next question that I don't think canon Dresden lore has an answer to: let's say you summon a demon and bind them into your service for a year and a day, bartering away half of your name and the memory of your first kiss. This is a general "be my servant/bodyguard and carry out the tasks I set for you" summoning, no specific goal in mind. That, in principle, isn't Lawbreaking, I think. Now, let's say six months into the deal, something happens and you order the demon to go and murder somebody. For the sake of the argument let's assume that the demon / being you summoned is not bound by "can't harm mortals" rules of non-interference. Are you breaking the Laws here? Or does the demon doing the deed provide the protection against corruption, ironically enough?

If it's the latter, well, I suspect that after we make our kingdom, Harry is going to be summoning a lot of our guys to work for him. He's powerful, and is actually good at summoning magic. And, as their sovereign we could provide him with good price. Starting with "go on a date with us" type of silly stuff, and, more seriously, mentoring and access to White Council lore and resources. In fact, renting our demonic kill squads out to senior White Council members might be a way to establish ourselves politically. There aren't many, if any, factions that would be prepared to work with mortals for morally acceptable prices, like money.
1)Yes it is illegal.
Attempting to free some imprisoned entity which skullfucks mortals just when they see it in their dreams is enough to get you shanked. Let alone that you are using unknowing unwitting mortals as a sacrifice to do so.

As described, the very existence of the cultists breaks Laws 1 to 4: Law 1, against killing with magic(see Fred), Law 2 against transforming others(how they recruit), Law 3 against invading the minds of others(see Nieminen, and how they recruit, and what they've been doing with Iku Turso), and Law 4 against enthralling others(how they recruit).

Furthermore, the canon Cold Case short story demonstrates the White Council keeps eyes on some entities imprisoned inside the Gates. And can get very scorched earth when they discover cultists of the same.

2)Sending a demon or magic construct to kill someone is a Law 1 breach: Thou shall not kill with magic.
A summoned and bound demon certainly qualifies. It was established back in the first book, because it was a plot point that Victor Sells repeatedly tried to do this to Dresden with both magic constructs and summoned demons.

As a contrast, Binder the mercenary mass summons some sort of NeverNever entity, but its not Lawbreaking because his arent bound the same way. So while the Wardens have been eyeing him for over a hundred years, they cant touch him legally.

3)Trust.
The White Council are wizards, and like sensible wizards wont make use of forces they dont either control and cant guarantee.
Let alone the forces of an Infernal Exalt, who might take offense if they get mistreated.

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that I recall something about how summoning or using an inhabitant of a Hell outside of a summoning circle for information is almost certainly grouped under the same general rules as an Outsider breach.
Else they'd have just been dropping them on the Reds since the war started.
 
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Wouldnt work.

There's always paperwork records, and the people and legal firms who set it up. Shell companies just obfuscate.
Unless we
Besides, we dont know that the staff

We might just set up things for a massive class action lawsuit instead
Maybe. My assumption is that stock in the companies that own the stock in the actual operations exist somewhere in the chain of sketchy tax haven banks.

Taking full operational control might end up being more than it's worth, but moving ownership at the level that by design is secretive then draining resources doesn't seem impossible to me.
Eh.
Cleveland doesnt have the supernatural or economic significance of Chicago.
We have no reason to invest additional resources and effort in Cleveland unless we're moving there
That's sort of the draw. I don't want to move there, but remotely screwing with stuff to acquire deniable mundane resources would be easier in an environment with less competition.
 
Maybe. My assumption is that stock in the companies that own the stock in the actual operations exist somewhere in the chain of sketchy tax haven banks.

Taking full operational control might end up being more than it's worth, but moving ownership at the level that by design is secretive then draining resources doesn't seem impossible to me.

That's sort of the draw. I don't want to move there, but remotely screwing with stuff to acquire deniable mundane resources would be easier in an environment with less competition.
1)To my understanding(could be wrong, I have no experience here), shell companies are for obfuscation of the ultimate owners and for tax and legal liability reasons. The records do exist.
Physical and electronic records, both current and backed up.

The most I would expect to achieve would be to confuse the issue for a couple weeks, maybe.
At least at Cyberdevils 2, which is just young professional hacker territory. Not I Am the NSA and All Your Computers Belong To Us.
And the costs of revealing that capability and warning everyone about it doesnt seem to be worth the benefits.

2)I dont really see any mundane resources that are easier for us to acquire remotely in Cleveland than in Chicago.
And in Chicago, our activity wont stand out against the background of everyone else trying to do the same thing in a city whose population is almost 10x that of Cleveland.
 
First of all, I'll preface the following with the statement that I have no doubt that the Wardens would have major P Problems with the cultists. However, while I'll grant the murder being the break of the laws, from the perspective of "mind corrupting magical practice",
As described, the very existence of the cultists breaks Laws 1 to 4: Law 1, against killing with magic(see Fred), Law 2 against transforming others(how they recruit), Law 3 against invading the minds of others(see Nieminen, and how they recruit, and what they've been doing with Iku Turso), and Law 4 against enthralling others(how they recruit).
They (the cultists) don't do the trade. The entity does, from the looks of it. The new recruits transform themselves. They enthrall themselves. And it is legal to barter with demons - Dresden did it while still under the Doom of Damocles.
2)Sending a demon or magic construct to kill someone is a Law 1 breach: Thou shall not kill with magic.
A summoned and bound demon certainly qualifies. It was established back in the first book, because it was a plot point that Victor Sells repeatedly tried to do this to Dresden with both magic constructs and summoned demons.
I will probably need to reread, but weren't those demons summoned and bound for explicit purpose of killing people? That's a breach of the law, yes Which is why I specified a different situation, where someone summons and binds a demon without an intent to kill. The kill order comes later and doesn't involve magic.
Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that I recall something about how summoning or using an inhabitant of a Hell outside of a summoning circle for information is almost certainly grouped under the same general rules as an Outsider breach.
Else they'd have just been dropping them on the Reds since the war started.
That I would like a citation for.
 
I sould think that while doing all these cultisty things is certainly enough to get you strongly disliked by any sane Council Wizard, and propably stopped by the Wardens if the consequences go too big and obvious, it's not technically breaking any of the Big 7 Laws, only those of common sense and human decency.
 
The vote is tied. I'm leaving it up until the morning.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 5, 2022 at 2:56 PM, finished with 69 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X]Plan Audacity
    -[X]Call the three other semifinallists and ask if they saw something
    -[X]Get Soul's Rest building permits/floor plans; they are public records filed with the city. Either cyberdevils or posing as students doing a holiday project for school should be enough
    -[X]Visit Cleveland police station HQ under guise of asking when the next auction for impounded vehicles will happen, and use HMP on police computers
    -[X]Visit where police/press report says Fred was found dead.Use Crown to ask identities of everyone involved in the death there
    -[X]Cyberdevils: Research Doctor Markus Niemi.
    -[X]Get a bath to replenish Essence
    -[X]Have that talk with Doctor Niemi
    --[X]STUNT: "What are the odds the Reds try to jump us after we deal with the Pathfinders?" you ask your father as you lace up your Tims, black mailshirt reassuringly cool on the damp skin underneath your second least favorite flannel shirt. "Two to one" comes the reply after some consideration. "The Red Court has not, to my knowledge, enjoyed a reputation for being overly scrupulous." "Dad says ten to one, sir" offers Lydia, checking the pockets of a familiar jacket for cellphone and knuckles. "He says the Reds have ever been quick to stick knifes in the back of their nominal allies, let alone their enemies. And they're definitely watching the place."
    [X] Have that talk with Doctor Niemi
    [X] Have that talk with Doctor Niemi
    -[X] Use excellency (Subterfuge) to gain access to the doctor without alerting anyone
    --[X] Stunt: You and Lydia enter the Soul's Rest reception area, Michael following you. As you move towards reception, it's easy to act nervous in a way you aren't. A shift in posture, a moment of hesitation where none really exists. By the time you "muster the courage" to ask the receptionist if you could see the director of the facility about admitting your old Nana, she should be firmly convinced there's no risk in it.
    -[X] Use Excellency (Intimidation) when talking to the doctor
    --[X] As you enter the office of your target, his secretary leaving you alone, and closing the door behind you, your presence shifts. It is not a child of a distraught family that stands before him. It is someone who even his master should avoid, if it has enough mind to do so, lest it becomes the sacrifice on the altar of your epic tale. He, either a mortal or something who was once mortal, cannot do so, trapped as he is in the same room with you. The only option left for him is to offer his unconditional assistance.
 
I'm pretty sure summoning a spirit from the Nevernever and sending it to kill someone isn't lawbreaking. The act of magic is the summoning, and as long as it's not from outside the outer gates that's fine.

Victor Sells broke the laws, but not everything he did broke the laws.
 
They (the cultists) don't do the trade. The entity does, from the looks of it. The new recruits transform themselves. They enthrall themselves. And it is legal to barter with demons - Dresden did it while still under the Doom of Damocles.
1)You get charged with bank robbery for driving the getaway car, even if you never enter the bank. Same difference.

2)The new recruits do not. The older ones might, but not the new one.
Read Rose of Autumn's texts again.
Rose of Autumn: /You want answers? You want power? Well then you are in luck they have both, all it is going to cost you is the love of your family, your friends, everyone and everything you have ever cared about, cut right out of your soul. But don't worry, that is a bonus really, once you can't feel anything you won't be sorry when you cut them and bleed them and torture them so that their agony can feed the things that lives behind the curtain, the things that have been here before our slope-forehead caveman ancestors tamed fire. GET OUT!/
Now you feel a lot guilty, you had freaked this lady right out, but if you don't press now it will have all been for nothing.
Seeker of Secrets: /OK, OK, I get it. Listen can you tell me how they hurt you? I have been feeling weird lately/
Rose of Autumn: /They do not take what you do not give, they are like evil genies or like the Devil the Christians would call it, I don't like to use that framework, but it is appropriate for this. It starts out like self help or at least it did the last time I heard about them, cut out your fear of spiders and gain an aptitude for music maybe, something useful, something small. Then they will ask for more and more of your dreams, good and bad and in exchange they can hand out all sorts of things, things you think you want: power, wealth, beauty, revenge, the one thing they never cut out is the desire for more. As you become less you, less human they are going to start asking for proof of loyalty, to isolate you further. That is where hurting people, killing people comes in, the last tethers broken. And then you will be one of them, looking to feed the things that made them. I /

3)Summoning demons for information is permissible for White Council wizards.
Using them as agents, not so much. And if they do shit, you're responsible for their actions.

Furthermore, there are limits to whats permissible.
Note that Dresden has tried to keep the knowledge of his having a Denarian shadow secret, because that would put him on a White Council kill list for trafficking with demons/Fallen.

I will probably need to reread, but weren't those demons summoned and bound for explicit purpose of killing people? That's a breach of the law, yes Which is why I specified a different situation, where so
Doesnt really matter why you summoned them, just as it doesnt matter why you bought a gun or why you got training.

If demons you summoned kill someone in the prosecution of whatever goal you summon them for, you're on the hook. And you'd be very hard pressed to demonstrate that it was an accident even if it was, because demons have a deservedly bad reputation for malice and violence.

If you take a pitbull raised in dogfighting and put it on your lawn, when it mauls a kid or postman you dont get to claim innocence.
At least, thats my understanding.
That I would like a citation for.
Dresden Files RPG Volume 1 Your Story
Pg 245
Does demon summoning break the 7th Law
The answer is: usually not. Compared to the Outdiders, most demons a wizard might summon are locals, though some might have notions about how it would be a grand thing to hoof it over to the Outer Gates and kick them open with a big welcoming party.

Demons are locals in the sense they're natives of the NeverNever which is a part of our reality.

Its still risky. Many times Outsiders have masqueraded as standard spirits and demons, so the White Council tends to frown on summoning demons, unless they are quite confident in the wizard's competence and judgement(and how often does that happen really?). As a rule of thumb the Council sees it as a privilege - a slim privilege - allowed to its own members, but off limits for the rest of the supernatural practitioners out there. So even though demon summoning isnt directly in violation of the Seventh Law or any other, the Wardens get real antsy about amateurs messing around with it. Even non-Outsider demons are dangerous in their own right.

Think of this like licensing on explosive compounds. If you know what you're doing, have a legitimate reason for their use(construction,demolition,mining etc) and you know how to be cautious, you can get them and you'll have official and limited(occasionally supervised) approval to use them. If, on the other hsnd, youre just some guy who likes storing a few kilos of plastique in his garage, the authorities will not be at all amused to find out about your hobby.

Page 285
While information gathering is something of a grey practice, summoning a demon and putting it into service to kill is a clear-cut case of black magic(there's a straight line of connection between the intent to kill and the summoning of the demon; cue the First Law.)

Dresden Files RPG Volume 2 Our World
Page 75
The Old Ones are a race of gods or demons that once ruled the mortal world but they have been cast down and locked away from reality behind the Outer Gates. The White Council has instituted an "instantly punishable by death" Law of Magic against contacting them. Outsiders are the servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones.

I sould think that while doing all these cultisty things is certainly enough to get you strongly disliked by any sane Council Wizard, and propably stopped by the Wardens if the consequences go too big and obvious, it's not technically breaking any of the Big 7 Laws, only those of common sense and human decency.
Nah.
That is true for lots of cults; Charity's cult leader got a Warden visit and warning but wasnt breaking any Laws at that point.

The Pathfinders however just by existing breach multiple Laws.
They are in the same category as the Alaskan cultists in Cold Case who were trying to raise a Old One sleeping/imprisoned at the bottom of the ocean. The ones that Ramirez and Winter Lady Molly wiped out.
 
I'm pretty sure summoning a spirit from the Nevernever and sending it to kill someone isn't lawbreaking. The act of magic is the summoning, and as long as it's not from outside the outer gates that's fine.
Victor Sells broke the laws, but not everything he did broke the laws.
Thats pretty clearly black magic, and the Wardens will give you the chop for it if they catch you.
 
The Pathfinders however just by existing breach multiple Laws.
They are in the same category as the Alaskan cultists in Cold Case who were trying to raise a Old One sleeping/imprisoned at the bottom of the ocean. The ones that Ramirez and Winter Lady Molly wiped out.
This old monster is propably not an Outsider or one of the Old Gods connected to them?
Just a big Fey-like monster out there.

I see no more proof that it is an Outsider than I see for Dragons or any other weird magical creature that preys on humans out there.
 
Using them as agents, not so much.
I'd like a citation for that. The citations you provided don't say that. Only that demon summoning, as opposed to fae summoning, is a restricted practice on account of how dangerous it is.
If demons you summoned kill someone in the prosecution of whatever goal you summon them for, you're on the hook. And you'd be very hard pressed to demonstrate that it was an accident even if it was, because demons have a deservedly bad reputation for malice and violence.
We are talking past each other. When I said "breach of the Laws" I meant "magical practice that inherently corrupts the mind of a mortal who uses it". When you said "breach of the Laws" I believe you meant "magical practice that will get you killed / taken in by the Wardens". We are both right, I think, in that summoning a demon butler, who then murders a mundane thief some six months later won't corrupt your soul, but will get you at least a meeting with senior council, if not an outright head chopping. Same as with making a magical sword and then going out and cosplaying a highlander.
Note that Dresden has tried to keep the knowledge of his having a Denarian shadow secret, because that would put him on a White Council kill list for trafficking with demons/Fallen.
And yet, he summoned a demon and traded part of his name to it while under the Doom of Damocles.

Point is, if the practice itself is not inherently corruptive, and I think it's clear that as long as you aren't summoning a demon with intent to kill someone (in which case yes, the intent to murder someone is what's corruptive, not the demon summoning) it's not, then we could, in fact, after establishing trust with White Council, and getting our kingdom, trade with them (using magically binding summoning contracts) for demon kill teams / bodyguard details / other demonic services.
 
Point is, if the practice itself is not inherently corruptive, and I think it's clear that as long as you aren't summoning a demon with intent to kill someone (in which case yes, the intent to murder someone is what's corruptive, not the demon summoning) it's not, then we could, in fact, after establishing trust with White Council, and getting our kingdom, trade with them (using magically binding summoning contracts) for demon kill teams / bodyguard details / other demonic services.
I wonder if this is part of how the blackstaff (as in the artifact itself) functions. The corruption is supposed to be rooted in the bone deep certainty need for magic, so slurping it out like it's some sort of chemical contamination seems weird. A bound entity that you feed power, then in a separate action order it to do something that ends with laws being broken.

Seems like the sort of rules lawyering that wizards appreciate.
 
I wonder if this is part of how the blackstaff (as in the artifact itself) functions. The corruption is supposed to be rooted in the bone deep certainty need for magic, so slurping it out like it's some sort of chemical contamination seems weird. A bound entity that you feed power, then in a separate action order it to do something that ends with laws being broken.

Seems like the sort of rules lawyering that wizards appreciate.
Speaking of protecting mortals from the effects of breaking the Laws - Heart Carving Wind, which amputates parts of the target's soul and heart, and can establish taboos in the target's mind. Establishing a "it's ok to break the Law (sometimes)" or "breaking the Laws can be justified" coupled with "I can remain uncorrupted after breaking the Laws" taboos might go a long way towards rehabilitating warlocks.
 
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The reason for the laws doesn't just seem to be the mental feedback effect, but also metaphysical backlash from using the energies of Earth's life to do something opposed to their nature.
 
Speaking of protecting mortals from the effects of breaking the Laws - Heart Carving Wind, which amputates parts of the target's soul and heart, and can establish taboos in the target's mind. Establishing a "it's ok to break the Law (sometimes)" or "breaking the Laws can be justified" coupled with "I can remain uncorrupted after breaking the Laws" might go a long way towards rehabilitating warlocks.
I think you'd need to do the reverse and cut out the parts that think it's okay to break the laws here.

That said, it treads on very touchy ground with Molly's past and her ability to work with the white council. Remember that they don't know what an exalt is, and their correct belief in our immunity to the laws is based on an IC assumption. If we start trying to solve problems with mind control we'll shake faith in that assumption at best.

I'd rather just damn them to our hell to let our demons and mortal mages try rehabilitation in an environment where no one can permanently die and everyone is clued in to the supernatural.
 
We are talking past each other. When I said "breach of the Laws" I meant "magical practice that inherently corrupts the mind of a mortal who uses it". When you said "breach of the Laws" I believe you meant "magical practice that will get you killed / taken in by the Wardens". We are both right, I think, in that summoning a demon butler, who then murders a mundane thief some six months later won't corrupt your soul, but will get you at least a meeting with senior council, if not an outright head chopping. Same as with making a magical sword and then going out and cosplaying a highlander.
Yeah, it's important to remember that the actual effects of engaging in black magic are very distinct from "things that the White Council will kill you over", because the White Council has its own motivations and is inclined to serve them first. As a human organization, they are both flawed and inclined to bend the rules to the benefit of their members; "do as I say not as I do" is the order of the day when it comes to enforcement and the more closely you look at the metaphysics involved the more you can easily identify locations where their actions aren't backed up by the supposed reasoning behind them, but rather by expedience, self-interest, or paranoia.

Which is not to say that anyone else would do a better job, because no one else does the job at all. But if we're trying to consider any situation carefully it's important to keep the distinction in mind.

Point is, if the practice itself is not inherently corruptive, and I think it's clear that as long as you aren't summoning a demon with intent to kill someone (in which case yes, the intent to murder someone is what's corruptive, not the demon summoning) it's not, then we could, in fact, after establishing trust with White Council, and getting our kingdom, trade with them (using magically binding summoning contracts) for demon kill teams / bodyguard details / other demonic services.
Considering that the demons Molly is tied into are very distinct metaphysically from the kind of demons that are usually thought of when Western people talk about them (including in the Dresden Files), it seems more reasonable to treat her kingdom as more like any other group of organized supernatural beings native to the nevernever than flagging them with demon-rules. No one's going to go after a practitioner for contracting the svartalves or loa or what have you for just about any service within the entity's abilities (though they might go after you for the service itself, the act of using contractors for it is inoffensive). We could probably reasonably expect (or argue for) that sort of treatment because the wariness of demons specifically is founded based on a well-founded understanding that they are inherently hostile entities, and depending upon the choices made when creating our kingdoms, its denizens will not be.
 
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I think you'd need to do the reverse and cut out the parts that think it's okay to break the laws here.
That's what I meant, sorry. I'll edit it. I meant, establishing the taboos on these thoughts.
Considering that the demons Molly is tied into are very distinct metaphysically from the kind of demons that are usually thought of when Western people talk about them (including in the Dresden Files), it seems more reasonable to treat her kingdom as more like any other group of organized supernatural beings native to the nevernever than flagging them with demon-rules. No one's going to go after a practitioner for contracting the svartalves or loa or what have you for just about any service within the entity's abilities (though they might go after you for the service itself, the act of using contractors for it is inoffensive). We could probably reasonably expect (or argue for) that sort of treatment because the wariness of demons specifically is founded based on a well-founded understanding that they are inherently hostile entities, and depending upon the choices made when creating our kingdoms, its denizens will not be.
Indeed. And, depending on how the story goes, we might actually swing Uriel and/or Mab confirming our words.
 
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